Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > General Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 01-17-2018, 10:00 PM
ETOWNCANUCK ETOWNCANUCK is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,900
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ETOWNCANUCK View Post
Maybe we should set up a go fund me for the “hunter” for a new scope or Lazik surgery, or a decent pair of binoculars.

If you are unclear what you are shooting at,
Or don’t know what something looks like at 300 yards
Don’t pull the dam trigger.

If you see it in one second to think you know what it is
Take another to know for sure.

Seems as if it was only 30 metres.

Can’t tell the difference that close?

Yup Lazic surgery.

Also seems he can only pay $1000 towards the vet bills.

Guess he needs to make 20 posts on here and start selling his stuff in the buy and sell section.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/hunter...wolf-1.3764533
  #32  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:08 PM
ShortsideK ShortsideK is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 389
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coachman View Post
If the dog was not in care and control of the person walking it, the person walking the dog should also be charged for allowing the dog out where there is wildlife. I have seen wolves out here that look like German Shepherds, and even one I thought was a Saint Bernard. The area was open for hunting wolves and I think even coyotes. I have a hard time with this having trapped and farmed in this area. Did the guy that shot the dog do something wrong, maybe. Was the dog owner breaking the law, If the dog was that far ahead, there was a good chance they where. Who is at fault?
The Hunter.
The Hunter.
The Hunter.
  #33  
Old 01-18-2018, 06:32 AM
Badgerbadger Badgerbadger is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,187
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by parfleche View Post
This sort of stuff happens ever so often , If everything and everyone was perfect It would not ! But I have a question , for the fellows that got broadsided in an accident and said I did not see him! Or what about getting hit by a train ? I did not see it ! Kind of makes you wonder how shooting a dog that has a lot of wolf characteristics is quite possible !
How close was he ? what time of day was it ? so on and so forth .
This was in wolf country , Perhaps a blaze vest is in order on such animals? Would you wear a brown or black parka in a hunting zone in bear season?
so here is the ultimate unbelievable story ? I worked for CNR , maintenance section 1973 Makinak Manitoba, one fellow worker was walking on the tracks wearing full winter gear in a very high wind parka hood on etc., a train came from behind and ran him over ! hard to believe ? It Happened!
so before we go off ranting and raving about this and that and what should have happened , stop and take a breath , Life is sometimes difficult to believe !
My cousin is dead because his father-in-law "thought he was a moose".

Your rationalizations are not useful. Hunters are responsible for firearm safety, as well as being positive of their target and backstop.

Life is dangerous. Pay attention.
__________________
"It'd be nice if...."
  #34  
Old 01-18-2018, 06:59 AM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post
My thoughts as well. I bet most hunters would have shot at that dog if they were looking for wolves and were on crown land plain and simple.
Too bad to see this happen and good on the hunter for stopping and not running from it
True, things happen, now pay the vet bills and move on.


I have multiple conversations with people out enjoying the woods during hunting season about thier dogs, run'em if you won't but oronge vest, collar etc and for the people to wear a traffic vest or something like that, visual indication to make things safer for all...one older couple didn't realize it was big game season and said they can hold of to walking in The woods and go hit the city/town trails until the season was over for thier safety and that they didn't won't to spook game for the hunters...now that is all working together and getting along.
I was out once calling yotes and man oh man had to second, third look a dog...man it looked like a yote....something was not right...can fully understand how things can go bad quickly.
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
  #35  
Old 01-18-2018, 07:09 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

If you can tell the difference between a mule deer and a whitetailed deer, and you can determine if a deer has 10cm of antler or not, you should be able to tell the difference between the dog pictured and a wolf. If you can't tell the difference , you shouldn't be hunting. Before you pull the trigger, you need to be 100% sure of the target, 90% or 95% is not good enough. As to expecting non hunters to keep their dogs out of the woods, that attitude will just turn more people against hunting, and that is the last thing that we want to happen.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
  #36  
Old 01-18-2018, 07:16 AM
pikergolf's Avatar
pikergolf pikergolf is online now
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
If you can tell the difference between a mule deer and a whitetailed deer, and you can determine if a deer has 10cm of antler or not, you should be able to tell the difference between the dog pictured and a wolf. If you can't tell the difference , you shouldn't be hunting. Before you pull the trigger, you need to be 100% sure of the target, 90% or 95% is not good enough. As to expecting non hunters to keep their dogs out of the woods, that attitude will just turn more people against hunting, and that is the last thing that we want to happen.
Very true, telling people to stay out of the woods because of a small percentage of hunters will get peoples back up. The world is changing, lots of people out enjoying the out of doors. It is no longer just hunters out there.
__________________
“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.”

