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02-03-2019, 06:20 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNP
I gave you and out and you threw it away. You don't believe the link I posted? You're a special...…………………...guy.
Can someone else explain it to him? I think he needs to know...
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How does a side scope work? Also how do you level round? Gravity only works in one direction. Answer those simple question? Just because people aren’t posting doesn’t make you correct. One day you will realize you are wrong. If I can’t wxplain it then you don’t want to learn.
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02-03-2019, 06:41 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
You are wrong. No how many times you try to repeat yourself. Think about this. How does a side mount scope track if you need to be level above the bore?
How do you find level on something round?
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A side mounted scope tracks normally , but since the crosshairs are offset horizontally, it can only be zeroed horizontally at one distance. So you just have to accept that the windage will be slightly out at all but one distance. On the other hand, a scope centered above the bore, can be zeroed at multiple distances.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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02-03-2019, 06:42 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: WMU 303
Posts: 8,497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
How does a side scope work? Also how do you level round? Gravity only works in one direction. Answer those simple question? Just because people aren’t posting doesn’t make you correct. One day you will realize you are wrong. If I can’t wxplain it then you don’t want to learn.
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Andrew. If the scope is not level the only accurate point of reference on the scope will be the centre of the horizontal and vertical hash marks and only for the distance you zeroed it for. If the scope is not level and you are shooting at a distance that is greater than the distance you sighted it in there will be an ever increasing error in horizontal accuracy. The greater the distance the greater the accuracy error horizontally. If the scope is not level the vertical line will not be under the barrel. Canting the rifle does not fix that. Canting does nothing except to rotate the entire rifle/scope setup. The further the scope is off from being horizontally level, the further your horizontal accuracy will be affected. Look at the reticles again in post #42. Look at the crooked reticle. Draw a vertical line from the crosshair to the 600 yard crosshair. You cannot. The line will not be vertical. Since the crosshair is set in the middle of the barrel, the 600 yard crosshair is obviously not. You can't change that by canting the barrel. The scope and the barrel follow each other when you cant the rifle. Those are the facts. You get it now? This and the link I gave you, please understand.
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02-03-2019, 06:46 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 4,273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrongside
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Great idea but will not ship to Kanackastan...so sad, brilliant idea though
__________________
Trades I would interested in:
- Sightron rifle scopes, 4.5x14x42mm or 4x16x42mm
especially! with the HHR reticle. (no duplex pls.)
- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.
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02-03-2019, 06:56 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNP
Andrew. If the scope is not level the only accurate point of reference on the scope will be the centre of the horizontal and vertical hash marks and only for the distance you zeroed it for. If the scope is not level and you are shooting at a distance that is greater than the distance you sighted it in there will be an ever increasing error in horizontal accuracy. The greater the distance the greater the accuracy error horizontally. If the scope is not level the vertical line will not be under the barrel. Canting the rifle does not fix that. Canting does nothing except to rotate the entire rifle/scope setup. The further the scope is off from being horizontally level, the further your horizontal accuracy will be affected. Look at the reticles again in post #42. Look at the crooked reticle. Draw a vertical line from the crosshair to the 600 yard crosshair. You cannot. The line will not be vertical. Since the crosshair is set in the middle of the barrel, the 600 yard crosshair is obviously not. You can't change that by canting the barrel. The scope and the barrel follow each other when you cant the rifle. Those are the facts. You get it now? This and the link I gave you, please understand.
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The scope is level. The rifle is canted. The scope needs to be level, the rifle does not. This is why levels go on Scopes and not on rifles. If I mount a scope on my rifle and it is canted left and I then proceed to put a level on the scope that is perfectly level to the crosshairs that scope is now level. If I take that scope off the rifle with the level still attached and you mount it on a rifle that is canted right and zero it that scope, when level to the target, will still track correctly and you will hit you 1000 yard target.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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02-03-2019, 06:56 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNP
Andrew. If the scope is not level the only accurate point of reference on the scope will be the centre of the horizontal and vertical hash marks and only for the distance you zeroed it for. If the scope is not level and you are shooting at a distance that is greater than the distance you sighted it in there will be an ever increasing error in horizontal accuracy. The greater the distance the greater the accuracy error horizontally. If the scope is not level the vertical line will not be under the barrel. Canting the rifle does not fix that. Canting does nothing except to rotate the entire rifle/scope setup. The further the scope is off from being horizontally level, the further your horizontal accuracy will be affected. Look at the reticles again in post #42. Look at the crooked reticle. Draw a vertical line from the crosshair to the 600 yard crosshair. You cannot. The line will not be vertical. Since the crosshair is set in the middle of the barrel, the 600 yard crosshair is obviously not. You can't change that by canting the barrel. The scope and the barrel follow each other when you cant the rifle. Those are the facts. You get it now? This and the link I gave you, please understand.
