Lets summarize the ballistics discussions of late then...

[Slicktricker]

I don't have much experience with many calibers but out of my 7mm rem I've used a bunch of different bullets cup and core to Monos light and heavy bullets Farthest track was less then 50 yards.many many drt kills i only shooy 0-400 yards never payed attention to fps velocity or the sd or bc of bullets and still won't all I care about is putting that bullet where it needs to be and tag will be folded

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Beeman3

215 Bergers out of my 300 Win Mag have had incredible results on game. My gun shoots them right at 3000 fps with H1000. It is as close to a perfect match in the 300 Win Mag as you can get. From close up, out to 1000 yds its deadly!

Elite set up there! 308 cal bullets get interesting around 220 grains.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

what cartridge choice comes down to is personal preference for choice of firearm and what make and model you pick sometimes limits cartridge choice. After that, the preferred rifle weight and barrel length you want to carry so that it is effective to suit the cartridge choice. Also important to consider is if you are bothered by using a long action or short action or magnum vs standard. Or if you are bothered by a barrel burner or not. Of course high bc bullets are more efficient at carrying energy to longer ranges, but the longer s.d. bullets also penetrate deeper and dont open up as quickly. a heavier bullet with lower sectional density bullet will open up more on impact. I trade off the b.c. and accept higher recoil of heavier 30 cal bullets versus higher bc higher sd lower recoil, because the heavier 30 cal bullet starts with more muzzle energy at closer distances, and the 30 cal frontal area combined with lower sd means it will open up and dump energy at a higher rate than a higher sd skinnier bullet. If i was constantly going to be shooting at 400 to 500 meters, then the 6.5 creedmoor with its better bc would buck wind better and being more efficient, would be carrying similar energy to 308 at those distances. But the final point is, im willing to have the higher recoil to gain the higher kinetic energy for the majority of my shots on game that are 90% of the time inside of 200m. I want as much energy dumped into the vitals with the widest frontal area mushroom as possible. recoil is the direct result of filling that bullet with the energy. BC is great for long range, it doesnt come into play much for 90% of the hunting distances.

I recently watched a youtube where a guy shot at close range a 140gr 6.5 creedmore beside a 165gr 308 win. The 6.5 creedmoor and the 308 had nearly identical penetration on on each of the tests. The 308 consistently had a noticeably larger hole cutting through, vs the 6.5 had a small skinny hole the whole way until they both stopped at equal distances. It made me think that there is a point where sectional density may get so high that lower velocities dont have the velocity to cause a nice mushroom expansion. I think 2.48 sectional density is excellent for my 308 shooting 2700 fps at the muzzle hitting targets around 10m to 300 meters. Maybe these massively high sd bullets would benefit from higher velocities to open up more. What do you guys think?

I know all of them will kill if proper shot placement into the vitals, but the lack of expansion in that video just got me thinking about bullet expansion physics.

Agree with taking into consideration bullet construction for velocity range! Personally I’d be looking more at the more rapid expansion choices for these slower loads!

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I've got to admit Stinky, you are one patient and persistent fella. Unfortunately there are some audience members who equal your patience and persistence with denial and disbelief.

Those of us who have taken the time and approached this subject with an open mind will be able to ballistically benefit from the math, others seem to want to fight physics with incorrect beliefs and deny facts.

In any case, I'm loving the heck out of shooting my Creedmoor and can't wait until hunting season!

Well said and largely zinger free , look forward to reports on the creedmoor, can't think of a more efficient and versatile cartridge choice for what we do here in Alberta, range or game.

As far as the .223 threads go...if you used a 55 gr ballistic tip load from a .243 you'd be just as far behind to use a similar bullet in a .223 or .22-250. Choose the right s.d. and bullet construction for game intended and you're gtg.

Hopefully more peeps will incorporate s.d. into their searches and comparisons. It is the most accurate penetration gauge we have. Most of north america seems to be fine with s.d.'s of .2 and up on class 2nd class game and .25 and up for 3rd class game then it really simplifies cartridge research and or accurate big picture viewing.