Thomas Sowell
  #37  
Old 01-18-2018, 07:22 AM
tirebob's Avatar
tirebob tirebob is online now
AO Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Airdrie, AB and Part Time BC
Posts: 2,994
Default

I have a big black Newfoundland dog that is 140lbs plus. Come bear season I keep her home. If a hunter saw her crashing through bush, I would think they would often shoot. I am not trying to say a hunter doesn't need to be responsible to identify properly before pulling the trigger, but some common sense from pet owners is definitely needed.
  #38  
Old 01-18-2018, 07:29 AM
curtis_rak's Avatar
curtis_rak curtis_rak is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: West of Edmonton
Posts: 619
Default

I have to agree with Elkhunter11.

I have zero sympathy for the "hunter". That husky doesn't look remotely like a wolf and I'm sure less like a wolf when it had an orange collar on. He ******ed up, plain and simple and the notion that people are so trigger happy in the bush scares me as a hunter.

And to echo the choir, if it was me who shot that dog, it would be living like a king from that day forward... I would feel horrible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  #39  
Old 01-18-2018, 07:41 AM
mattthegorby mattthegorby is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 735
Default

Admittedly, I also just skimmed the article... but the orange flag on the collar that keeps popping up in this thread was mentioned by the owner as something she did not have on the dog because it was not big game season.

Not that that clears the hunter of wrong doing, just to illustrate how we are not in a position to judge this guy without all the facts.

Matt

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
  #40  
Old 01-18-2018, 07:43 AM
bat119's Avatar
bat119 bat119 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: On the border in Lloydminster
Posts: 8,343
Default

Number 3 of the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety

3) Be sure of the target and what is in front of it and beyond it.
Know the identifying features of the game you hunt. Make sure you have an adequate backstop—don’t shoot at a flat, hard surface or water.

It is the person pulling the triggers responsibility to identify the target.

Nuf said pay the lady.
  #41  
Old 01-18-2018, 07:46 AM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,939
Default

As always there is the 20% of AO responders who will side with the hunter.
All I can say is I'm glad I don't hunt with you guys.
  #42  
Old 01-18-2018, 07:47 AM
ukrainianmudking ukrainianmudking is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 19
Default Really

Wow, after reading most of these comments it seems most here are holier than thou. No one here has never made a mistake, no one has lined up on a whitetail to later see it was a mule. No one has ever in their life made a poor choice. I hunt in the exact same area as this incident, if there is a large dog running at me be it coyote, wolf, or husky, why wouldn’t I take my safety into consideration? Why should I be on the hook for anything? Why is it the hunter’s responsibility to notify people that I am hunting?

This hunter was conducting our activity in accordance with the rules set out for all of us. He made a decision, I know that I support. Yes, it sucks that it was someone’s dog, but no he shouldn’t be on the hook for vet bills, or lose his hunting privilege.
These comments from those of you so opposed from what he did, well I guess you are all perfect. So perhaps you can just make this a sport for those as perfect as yourself.
  #43  
Old 01-18-2018, 07:51 AM
ukrainianmudking ukrainianmudking is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 19
Default

Now perhaps we can make this a learning event for both sides. Maybe we should have better advertising for the non-hunting dog owners out there. Perhaps dogs should be on leash, or made to wear orange vests. Perhaps the public should be aware of when hunting season takes place.
The blame game does nothing but turn us against each other, why don’t we all work to solve this together.
  #44  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:01 AM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrainianmudking View Post
Wow, after reading most of these comments it seems most here are holier than thou. No one here has never made a mistake, no one has lined up on a whitetail to later see it was a mule. No one has ever in their life made a poor choice. I hunt in the exact same area as this incident, if there is a large dog running at me be it coyote, wolf, or husky, why wouldn’t I take my safety into consideration? Why should I be on the hook for anything? Why is it the hunter’s responsibility to notify people that I am hunting?