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No you are wrong. Both of you! You are showing a picture of canted cross hairs. Not a canted rifle! As long as crosshairs and target are level the rifle will track vertically. I am not going to argue anymore. Go out and try it. You will see for yourself.
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02-03-2019, 07:07 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 4,273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
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Be sure to remember that Mr. Tubbs is a TARGET shooter so he knows his exact distance to target EVERY TIME so if he cants his rifle or not, he is able to correct for any errors from misalignment of the cross hairs by adjusting the turrets.
__________________
Trades I would interested in:
- Sightron rifle scopes, 4.5x14x42mm or 4x16x42mm
especially! with the HHR reticle. (no duplex pls.)
- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.
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02-03-2019, 07:09 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter
Be sure to remember that Mr. Tubbs is a TARGET shooter so he knows his exact distance to target EVERY TIME so if he cants his rifle or not, he is able to correct for any errors from misalignment of the cross hairs by adjusting the turrets.
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Un freaking believable. A level scope doesn’t care what the target distance is. It doesn’t matter. Mr Tubb cants his rifle, not his scope.
I’ve got a great idea, how about get out in the field and try these theories.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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02-03-2019, 07:15 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 4,273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
Un freaking believable. A level scope doesn’t care what the target distance is. It doesn’t matter. Mr Tubb cants his rifle, not his scope.
I’ve got a great idea, how about get out in the field and try these theories.
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You fight with everyone on this forum as if you are the GOD of rifle knowledge if you used your head for something besides a place for your white sunglasses you might actually learn something.
__________________
Trades I would interested in:
- Sightron rifle scopes, 4.5x14x42mm or 4x16x42mm
especially! with the HHR reticle. (no duplex pls.)
- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.
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02-03-2019, 07:17 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter
You fight with everyone on this forum as if you are the GOD of rifle knowledge if you used your head for something besides a place for your white sunglasses you might actually learn something.
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I talk about things on this forum that I KNOW. I keep my bloody mouth shut about things I don’t. Trade secret there.
Go into the field and prove me wrong.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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02-03-2019, 07:25 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 4,273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
I talk about things on this forum that I KNOW. I keep my bloody mouth shut about things I don’t. Trade secret there.
Go into the field and prove me wrong.
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Please feel free to drive down and show me a bit of your field "knowledge" That is assuming your old enough to drive.
__________________
Trades I would interested in:
- Sightron rifle scopes, 4.5x14x42mm or 4x16x42mm
especially! with the HHR reticle. (no duplex pls.)
- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.
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02-03-2019, 07:31 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter
Please feel free to drive down and show me a bit of your field "knowledge" That is assuming your old enough to drive.
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Call David Tubb and tell him what he doesn’t know.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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02-03-2019, 07:50 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 4,273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
Call David Tubb and tell him what he doesn’t know.
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Do me and the rest of us a favor take two of your pencil crayons make an X with them ...got it...?? now hold them straight vertically and horizontally at the same time....got it...now raises your hand up and down ...result, point of impact goes higher or lower. not left or right.
Now tilt the crayons 10 degrees right or left....NOW this is the hard part, raise your hand again but not straight line up and down but along the path that your vertical crayon moves, in other words 10 degrees up and to the left or 10 degrees up to right.....does the bullet impact in a different spot?????? any questions?? Next.
__________________
Trades I would interested in:
- Sightron rifle scopes, 4.5x14x42mm or 4x16x42mm
especially! with the HHR reticle. (no duplex pls.)
- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.
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02-03-2019, 07:54 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter
Do me and the rest of us a favor take two of your pencil crayons make an X with them ...got it...?? now hold them straight vertically and horizontally at the same time....got it...now raises your hand up and down ...result, point of impact goes higher or lower. not left or right.
Now tilt the crayons 10 degrees right or left....NOW this is the hard part, raise your hand again but not straight line up and down but along the path that your vertical crayon moves, in other words 10 degrees up and to the left or 10 degrees up to right.....does the bullet impact in a different spot?????? any questions?? Next.
