German push to ban combustion-engine cars by 2030 wins support

[avb3]

Interesting short article from Reuters. Considering how important the auto industry is to Germany, and as the article relates:

"A switch to sales of only zero-emission cars puts thousands of German auto industry jobs at risk since the powertrain of an electric car requires only a tenth of the staff to be assembled when compared with a combustion-engined equivalent, which needs more workers to assemble cylinders, spark plugs, and gearboxes."

I wonder how they are going to address those job losses? Still, with Tesla and others leading the charge, including in delivery trucks (not long haul yet) to electric, it is a buggy whip situation for some sectors of the economy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-au...nvironmentNews

[play.soccer]

Bye bye BMW Benz Audi.

[3blade]

They voted for Merkel. Why does this situation sound familiar?

Anyway, I doubt it will come to fruition unless they plan to build enough Chernobyls to glow like a leftard in a welfare line.

[rugatika]

What entertaining times we live in. Better than anything on TV, that's for sure.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by 3blade

They voted for Merkel. Why does this situation sound familiar?

Anyway, I doubt it will come to fruition unless they plan to build enough Chernobyls to glow like a leftard in a welfare line.

The article says it has cross-party support.

[Imagehunter]

A much bigger issue than the job situation will be rolling blackouts and people starting to loot and riot when it gets to that.

The energy network in Germany is a mess, they put hundreds of windmills in a national park in Northern Germany to provide 'green energy'. Only when the things where up and running they started working on the issues on how to get that energy on land and distributed, which is not solved yet. The power grid does not allow the distribution of energy produced in the North to be sent to the South when required, if the South needs energy, neighbors help, in case of France, with good old nuclear energy.

Unless the energy providers renew the network, which is to doubt since they left it to rot way past its due date (some lines are 20yrs+ past renewal) in the last decades, and extend it, there will most likely be not enough energy to power all the fancy electric cars anyway. Good thing Germany has over 1 million horses

Keep in mind tho that there is a humongous difference in the social systems between Germany and Canada. You cannot and don't have to get homeless in Germany, the government will pay for you. Not just 9 months or what the maximum is in Canada, they pay until you do your last fart. Rent, food, clothes, even phone and dog tax.

The system is already at the point of beyond retarded, which is one reason why I took the chance when I got asked by the company I work for if I wanted to move here from Germany. Wages got so low now that in more and more cases going to work doesn't make financially sense for some families, as they would get less money when they work compared to what the government pays them when they have no job. Those who still have work or do work pay up to 50% of their paycheck to fund all that craziness.

So even if it should get to that point in 2030, a million more or less unemployed won't make a big difference. Most manufacturers have cut their true own staff down anyway and is using hired workers through companies hiring these temporaries out. Germans are used to unemployment rates of up to or over 20% in certain areas.

[Arty]

Originally Posted by play.soccer

Bye bye BMW Benz Audi.

Nope, they'll just migrate to a newer technology. BMW and Benz have already introduced modern electric or hybrid based vehicles.

The only long faces will be on oil executives who will have to migrate over to a more efficient use of resources such as making petrochemicals/plastics with it, instead of burning it just to push vehicles around.

It's a joy to drive a strong electric vehicle. High, constant torque right from rest, and substantially reduced weight. No gearbox, no complicated heavy engine, no fuel weight, simpler transmissions, and far less maintenance.

And very small or no batteries, with the right technology. On heavily travelled routes, you'd embed power transmission antennas in structures or under the road surface. Then you'd pick up that power in your vehicle using a receiver antenna. Sort of like charging an electric toothbrush, but using a more advanced resonant electro-magnetic field.

https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium....-coupling.html
http://witricity.com/technology/witricity-the-basics/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resona...ctive_coupling
http://spectrum.ieee.org/transportat...-never-plug-in

Of course, there's still the modern direct-contact electric train technology used everywhere [except here ]. Not exactly new stuff anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfsS5iily3k

There's still places for internal combustion of course, such as airplanes or off-road & remote use. But using a 3-ton steel IC vehicle costing $50K just to drive several blocks to pick up a coffee & doughnut is getting a bit old.

