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07-17-2018, 03:21 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
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One thing about large bullets with lots of weight and speed, they deffinatly open up the wound channel.
https://youtu.be/fX4ODh1g4eM
Big entrance wound allows for better tracking since the critters are normally leaking pretty good.
Hypershock or hydraulic sure turns the lights out on the thick skins, devastating results on medium size game fore sure.
Don't get me wrong, the right gun and cartrage in the right hands can pull off miracles,,, just not in my hands. Ha
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07-17-2018, 04:18 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
That is the same bullet at different terminal velocities so of course the bullets will behave differently. In terms of energy expended that makes sense, in terms of penetration not so much.
Try using two bullets of the same construction - one of 150 gr at a terminal vel of 2000 fps and the other a 250 gr at a term vel of
1600, both meeting the same resistance. Penetration ?
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My example is just as applicable as yours, the point is that less momentum can produce more penetration. And my example uses only one variable, the momentum.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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07-17-2018, 04:22 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Parsons
One thing about large bullets with lots of weight and speed, they deffinatly open up the wound channel.
https://youtu.be/fX4ODh1g4eM
Big entrance wound allows for better tracking since the critters are normally leaking pretty good.
Hypershock or hydraulic sure turns the lights out on the thick skins, devastating results on medium size game fore sure.
Don't get me wrong, the right gun and cartrage in the right hands can pull off miracles,,, just not in my hands. Ha
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Given that the exit wound is often many times larger than the entrance wound, the entrance wound is often far less of a factor than than the exit wound, where tracking is concerned. As for thick skinned game, that would be the African animals, and hydrostatic shock isn't usually a concern on those large, thick skinned animals.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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07-17-2018, 04:32 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
My example is just as applicable as yours, the point is that less momentum can produce more penetration. And my example uses only one variable, the momentum.
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Your example was using one variable only... terminal velocity, using exactly the same bullet . Not the same. Momentum refers to mass. Use the same T Vel and increase the mass, or increase the mass and lower the velocity.
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When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
Last edited by Salavee; 07-17-2018 at 04:38 PM.
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07-17-2018, 04:36 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
3 shots Chuck?
Shoulda used an accubond........
Kidding. But seriously, probably shoulda used an accubond
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The bull went 25 yds. I’m just handy with a bolt gun.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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07-17-2018, 04:43 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
Your example was using one variable only... terminal velocity, using exactly the same bullet . Not the same. Momentum refers to mass. Use the same T Vel and increase the mass and lower the velocity.
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Momentum is a product of mass and velocity. My example uses the same mass, with the only variable being velocity/momentum. You asked me to provide an example of where more momentum can produce less penetration, and I did exactly that. Are you arguing that slowing down an expanding bullet(reducing it's momentum) can't produce more penetration?
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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07-17-2018, 04:44 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
Your example was using one variable only... terminal velocity, using exactly the same bullet . Not the same. Momentum refers to mass. Use the same T Vel and increase the mass and lower the velocity.
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Here's the thing, as shooters we are not limited to one specific rifle, action, barrel, stock, caliber, cartridge or bullet. A smaller bullet with less momentum can result in deeper penatration pretty easily. A 400lb bolder going 50fps will give you great momentum but not much in the way of penetration, a 400gr arrow going 280fps won't have much momentum but will have great penetration.
Had to edit that.
Last edited by Kurt505; 07-17-2018 at 04:56 PM.
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07-17-2018, 05:35 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Momentum is a product of mass and velocity. My example uses the same mass, with the only variable being velocity/momentum. You asked me to provide an example of where more momentum can produce less penetration, and I did exactly that. Now you don't like the example, so you don't want to accept it.
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It's not that I won't accept it but using two identical bullets at different velocities ? Really ? Running those same bullets (TTSX maybe) at the same terminal velocities and different weights might be a better comparison. The effect of Momentum begins when SD and velocity drop off, as they do on impact. The larger the Mass in motion, the greater the momentum and the greater the penetration.