We(north americans) know how to choose appropriate bullet construction for game intended. We also know the appropriate minimum impact velocities for game intended. What we generally do to gauge penetration ability is use ft/lbs and that is not accurate.

Bell/1100 elephants with 6.5 mannlicher/7x57 and s.d.'s over .3 show that. Dead is Dead, make it as spectacular as you like, or be as efficient as you like. You're shoulder might be the determining factor, what do you want to have hit you back to do the job you want down range?

I just want to show that energy is mostly a useless figure. Ft/lbs sounds impressive but it doesn't actually show ability to penetrate an animal. We need to shift the overall understanding to s.d. is the measure to use for that...not ft/lbs. When we do that then we can more accurately compare cartridges.

I get that a bigger hole might make dead quicker and people may want that, but a hole is still a hole and as long as the depth of penetration is there...it's still dead. S.d. shows how deep the hole goes.

A lot of people choose cartridges without actually realizing what they're capable of, and that's ok because most of our choices are more than up to the task of 2nd/3rd class game inside 500 yards so it's moot. I'd rather people know the potential of their cartridges though and understand efficiency a bit more. I think it will be beneficial overall, to the game, to the shooters, as more appropriate choices will be made as they will be educated, not advised from opinion etc.

[KodiakHntr]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

I get that a bigger hole might make dead quicker and people may want that, but a hole is still a hole and as long as the depth of penetration is there...it's still dead. S.d. shows how deep the hole goes.

While I have read most of the thread, I'm thinking you probably came up with a bunch of these theories all on your own didn't you....

SD is a meaningless number for the most part, now that there are different bullet construction types. SD of any bullet of like diameter and weight will be identical. Bullet construction drives penetration and expansion.

In any given bullet diameter you can have 3 or more bullet types, of similar bullet shape, of the same weight, that will have VASTLY different penetration and expansion characteristics.

By your theory, any bullet that has a similar SD will have similar penetration. No?

[Nyksta]

Bullet construction and sectional density work together to get the bullet there.

Foot pounds energy causes temperorary wound cavity damage and mushrooming bullet expansion causes permament wound channel damage.

Temporary wound cavity is 100% dependant on the foot pounds energy stored in the bullet. Thus a heavier 30 cal bullet of the same sectional density at similar velocities as a 6.5 or 243 or 223 caliber will damage more tissue than the lighter bullets, even if they penetrate to the same distance.

Id even argue as you go up in caliber, you get similar penetration with less s.d. because there is more lead going through.

[rem338win]

This day and age bullet construction is far more important than anything else, thank you John Nosler.

The fact is a light monomental like the 145gr LRX driven to 3300-3400fps makes spectacular kills near and far.

This can be accomplished with as little as 65gr of powder in the right cartridge.

Efficiently a 6.5 PRC or 6.5 Rem Mag can do the same with a 127gr LRX.

These rounds penetrate further in my testing than a heavy for calibre high BC 160gr 7mm or 140gr 6.5 at 3000 out of the same cartridge at similar ranges.

Two things stop penetration equally well and dynamically when happening cooperatively: projectile weight loss and frontal area.

And using Bell's experience in the equation you have to be an exceptionally accurate shot (he was nearly superhuman) and you have to be using solids.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Bullet construction and sectional density work together to get the bullet there.

Foot pounds energy causes temperorary wound cavity damage and mushrooming bullet expansion causes permament wound channel damage.

Temporary wound cavity is 100% dependant on the foot pounds energy stored in the bullet. Thus a heavier 30 cal bullet of the same sectional density at similar velocities as a 6.5 or 243 or 223 caliber will damage more tissue than the lighter bullets, even if they penetrate to the same distance.

Id even argue as you go up in caliber, you get similar penetration with less s.d. because there is more lead going through.

.. and I think you would be correct. With the same bullet construction, greater cross sectional area and momentum will do it every time. Often with less terminal velocity.