[JimPS]

Originally Posted by Arty

Nope, they'll just migrate to a newer technology. BMW and Benz have already introduced modern electric or hybrid based vehicles.

The only long faces will be on oil executives who will have to migrate over to a more efficient use of resources such as making petrochemicals/plastics with it, instead of burning it just to push vehicles around.

It's a joy to drive a strong electric vehicle. High, constant torque right from rest, and substantially reduced weight. No gearbox, no complicated heavy engine, no fuel weight, simpler transmissions, and far less maintenance.

And very small or no batteries, with the right technology. On heavily travelled routes, you'd embed power transmission antennas in structures or under the road surface. Then you'd pick up that power in your vehicle using a receiver antenna. Sort of like charging an electric toothbrush, but using a more advanced resonant electro-magnetic field.

https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium....-coupling.html
http://witricity.com/technology/witricity-the-basics/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resona...ctive_coupling
http://spectrum.ieee.org/transportat...-never-plug-in

Of course, there's still the modern direct-contact electric train technology used everywhere [except here ]. Not exactly new stuff anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfsS5iily3k

There's still places for internal combustion of course, such as airplanes or off-road & remote use. But using a 3-ton steel IC vehicle costing $50K just to drive several blocks to pick up a coffee & doughnut is getting a bit old.

Good post.

And a Europe lead by Germany does not want the Third World War fought with Russia and China on the European continent over stupid wars and conflicts in the Mideast, all in the name of US hegemony and preserving the petrodollar.

US Mideast destabilization has brought way too many migrants to Europe seeking refuge from constant wars and they have had enough of this silly game.

I only hope the Russians and Chinese have cooler heads than either of the two incoming US Presidential candidate clowns and the world can somehow avoid economic meltdown and nuclear war. The nuclear `good time boys`are ready, willing and able to bring it all down over oil.

[Twist]

Originally Posted by rugatika

What entertaining times we live in. Better than anything on TV, that's for sure.

No doubt.

Good luck paying for this. Didn't they just let a million immigrants from "Syria" in? Hahahahahaha where are they planning on getting the money for this circus now?

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by Arty

Nope, they'll just migrate to a newer technology. BMW and Benz have already introduced modern electric or hybrid based vehicles.

The only long faces will be on oil executives who will have to migrate over to a more efficient use of resources such as making petrochemicals/plastics with it, instead of burning it just to push vehicles around.

It's a joy to drive a strong electric vehicle. High, constant torque right from rest, and substantially reduced weight. No gearbox, no complicated heavy engine, no fuel weight, simpler transmissions, and far less maintenance.

And very small or no batteries, with the right technology. On heavily travelled routes, you'd embed power transmission antennas in structures or under the road surface. Then you'd pick up that power in your vehicle using a receiver antenna. Sort of like charging an electric toothbrush, but using a more advanced resonant electro-magnetic field.

https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium....-coupling.html
http://witricity.com/technology/witricity-the-basics/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resona...ctive_coupling
http://spectrum.ieee.org/transportat...-never-plug-in

Of course, there's still the modern direct-contact electric train technology used everywhere [except here ]. Not exactly new stuff anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfsS5iily3k

There's still places for internal combustion of course, such as airplanes or off-road & remote use. But using a 3-ton steel IC vehicle costing $50K just to drive several blocks to pick up a coffee & doughnut is getting a bit old.

Technology changes all the time, pigeons, mail, telegraph, phones, mobile phones, smartphones. Iceboxes, fridges - take any aspect of life and you will find a never ending chain of successful innovations and better technologies.
There is one major difference between these successful innovations and a mess we have on hands with "green" movement/energy.
This difference is that none of these successful technologies had to be forced into adaption or heavily subsidized or had to have a highly uneven playing field to be accepted (taxes on competitors, laws, bans and such). To be accepted technology actually has to better, no laws, bans will change it in a long run, it's not only stupid to do so, it is actually harmful for new possible innovations we may not even think about today.
None of the "new" technologies a certain person trumps here on a daily basis is much different than what I learned about 35 years ago - wave energy (1890), wind energy (since before Christ, talks about electricity for as long as I remember), tidal energy stations since 1960's.
The only more technology is a political technology of how to move money around against and business or common sense.
Don't get me wrong - these traditional "new" technologies may eventually incrementally become better to replace what we have now, and the way we will know this is when all the stupid political talks, laws and money redistribution schemes will come to an end. All of the big energy companies will be rushing into a new business, there is no "oil conspiracy" these companies will go with their money anywhere if it will make them more money.