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When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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07-17-2018, 05:57 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
It's not that I won't accept it but using two identical bullets at different velocities ? Really ? Running those same bullets (TTSX maybe) at the same terminal velocities and different weights might be a better comparison. The effect of Momentum begins when SD and velocity drop off, as they do on impact. The larger the Mass in motion, the greater the momentum and the greater the penetration.
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Two identical bullets at different velocities is something that we experience every day, by shooting at different ranges., so it is probably the most common example that we experience.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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07-17-2018, 06:57 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Two identical bullets at different velocities is something that we experience every day, by shooting at different ranges., so it is probably the most common example that we experience.
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It is common, but what about momentum ?
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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07-17-2018, 07:20 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
It is common, but what about momentum ?
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The momentum changes with the velocity, which changes with the shot distance, so the momentum change is common.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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07-17-2018, 08:10 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,595
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I am getting dizzy, lost my velocity and the momentum too....but the little 233 will kill!
And that's a fact jack!
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Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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07-17-2018, 08:16 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
The bull went 25 yds. I’m just handy with a bolt gun.
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I really shouldn't say anything, it sure beats the time I only shot once and assumed the animal was dead!
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07-18-2018, 03:56 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
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I agree Elk, a pass threw deffinatly improves the odds leakage. Ha
Yuppers, well others are enjoying this thread, much like I,,, it give me time to load up some ammo to shoot at the range.
Yes, I should of spent more time cleaning the new rifle, but a few passes of Wipe-Out and the barrel is good to go. It probably won't see a cleaning till this winter.
Lots of pack built into this rifle replacement rig.
Medium size cartrage, with mellow 180gr'ers to do the job up close,,, nothing like up close and personal on the Critters this year.
As much as I like the idea of light bullets and cartrages, it's just to late in my life time to switch things out.
The 2 sets of loading dies in my gun room will last me a life time, its to much to take on another change up.
Keep the tread going as I spend my day scouting critters, driving around lost and reloading more ammo for the season ahead.
It's all about good times no matter what boat we float
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07-18-2018, 07:04 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
I really shouldn't say anything, it sure beats the time I only shot once and assumed the animal was dead!
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The animal is only completely dead when your body has fully processed the meat and you have flushed.....
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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07-18-2018, 07:41 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
He is shooting SOLIDS. SD has some validity with solids.
And bloody well neither. And here is exactly where your SD arguement fall on its face. I’ll take a 260 gr A-Frame over a 260 gr accubond for a body shot on an elephant and yet they have the same sectional density.
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You're going to have an 'ah ha' moment on this one day, pm me when you do and we'll have a good laugh over it...
Kidding aside for a minute, you side stepped my question.
You pick the bullet, a-frame's, 375 h&h, 260 gr and 300 gr, you're about to get stomped and you need to make that brain pan. Which barrel you want to pull the trigger on assuming you're only going to get one crack at it?
I'll extend this question example to anyone else who wants to play and please give the 'why' for your choice.
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07-18-2018, 08:18 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Fort McMurray, AB
Posts: 2,515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat
As I stated in another thread, rules do not always make sense because common sense is not used in the making of said rules!
Cat
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Correct. A 357 Mag handload from a carbine is a great short range deer round. Too bad. Also no 41 mag? Really??
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Be sure of your target and what lies beyond.
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07-18-2018, 10:40 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat
The animal is only completely dead when your body has fully processed the meat and you have flushed.....
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Well in that case I was killing some moose just yesterday morning
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07-20-2018, 06:48 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Well in that case I was killing some moose just yesterday morning
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Congrats on the "complete" kill
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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07-20-2018, 07:29 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flight01
Correct. A 357 Mag handload from a carbine is a great short range deer round. Too bad. Also no 41 mag? Really??
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Some States specifically allow pistol cartridges in carbines .
The 25/20 is a prime example of a short cased cartridge that was illegal for many years in Alberta until the case length restrictions were removed .
It might be "okay" in a rifle but it is still a cartridge that I would not even consider over some cartridges that are still not legal to use .
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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