[Stinky Coyote]

lot of stuff i won't argue there and good info to include in these discussions, which overall are hopefully educational, that's the goal

and while all this extra this or that, damage or otherwise, is fine and explains personal preference....i'm just showing dead is dead, big hole, small hole, whatever...a more accurate way to compare configurations when it comes to 'dead' as compared to another, ft/lbs or momentum may be a very slight part of the equation but the most important given same bullet construction is s.d./impact velocity

ft/lbs can help determine just how spectacular your preference of 'dead' may be

almost all our choices are more than adequate for 95%+ of what we do here in Alberta

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by rem338win

This day and age bullet construction is far more important than anything else, thank you John Nosler.

The fact is a light monomental like the 145gr LRX driven to 3300-3400fps makes spectacular kills near and far.

This can be accomplished with as little as 65gr of powder in the right cartridge.

Efficiently a 6.5 PRC or 6.5 Rem Mag can do the same with a 127gr LRX.

These rounds penetrate further in my testing than a heavy for calibre high BC 160gr 7mm or 140gr 6.5 at 3000 out of the same cartridge at similar ranges.

Two things stop penetration equally well and dynamically when happening cooperatively: projectile weight loss and frontal area.

And using Bell's experience in the equation you have to be an exceptionally accurate shot (he was nearly superhuman) and you have to be using solids.

would love the details of those set ups to compare s.d. between both, i can look up the s.d/b.c. and give me starting muzzle velocities and maybe your experience will actually match what i've been saying? Just need more info pls

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

lot of stuff i won't argue there and good info to include in these discussions, which overall are hopefully educational, that's the goal

and while all this extra this or that, damage or otherwise, is fine and explains personal preference....i'm just showing dead is dead, big hole, small hole, whatever...a more accurate way to compare configurations when it comes to 'dead' as compared to another, ft/lbs or momentum may be a very slight part of the equation but the most important given same bullet construction is s.d./impact velocity

ft/lbs can help determine just how spectacular your preference of 'dead' may be

almost all our choices are more than adequate for 95%+ of what we do here in Alberta

Yes. Dead is Dead. The important thing is when and where. There is delayed mortality and there is instant mortality. For sure, there nothing desirable or spectacular about delayed mortality. It shouldn't require too much math or research to select the best tool for the job. Experience tells us that.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Yes. Dead is Dead. The important thing is when and where. There is delayed mortality and there is instant mortality. For sure, there nothing desirable or spectacular about delayed mortality. It shouldn't require too much math or research to select the best tool for the job. Experience tells us that.

Please tell me what the best tool for the job is. I'll bet you for any one cartridge you try to pick as the best tool I can tell you one that's better. Do you see the flaw in your logic? I think what you mean to say is "It shouldn't require too much math or research to select what my personal idea of "best tool" for the job is, however I understand you may have a different idea of what exactly "best tool" means ".

I shot a bull elk with a 129gr ballistic tip out of a 260rem at around 250yds, took off on a dead run for about 200yds and dropped dead. I shot another bull elk with a 180gr accubond out of a 300wsm at about 180yds, he took off running at a full gallop, never caught up to him for 4 hours and about a quarter mile. In these instances which gun was the best tool? The difference is one was a double lung and the other was only a single. My experience tells me it's more about shot placement than headstamp. Once you have "enough gun" the extra power is wasted.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

There is delayed mortality and there is instant mortality. For sure, there nothing desirable or spectacular about delayed mortality.

Examples?

[Don_Parsons]

Isn't delayed mortality a result of not expiring right way.

I can't offer an example since switching to a big bullet that's going slow. Ha

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Please tell me what the best tool for the job is. I'll bet you for any one cartridge you try to pick as the best tool I can tell you one that's better. Do you see the flaw in your logic? I think what you mean to say is "It shouldn't require too much math or research to select what my personal idea of "best tool" for the job is, however I understand you may have a different idea of what exactly "best tool" means ".

I shot a bull elk with a 129gr ballistic tip out of a 260rem at around 250yds, took off on a dead run for about 200yds and dropped dead. I shot another bull elk with a 180gr accubond out of a 300wsm at about 180yds, he took off running at a full gallop, never caught up to him for 4 hours and about a quarter mile. In these instances which gun was the best tool? The difference is one was a double lung and the other was only a single. My experience tells me it's more about shot placement than headstamp. Once you have "enough gun" the extra power is wasted.