[BigRedJeep]

Looking forward to electric vehicles. The torque a motor can produce is unreal. The chemicals and materials used to produce these sure aren't environmentally friendly however. And lithium just doesn't spontaneously appear. It may spontaneously disappear though, as well with your garage usually


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bushrat]

And the average price for a classic combustion engine car at a Barrett Jackson Auction will be about a half billion dollars...........

[Arty]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

And the average price for a classic combustion engine car at a Barrett Jackson Auction will be about a half billion dollars...........

Meh. That's what they said about the average steam engine.

Maybe if the auctioned piece was some mint Mercedes V12 with a decent wiring harness or a late Rolls V12 or even a 1937 Horch 853A it might generate some interest for bored rich people.

There's always going to be some characters with more money than brains, but that generally won't drive the technological direction of society.

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by Arty

Meh. That's what they said about the average steam engine.

Maybe if the auctioned piece was some mint Mercedes V12 with a decent wiring harness or a late Rolls V12 or even a 1937 Horch 853A it might generate some interest for bored rich people.

There's always going to be some characters with more money than brains, but that generally won't drive the technological direction of society.

Steam engine was never banned though, it just lost a competition.
If IC engine have required a law to stay in the market, steam trucks would have ruled the highways now.

[Arty]

Originally Posted by BigRedJeep

Looking forward to electric vehicles. The torque a motor can produce is unreal. The chemicals and materials used to produce these sure aren't environmentally friendly however. And lithium just doesn't spontaneously appear. It may spontaneously disappear though, as well with your garage usually [...]

That's part of my point. Total dependance on high-performance batteries, typically lithium based, is just replacing one headache with another. 'Rare earth' elements are called that for a reason.

Transportation will eventually have to take energy from along high-use corridors in real time, instead of trying to carrying it around, in order to be sustainable.

The energy content of high-density capacitors or even nuclear fission/fusion might eventually provide a viable alternative to lithium, but not in the next few lifetimes. Tethered and semi-tethered electrical vehicles along high-use corridors with present technology will have to provide that service.

[nick0danger]

what are we gonna heat home and water with?

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by nick0danger

what are we gonna heat home and water with?

People in Europe start freezing to death, when the temperature drops a little below freezing, picture that scenario in Canada.

Grizz

[Grizzly Adams]

'Rare earth' elements are called that for a reason.


And China has a stranglehold on the market.

Grizz

[Digger1]

Hmmm. I just read an article by a power company guy saying how, if in Victoria for example, half the people switched over to electric cars, the city power grid would have to be rebuilt to handle the draw to the chargers in homes. Interesting.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by avb3

Interesting short article from Reuters. Considering how important the auto industry is to Germany, and as the article relates:

"A switch to sales of only zero-emission cars puts thousands of German auto industry jobs at risk since the powertrain of an electric car requires only a tenth of the staff to be assembled when compared with a combustion-engined equivalent, which needs more workers to assemble cylinders, spark plugs, and gearboxes."

I wonder how they are going to address those job losses? Still, with Tesla and others leading the charge, including in delivery trucks (not long haul yet) to electric, it is a buggy whip situation for some sectors of the economy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-au...nvironmentNews

Lol. Those Germans are such jokers! Trule jesters of our time!
What you should be asking is how are they going to address the problem of the size and weight of a minimum 500HP electric motor required to move a trailer full of product? Or the energy it uses?
True jokers indeed...

[avb3]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Lol. Those Germans are such jokers! Trule jesters of our time!
What you should be asking is how are they going to address the problem of the size and weight of a minimum 500HP electric motor required to move a trailer full of product? Or the energy it uses?
True jokers indeed...