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Again, the scope must be level. The rifle not so much. And, mind blowing fact here, if your scope is level and bolted to your rifle the cant (rifle cant) will be exactly the same every time.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
Last edited by Pathfinder76; 02-03-2019 at 08:13 PM.
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02-03-2019, 08:20 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,666
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The center of the cross hairs is the center of the cross hairs. Canted or plumb won't make a difference unless you're using turrets or a ballistic plex type of reticle. If you're using the old skool hold over method the center remains the same.
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02-03-2019, 08:21 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lethbridge
Posts: 1,813
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So if we label these left to right 1,2,3 image 1 is to be true, along with image 2, but the brunt of discussion is that image 3 is debatable.
Last edited by Off in the Bushes; 02-03-2019 at 08:31 PM.
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02-03-2019, 08:30 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Off in the Bushes
So if we label these left to right 1,2,3 image 1 is to be true, along with image 2, but the brunt of discussion is that image 3 is debatable.
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Is the center of the cross hairs not gonna be the same thru both targets? Think of a red dot. The center is the center.
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02-03-2019, 08:31 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,701
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.
Last edited by marky_mark; 02-03-2019 at 08:43 PM.
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02-03-2019, 08:37 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: AB
Posts: 814
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Guys, Andrew and Chuck are dead nuts correct here. I’ll be the first to admit that I struggled with getting my head around this concept and eventually ended up having to prove it for myself. Tall target tests showed the proof in the pudding.
I think the way I would try and explain this to someone would be to use grid paper for simplicities sake. Draw yourself a reticle. Standard duplex, hold over - whatever your flavour is. This represents your leveled scope and reticle. Pick an arbitrary mark below your reticle and off to the side. This would represent a canted rifle bore. Not to be confused with a canted reticle. Assume the rifle and scope are zeroed to one another. Your canted rifle will be a constant as well as your levelled reticle. Now draw a vertical line coming from the center of your reticle up, representing a hold over whether dialled or using the reticle. Draw a vertical line straight up from your arbitrary mark representing the center of your bore. It will be exactly the same distance center of reticle to center of bore as far up as you care to carry it. Regardless of rifle cant, if your reticle remains level then your cant will also be constant and will follow one another respectively.
Like I said, I’m the first to admit I struggled with it too.
Last edited by Big Lou; 02-03-2019 at 08:40 PM.
Reason: Punctuation
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02-03-2019, 08:39 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
I think the debate is number 2
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No, the debate is not number two.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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02-03-2019, 08:40 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwest Alta
Is the center of the cross hairs not gonna be the same thru both targets? Think of a red dot. The center is the center.
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This is not the debate here.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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02-03-2019, 08:40 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
I think the debate is number 2
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A fourth diagram is needed with a canted rifle and level crosshairs - crosshairs that are consistently level with the use of a level .
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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02-03-2019, 08:44 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat
A fourth diagram is needed with a canted rifle and level crosshairs - crosshairs that are consistently level with the use of a level .
Cat
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Yep
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02-03-2019, 08:44 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lethbridge
Posts: 1,813
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So for arguments sake we can all agree that the left image is indeed going to provide accuracy.
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02-03-2019, 08:46 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lethbridge
Posts: 1,813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat
A fourth diagram is needed with a canted rifle and level crosshairs - crosshairs that are consistently level with the use of a level .
Cat
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isn't that the right image, its labeled "canted hold, level cross hairs"
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02-03-2019, 08:48 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Off in the Bushes
isn't that the right image, its labeled "canted hold, level cross hairs"
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Yes it is.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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02-03-2019, 08:48 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: AB
Posts: 814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Off in the Bushes
isn't that the right image, its labeled "canted hold, level cross hairs"
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Yes it is. But the same zero is being used for all pictures.
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02-03-2019, 08:50 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Off in the Bushes
isn't that the right image, its labeled "canted hold, level cross hairs"
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Take number one and draw a stock on it. Spin the rifle on an angle.your scope is still straight above the circle. Take number 3 and reset to zero. Your scope is centered above the bore. Number 2 has nothing to do with what we are trying to explain.
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02-03-2019, 08:52 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lethbridge
Posts: 1,813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lou
Yes it is. But the same zero is being used for all pictures.
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But isn't that the point of discussion is that the POI changes with the same zero as the rifle or scope becomes canted.
You all are beginning to lose me in this discussion now.
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02-03-2019, 08:52 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Off in the Bushes
isn't that the right image, its labeled "canted hold, level cross hairs"
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Sorry , I’m on my phone and when I tried to expand it , it looked offset not canted!
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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