Surely you must have experienced both examples. Most hunters have.

As for me, I'll take any caliber .284 and over with a heavy for cal bullet and limit my range to 250 yds. for most of my larger BG hunting.

My preferences happen to be .338-06, .35 Whelen or 9.3x62 for how, what and where I hunt. Those are just my preferences. Fortunately, I have plenty of other calibers available for other uses. It's all about choices.
There is no replacement for displacement in my world and I have yet to see where anything has been wasted. No room for minimalist theories either.

[Stinky Coyote]

Agree, shot placement is job #1 and the bulk of our cartridge choices are plenty for 95%+ of what we do here in Alberta. A good portion of those have really high shootability in terms of recoil and muzzle blast, far better choices for most.

Some of the most accomplished hunters i've met run a .243 or 6mm rem. They one shot everything for decades. They know their limits and the cartridge limits, sub 300 yards in almost all cases i can recall from chats.

You look at experience like that, then Bell and his elephants and things like why would a 700 nitro express sometimes only knock an elephant out despite 8000+ ft/lbs energy whereas Bell was dropping them dead with only 1500 ft/lbs makes you wonder a bit no? Or examples everywhere from people who didn't hit the good stuff and regardless of cartridge choice they didn't recover the animal, or in otherwords, the waste of power didn't help one bit and often is the case the shooter didn't shoot the over powered cartridge nearly as well as he should have/could have with a lighter recoiling more efficient cartridge.

I will never argue anything other than shot placement is job #1 no matter what, it trumps almost all other variables in cartridge/bullet choices. Especially if appropriate for game bullet choices are used then even less of a concern is cartridge choice. Be as efficient or wasteful as you want, you can call it comfort if you like, doesn't matter what you call it. Dead is dead, this delayed mortality argument between a .243 to the lungs vs a 300 win mag to the lungs would be awful hard to measure. And if you try a texas heart shot with either you're just as likely to have the same result, win some lose some, good luck measuring that delayed mortality either way.

For comparing one cartridge capability to another however...then these chats are helpful. Because we remove the shooter's ability from the equation. It must be assumed the shot placement is good...then compare away with confidence, s.d./impact velocity is your friend.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Surely you must have experienced both examples. Most hunters have.

As for me, I'll take any caliber .284 and over with a heavy for cal bullet and limit my range to 250 yds. for most of my larger BG hunting.

My preferences happen to be .338-06, .35 Whelen or 9.3x62 for how, what and where I hunt. Those are just my preferences. Fortunately, I have plenty of other calibers available for other uses. It's all about choices.
There is no replacement for displacement in my world and I have yet to see where anything has been wasted. No room for minimalist theories either.

Minimalist theory, I see you use this term rather often, but that's all relative is it not? Using a 30-06 could be considered being a minimalist when speaking to a guy who always uses a 338-378 right? When you're talking about keeping shots inside 250yds there is a plethora of cartridges that will penetrate and kill with loads of energy. Just because you personally deem them to be minimal in performance, you don't have any real world experience with them and you discount the experience others who do actually have the real world experience with them simply because you think you know what will happen. You don't believe YouTube videos, you don't believe the accounts of other members who tell you what they've experienced, and you won't try it for yourself, yet you're adamant that you are correct. Perhaps these minimalist theories could be solved if you open your mind and listen to those with first hand experience.

The 30-30 is the most popular big game cartridge in North America, it would seem most hunters in North America are minimalists.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

Isn't delayed mortality a result of not expiring right way.

I can't offer an example since switching to a big bullet that's going slow. Ha

Haha Don...don't you mean since you switched to...

wait for it...

a high s.d. bullet that's going slow?

could not agree more

[JD848]

Bell and Hemingway both shot the 6.5's with solids ,Bell went with the 7x57 for most of his kills,only a small percentage were killed with the 6.5 by bell.

Bell also comments that the 7x57 was far superior in killing elephants,but there's few elephants around here and if you go on a safari with your Grendall after lions or elephants you may just end up being the bait in the tree.