Those long haul trucks are already in the concept stage:

https://electrek.co/2016/05/12/nikol...truck-concept/

Hydrogen/Electric:

https://nikolamotor.com/

And the economics behind another concept:
https://www.trucks.com/2016/09/01/el...ks-profitable/

[Bergerboy]

Electricity will have to really drop in price to make any of the high demand pieces of equipment cheaper to run on line power. I have been around big drilling rigs (diesel electric) that had the option to run on line power but instead chose to use the diesel engines to create electricity to run the rig as it was cheaper by a long shot.

Anybody ever notice Andy only posts stuff that will upset the AO herd?

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Electricity will have to really drop in price to make any of the high demand pieces of equipment cheaper to run on line power. I have been around big drilling rigs (diesel electric) that had the option to run on line power but instead chose to use the diesel engines to create electricity to run the rig as it was cheaper by a long shot.

Anybody ever notice Andy only posts stuff that will upset the AO herd?

He's evangelizing.

[JimPS]

Originally Posted by Newview01

He's evangelizing.

Or educating - depending on your current state of mind.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Anybody ever notice Andy only posts stuff that will upset the AO herd?

Doesn't upset me. I find it entertaining and illustrative. I wish he'd post more.

[Arty]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Electricity will have to really drop in price to make any of the high demand pieces of equipment cheaper to run on line power. I have been around big drilling rigs (diesel electric) that had the option to run on line power but instead chose to use the diesel engines to create electricity to run the rig as it was cheaper by a long shot.
[...]

And I've been working in big plants for years with prime movers running almost exclusively on electricity, either sourced from local gas or steam turbines, or from the grid. Usually sending excess production to the grid. But they still seem to make tons of money. So what?

Do you realize how insane it would be to have a little chainsaw or diesel motor attached to every pump, conveyor or mixer out there? And rig up a little fuel delivery line to every one of those (or having operators running around with gas cans to top them all up every shift). Not to mention exhaust headers running all over the place? Yet that's the situation we have now with private transportation systems in built-up areas.

Tethered or semi-tethered corridor transportation would have their own power stations or sub-stations due to the kind of electricity they would need. It's not something that would draw from several thousand 120VAC residential outlets.

The tradeoff will always be between a large efficient central generating stations and lossy distribution infrastructure, vs inefficient chemical to mechanical reactors (engines) and hydrocarbon extraction, refining and distribution system. With all the upgrades and maintenance each one requires. Sometimes one kind makes more sense than another, depending where & when it's implemented.

Banning one or the other outright is nuts, but the trend will continue towards electric.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by nick0danger

what are we gonna heat home and water with?

That will be regulated, you will be allowed one shower a week and the max temperature it can be heated to is 40 deg. You will only be allowed to heat your home one day a week, the same day you take your shower you will also be allowed to have a hot meal.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Arty

There's always going to be some characters with more money than brains

That is what Barrett Jackson is dependant on, that and copious amounts of alcohol.

[Arty]

Originally Posted by nick0danger

what are we gonna heat home and water with?

Interesting question. Because the convenience value for residential use of certain energy forms is much higher than for industry or gross transportation.

That means, I'd rather use natural gas or electricity for residential heating than have to lug coal sacks into the basement once a month. I've actually lived once in an area that used coal heating - what an unbelievable stench. You really, really don't want that going on all day long.

Best to leave coal for industry to deal with, and distribute that electricity over the long haul and maybe heating steam over the short haul. Instead of burning off easily-drilled gas in industrial boilers or gas turbines. Gas might be cheap now, but wasn't so cheap not so long ago.

[nick0danger]

Originally Posted by Arty

Interesting question. Because the convenience value for residential use of certain energy forms is much higher than for industry or gross transportation.

That means, I'd rather use natural gas or electricity for residential heating than have to lug coal sacks into the basement once a month. I've actually lived once in an area that used coal heating - what an unbelievable stench. You really, really don't want that going on all day long.

Best to leave coal for industry to deal with, and distribute that electricity over the long haul and maybe heating steam over the short haul. Instead of burning off easily-drilled gas in industrial boilers or gas turbines. Gas might be cheap now, but wasn't so cheap not so long ago.

What im getting at, is every home and building (towers in Downtown calgary would million dollar electrical retro fits) would need to upgrade there electrical system to handle the increased draw. The power system would need Billions in upgrades to handle the draw. Greenies and these politicians are way to short sighted.