This hunter was conducting our activity in accordance with the rules set out for all of us. He made a decision, I know that I support. Yes, it sucks that it was someone’s dog, but no he shouldn’t be on the hook for vet bills, or lose his hunting privilege.
These comments from those of you so opposed from what he did, well I guess you are all perfect. So perhaps you can just make this a sport for those as perfect as yourself.
As I said...glad I don't hunt with you...and never would.
You are using a deadly weapon (and yes, if you are hunting it is a weapon)...it is completely up to you to ensure you don't make mistakes if at all possible.
Do you take the attitude when you are driving that everyone makes mistakes and if you hit a pedestrian...well too bad?
  #45  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:08 AM
dmac's Avatar
dmac dmac is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 614
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortsideK View Post
The Hunter.
The Hunter.
The Hunter.
Yup, no doubt about that.
  #46  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:09 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrainianmudking View Post
Now perhaps we can make this a learning event for both sides. Maybe we should have better advertising for the non-hunting dog owners out there. Perhaps dogs should be on leash, or made to wear orange vests. Perhaps the public should be aware of when hunting season takes place.
The blame game does nothing but turn us against each other, why don’t we all work to solve this together.
These incidents certainly do turn people against hunting, and with so many people trying to shut down hunting, we can't afford to turn even more people against our sport. As to mandating hikers or dog walkers to have their dogs leashed , or to mandate that they and their dogs wear orange, to accommodate us hunters, that will just result in a battle for who should have priority in the woods, and when that happens, hunters will lose. If we want to continue to enjoy our sport, then we need to make sure that we don't appear to present a hazzard to other users of the wilderness, and incidents like this do just the opposite. One irresponsible person that shoots a dog for a wolf, or a horse for a moose, bring the end of hunting closer. And if we support that irresponsible person, then we all appear to be irresponsible, which is the last thing we want to do.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.

Last edited by elkhunter11; 01-18-2018 at 08:38 AM.
  #47  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:13 AM
dmac's Avatar
dmac dmac is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 614
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrainianmudking View Post
Wow, after reading most of these comments it seems most here are holier than thou. No one here has never made a mistake, no one has lined up on a whitetail to later see it was a mule. No one has ever in their life made a poor choice. I hunt in the exact same area as this incident, if there is a large dog running at me be it coyote, wolf, or husky, why wouldn’t I take my safety into consideration? Why should I be on the hook for anything? Why is it the hunter’s responsibility to notify people that I am hunting?

This hunter was conducting our activity in accordance with the rules set out for all of us. He made a decision, I know that I support. Yes, it sucks that it was someone’s dog, but no he shouldn’t be on the hook for vet bills, or lose his hunting privilege.
These comments from those of you so opposed from what he did, well I guess you are all perfect. So perhaps you can just make this a sport for those as perfect as yourself.
Ha, seriously? Not perfect by any means, but your comments are misguided at best.
  #48  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:19 AM
sage 13 sage 13 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post
My thoughts as well. I bet most hunters would have shot at that dog if they were looking for wolves and were on crown land plain and simple.
Too bad to see this happen and good on the hunter for stopping and not running from it
Well guess Im not most hunters I would not have shot.
How many short sheep did you shoot before you got a legal one or do you identify what your shooting at first.
  #49  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:48 AM
qwert qwert is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,443
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
These incidents certainly do turn people against hunting, and with so many people trying to shut down hunting, we can't afford to turn even more people against our sport. As to mandating hikers or dog walkers to have their dogs leashed , or to mandate that they and their dogs wear orange, to accommodate us hunters, that will just result in a battle for who should have priority in the woods, and when that happens, hunters will lose. If we want to continue to enjoy our sport, then we need to make sure that we don't appear to present a hazzard to other users of the wilderness, and incidents like this do just the opposite. One irresponsible person that shoots a dog for a wolf, or a horse for a moose, bring the end of hunting closer. And if we support that irresponsible person, then we all appear to be irresponsible, which is the last think we want to do.
IMHO,
In this and ALL similar situations, there is only ONE PERSON who bears 100% of the moral, legal (and financial) responsibility.

While it MAY be a good and sensible practice, there is NO requirement or obligation for any pet owner (or farmer) to leash or flag their property (animals or children) to protect from blind, ignorant or irresponsible hunters or shooters.

The person who pulls the trigger bears 100% of the moral, financial and legal responsibility and consequence for ALL results.

Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Good Luck, YMMV.
  #50  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:52 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by qwert View Post
IMHO,
In this and ALL similar situations, there is only ONE PERSON who bears 100% of the moral, legal (and financial) responsibility.

While it MAY be a good and sensible practice, there is NO requirement or obligation for any pet owner (or farmer) to leash or flag their property (animals or children) to protect from blind, ignorant or irresponsible hunters or shooters.

The person who pulls the trigger bears 100% of the moral, financial and legal responsibility and consequence for ALL results.

Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Good Luck, YMMV.
Exactly, when you pull the trigger, and you are intending to end a life, then you are the one responsible for the result of your actions.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
  #51  
Old 01-18-2018, 09:13 AM
heretohunt's Avatar
heretohunt heretohunt is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,230
Default

I am shocked by how many hunters here are so judgemental from an article they read (skimmed)in the news. I would be willing to bet that most of you can’t tell the difference between a coyote and a wolf when it’s running through the snow in the bush let alone this dog.
It is my opinion that most people like to shoot the black wolf in the pack because even though they see a pack, they can sure look like dogs when they are playing.
I certainly don’t claim to know what happened by the account of the woman with the dog told to the person that wrote the article in the newspaper. We do know that writers for “news”can tend to sensationalize a topic and insert their version. It seems unfortunate. For “hunters” to throw this hunter under the bus without knowing the facts is exactly what the anti’s do. Fish and wildlife have investigated and laid no charges.
We have a bunch of long-term members on this forum that have many similarities to anti-hunters.
  #52  
Old 01-18-2018, 09:18 AM
qwert qwert is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,443
Default

With respect,

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Exactly, when you pull the trigger, and you are intending to end a life (or just shooting at any other target), then you are the one responsible for any or all results of your actions.
  #53  
Old 01-18-2018, 09:22 AM
pikergolf's Avatar
pikergolf pikergolf is online now
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heretohunt View Post
I am shocked by how many hunters here are so judgemental from an article they read (skimmed)in the news. I would be willing to bet that most of you can’t tell the difference between a coyote and a wolf when it’s running through the snow in the bush let alone this dog.
It is my opinion that most people like to shoot the black wolf in the pack because even though they see a pack, they can sure look like dogs when they are playing.
I certainly don’t claim to know what happened by the account of the woman with the dog told to the person that wrote the article in the newspaper. We do know that writers for “news”can tend to sensationalize a topic and insert their version. It seems unfortunate. For “hunters” to throw this hunter under the bus without knowing the facts is exactly what the anti’s do. Fish and wildlife have investigated and laid no charges.
We have a bunch of long-term members on this forum that have many similarities to anti-hunters.
And that right there is why you don't take the shot. Easy Peasy.
__________________
“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.”

Thomas Sowell
  #54  
Old 01-18-2018, 09:36 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heretohunt View Post
I am shocked by how many hunters here are so judgemental from an article they read (skimmed)in the news. I would be willing to bet that most of you can’t tell the difference between a coyote and a wolf when it’s running through the snow in the bush let alone this dog.
It is my opinion that most people like to shoot the black wolf in the pack because even though they see a pack, they can sure look like dogs when they are playing.
I certainly don’t claim to know what happened by the account of the woman with the dog told to the person that wrote the article in the newspaper. We do know that writers for “news”can tend to sensationalize a topic and insert their version. It seems unfortunate. For “hunters” to throw this hunter under the bus without knowing the facts is exactly what the anti’s do. Fish and wildlife have investigated and laid no charges.
We have a bunch of long-term members on this forum that have many similarities to anti-hunters.
If we support the shooter's actions, then we are supporting being irresponsible as a hunter, which is not acceptable to me, and it will only turn more people against hunting. Defending the shooter, would make all hunters appear irresponsible, which is the last thing we want to do. We are not throwing the shooter under the bus, he threw himself under the bus when he fired at an improperly identified target. By wanting him held accountable, we are in fact demonstrating that we as hunters will not tolerate irresponsible behavior from our own ranks. What do you think when one politician defends another one that has done something wrong? How about police officers defending an officer that has done something wrong? How about APOS refusing to deal with a convicted outfitter? When that happens, it makes the entire group appear to be corrupt or irresponsible, and we don't want that image to represent all hunters as a group. So no, I won't defend the shooters actions, he shot a dog, so he should at least pay the vet bills that resulted from his actions.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
  #55  
Old 01-18-2018, 09:42 AM
Sooner Sooner is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 9,650
Default

The guy who shot is 100% at fault and I along with the others here think this could have been avoided easily enough if he just took a better look. I also feel he should man up and pay all costs.