When I choose a bullet for what ever I am hunting I look for proper expansion,a good b.c and one my barrel likes.I do look at the s,d ,but for me they are so close in numbers I don't think it matters.Shot placement will over rule it all'

Extra energy is up to the individual on what he enjoy's shooting and has nothing to do on what is dead.Pound it home with the cartridge you like and it's lights out for that animal.You can still a make a poor shot with 6.5 or 7mm,I have shot both for 40 years and discipline with lotsa practice makes for a great hunt.

I do most of my hunting near large bodies of water and thick bush so there is no room for error.Rifles that are sighted in with an excellent poi day after day doesn't make errors ,shooters are to blame that are not disciplined where to place that bullet regardless of where you hunt.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by JD848

Bell and Hemingway both shot the 6.5's with solids ,Bell went with the 7x57 for most of his kills,only a small percentage were killed with the 6.5 by bell.

Bell also comments that the 7x57 was far superior in killing elephants,but there's few elephants around here and if you go on a safari with your Grendall after lions or elephants you may just end up being the bait in the tree.

When I choose a bullet for what ever I am hunting I look for proper expansion,a good b.c and one my barrel likes.I do look at the s,d ,but for me they are so close in numbers I don't think it matters.Shot placement will over rule it all'

Extra energy is up to the individual on what he enjoy's shooting and has nothing to do on what is dead.Pound it home with the cartridge you like and it's lights out for that animal.You can still a make a poor shot with 6.5 or 7mm,I have shot both for 40 years and discipline with lotsa practice makes for a great hunt.

I do most of my hunting near large bodies of water and thick bush so there is no room for error.Rifles that are sighted in with an excellent poi day after day doesn't make errors ,shooters are to blame that are not disciplined where to place that bullet regardless of where you hunt.

No Grendel for Africa for me lol, i'll likely never go to Africa anyway. No, it's just a .243 alternative to me, a very attractive one, i understand the limits of both, advantages/disadvantages of both. I did a thread outlining that direct comparison.

And even i wouldn't try the 6.5 mannlicher/7x57 route for dangerous game, i'd be fine with a 375 h&h as it'd likely be borrowed and it seems the gold standard for the continent do all choice. Would i trust a variety of other combo's that could get over .325 s.d.'s with impact velocities north of 2300 fps and appropriate construction? Sure would.

[Kurt505]

It's funny how elephant hunting or shooting elk at 650yds always get brought into the conversation when talking about cartridge selection. Yup, you need a big gun sometimes, but like JD pointed out, most times just a regular gun is needed when you choose a proper projectile and put it where it needs to be.

[JD848]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

No Grendel for Africa for me lol, i'll likely never go to Africa anyway. No, it's just a .243 alternative to me, a very attractive one, i understand the limits of both, advantages/disadvantages of both. I did a thread outlining that direct comparison.

And even i wouldn't try the 6.5 mannlicher/7x57 route for dangerous game, i'd be fine with a 375 h&h as it'd likely be borrowed and it seems the gold standard for the continent do all choice. Would i trust a variety of other combo's that could get over .325 s.d.'s with impact velocities north of 2300 fps and appropriate construction? Sure would.

I just joken around,i know what your trying to explain to others and it's all good.

Cheers
JD

[Stinky Coyote]

i know , still fun to think about, ballistics is an addiction, i've looked at nearly all cartridges with highest for caliber bullets i could find, some interesting stuff could be done with a .338 and those 300 gr woodleigh's at .376 s.d.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Minimalist theory, I see you use this term rather often, but that's all relative is it not? Using a 30-06 could be considered being a minimalist when speaking to a guy who always uses a 338-378 right? When you're talking about keeping shots inside 250yds there is a plethora of cartridges that will penetrate and kill with loads of energy. Just because you personally deem them to be minimal in performance, you don't have any real world experience with them and you discount the experience others who do actually have the real world experience with them simply because you think you know what will happen. You don't believe YouTube videos, you don't believe the accounts of other members who tell you what they've experienced, and you won't try it for yourself, yet you're adamant that you are correct. Perhaps these minimalist theories could be solved if you open your mind and listen to those with first hand experience.

The 30-30 is the most popular big game cartridge in North America, it would seem most hunters in North America are minimalists.

You seem to have it all together, but just for your info, my experience probably trumps yours both in variety and numbers by quite a margin .
I held a Class B guides license since the 60's and was one of the original members of APOS. I'm not short of experience or knowledge when it comes to hunting or ballistics, as those two subjects are my main interest these days and have been for several decades.. If you want to play the experience card, go ahead and stay with your assumptions. Personally, it's not a big deal for me.
What is, is. and always will be.

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Haha Don...don't you mean since you switched to...

wait for it...

a high s.d. bullet that's going slow?

could not agree more

Yes, that's what I thought I was supposed to do.

Dang Namit, guess I'll have to go back to the drawing board. Ha

Highly unlikely there's any help for me I guess, I'll have to keep hunting with my old friend,,, He's all about quantity, not quality. LOL. Semi auto 308 brings them down every time.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

You seem to have it all together, but just for your info, my experience probably trumps yours both in variety and numbers by quite a margin .
I held a Class B guides license since the 60's and was one of the original members of APOS. I'm not short of experience or knowledge when it comes to hunting or ballistics, as those two subjects are my main interest these days and have been for several decades.. If you want to play the experience card, go ahead and stay with your assumptions. Personally, it's not a big deal for me.
What is, is. and always will be.

With your age I have no doubt your experience trumps mine, it's what you take from it that matters. I've been a tradesman since I was 17, I know the amount of experience a guy has vs what is retained and applied correctly isn't always relative. You've said some things that make me question what you've retained from your experience. You've spoken "matter of factly" about things you did not know as a matter of fact so I sometimes question things.

You personal preference is totally up to you, and all that matters is that you're happy with it. To be honest, my personal preference is also a .284 projectile BUT! That doesn't mean I don't understand that a 6.5 with the right bullet used within its designed speeds will efficiently kill anything in North America.

Another member had asked me a question on what I preferred my clients used for a cartridge. When I looked back I can only remember once ever commenting on a clients choice in cartridge and that was a 338-378 Weatherby, I asked him if he realized we were not trying to shoot down enemy aircraft.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Examples?

Next time you have to put your dog down run an arrow through his lungs instead of using a rifle with a fast moving bullet.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

Yes, that's what I thought I was supposed to do.

Dang Namit, guess I'll have to go back to the drawing board. Ha

Highly unlikely there's any help for me I guess, I'll have to keep hunting with my old friend,,, He's all about quantity, not quality. LOL. Semi auto 308 brings them down every time.

Lol, one of the long time hunters i know runs and old bar 308 too and without fail.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

Next time you have to put your dog down run an arrow through his lungs instead of using a rifle with a fast moving bullet.

arrows vs bullets now? i see your point though, brain shot with a .22 vs through the lungs, sure that could be considered delayed mortality i guess, instant vs 30 seconds....either preferable to pancreatic cancer and 6 months of misery(that i would think would qualify as delayed mortality, but no difference between two kill zone shots between two different cartridges)

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

arrows vs bullets now? i see your point though, brain shot with a .22 vs through the lungs, sure that could be considered delayed mortality i guess, instant vs 30 seconds....either preferable to pancreatic cancer and 6 months of misery(that i would think would qualify as delayed mortality, but no difference between two kill zone shots between two different cartridges)

No. Hes showing that sectional density and projectile design to penetrate but lacking foot pounds energy lacks the damaging effect of a high energy impact bullet impact. An arrow is exactly that. It penetrates all the way through and has only a cutting channel. It certainly does kill, but without high speed energy, there is lacking the large damage of foot pounds causing temporary wound cavity. There is a certain point where the velocity is too low to cause expansion and it just cuts. I think the arrow vs bullet arguement is perfect to explain that a high sd needs a high velocity to perform and dump energy into damaging tissue the way a lower sd bullet expands and pounds its energy into the tissue.

A typical compound bow arrow has about 490 grains of weight, a sectional density of about .550 and is hitting at about 250fps hits with about 70 foot pounds of energy.