The dog owner did nothing wrong but maybe now, some good will come out of this news story and people who walk with their dogs off leash anywhere other that the city, may think about some kind of blaze vest for their mutts. I know I would.

Back in the day when we hunted Moose by a forestry tower, the girl in the cabin always had DOG written in florescent colors on the side of her big black companion every hunting season. No question you would see that in a scope lol.
  #56  
Old 01-18-2018, 09:52 AM
heretohunt's Avatar
heretohunt heretohunt is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
If we support the shooter's actions, then we are supporting being irresponsible as a hunter, which is not acceptable to me, and it will only turn more people against hunting. Defending the shooter, would make all hunters appear irresponsible, which is the last thing we want to do. We are not throwing the shooter under the bus, he threw himself under the bus when he fired at an improperly identified target. By wanting him held accountable, we are in fact demonstrating that we as hunters will not tolerate irresponsible behavior from our own ranks. What do you think when one politician defends another one that has done something wrong? How about police officers defending an officer that has done something wrong? How about APOS refusing to deal with a convicted outfitter? When that happens, it makes the entire group appear to be corrupt or irresponsible, and we don't want that image to represent all hunters as a group. So no, I won't defend the shooters actions, he shot a dog, so he should at least pay the vet bills that resulted from his actions.
I am not for a second suggesting you support this hunters actions. I am only suggesting that we know the facts before we condemn him.. Lots of people including SCI and the “crying talk show host” threw the dentist under the bus for killing Cecil the lion. It turned out they were wrong and I have lost a lot of respect for SCI since then.
If you have ever been wrongly accused of Something you will understand the meaning of due process.
You can bet that this Hunter feels horrible and regrets ever shooting at something he wasn’t 100% certain of. He is definitely not the first person to ever do something like this.
  #57  
Old 01-18-2018, 11:51 AM
ETOWNCANUCK ETOWNCANUCK is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,900
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtodrick View Post
As always there is the 20% of AO responders who will side with the hunter.
All I can say is I'm glad I don't hunt with you guys.

But without them, we wouldn't hear about black dodge dually's or pool noodles.
  #58  
Old 01-18-2018, 11:58 AM
ETOWNCANUCK ETOWNCANUCK is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,900
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heretohunt View Post
I am shocked by how many hunters here are so judgemental from an article they read (skimmed)in the news. I would be willing to bet that most of you can’t tell the difference between a coyote and a wolf when it’s running through the snow in the bush let alone this dog.
It is my opinion that most people like to shoot the black wolf in the pack because even though they see a pack, they can sure look like dogs when they are playing.
I certainly don’t claim to know what happened by the account of the woman with the dog told to the person that wrote the article in the newspaper. We do know that writers for “news”can tend to sensationalize a topic and insert their version. It seems unfortunate. For “hunters” to throw this hunter under the bus without knowing the facts is exactly what the anti’s do. Fish and wildlife have investigated and laid no charges.
We have a bunch of long-term members on this forum that have many similarities to anti-hunters.

30 metres is plenty to know what you are shooting at.
Daylight is plenty to know what you are shooting at.

just because cops don't lay a charge doesn't mean the is not guilty.
cops have been known to charge the innocent as well.
  #59  
Old 01-18-2018, 12:14 PM
heretohunt's Avatar
heretohunt heretohunt is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ETOWNCANUCK View Post
30 metres is plenty to know what you are shooting at.
Daylight is plenty to know what you are shooting at.

just because cops don't lay a charge doesn't mean the is not guilty.
cops have been known to charge the innocent as well.
I agree on all points but I can’t be sure that anything written in the article is fact enough to condem him. I’m guessing the investigating fish and wildlife officer has a clearer picture and choose not to press charges...🤔
  #60  
Old 01-18-2018, 12:22 PM
whiteout whiteout is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by troutbug View Post
Thats not to far from where I live. Its a very common area for people to walk and hike with there dogs. They should have published his name
So if you can’t try him in court (didn’t break the law), we should name him and open him up to public shaming and threats?
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.