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  #31  
Old 04-13-2017, 09:24 PM
smitty9 smitty9 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by two_ker View Post
Yup, all good points. Hopefully next they make it illegal for fly chuckers to wander up and down these creeks, causing sediment to be disturbed, spawning beds to be walked on. All in an effort to get to the next big pool and catch the endangered cutthroat. (Whats the survival rate on C&R? Yes better than catch and keep)
Maybe we should have a mandatory felt boot and wader inspection area so as to not introduce invasive species, at a minimal cost to enthusiasts.

Lets get the ban hammer swinging!

Ah yes, the false equivalencies argument, as usual. Next up...an apples to zebras comparison. And, after that, why mowing your lawn is 700 times worse than clearcutting the Amazon rainforest!

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Originally Posted by Joe Black View Post
So why is mr. Finch fixated on only one source? True science explores all possibilities does it not? I'm assuming mr finch knows how to use the google as well(or better) than you do, and could have found these studies before he wrote his article to ensure all factors were discussed. Or is ther another reason he wrote it,,,,,,,


My point being many are quick to applaud a closure for one user group if they do not participate in that activity, or if the closure is beneficial to themselves. Quite selfish really.
This, ^ , for the win. The winner of most ironic post.

Nothing more selfish than quadders ripping up terrain, causing disturbance, displacing other recreational users and wildlife for...wait for it...their own pleasure. Where's the emoticon for clapping.
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  #32  
Old 04-13-2017, 09:27 PM
smitty9 smitty9 is offline
 
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..delete...duplicate
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  #33  
Old 04-13-2017, 09:52 PM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
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Winner eh? Sweet.

Doesn't take much to get your waders in a bunch. Keep believing you past time is the only true form of sport by which all others should be compared.

We're not worthy, we're not worthy,,,,,
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  #34  
Old 04-14-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Black View Post
Winner eh? Sweet.

Doesn't take much to get your waders in a bunch. Keep believing you past time is the only true form of sport by which all others should be compared.

We're not worthy, we're not worthy...
Nope, we're just giving you the facts. Pretty sure many have acknowledged both of the pastimes have impacts. You seem to be pretty knotted up, dude it's chill. We're just discussing this, don't worry about it.
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  #35  
Old 04-19-2017, 08:44 PM
two_ker two_ker is offline
 
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There are tons of creeks that are closed permanently to angling for this exact reason. And people adapt. Just like they OHV riders will for the castle region. I know your comment was dripping with sarcasm and malace, but that's a good point.
No malice in my post, maybe some sarcasm. Heck I love fly fishing, my twelve year old daughter asked for a fly rod on her birthday! There are some here that think their moral high ground on certain activities are superior to others. I hope we can find a balance between all user groups.
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  #36  
Old 04-20-2017, 07:04 AM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by two_ker View Post
No malice in my post, maybe some sarcasm. Heck I love fly fishing, my twelve year old daughter asked for a fly rod on her birthday! There are some here that think their moral high ground on certain activities are superior to others. I hope we can find a balance between all user groups.
These are words you are coming up with such as "superior" and "moral". I don't see that from anyone here.

What I'm seeing is like minded people who do their best to protect our natural resources - e.g. the people on here. When along comes someone on an ATV and runs through the head waters of a stream -mud bogging there, etc. If you don't see a difference in where priorities lay between these two user groups, your head is in the wrong space. This has nothing to do with superior feeling and thinking, just a want to protect what we have. You have to start somewhere. If you can't except the science on the destruction that is caused by ATV use then you are just ignoring the facts.
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  #37  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:42 AM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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Funny how you guys refuse to look at your impact on the fisheries.

Catching fish, whether releasing or keeping has THE MOST detrimental impact on fisheries, period. You think fish are not real stressed out when they are handled by people? A lot of people don't know how to properly handle fish to release them, but now you're going to tell me I suppose that most fly fishermen are experts at it. Yah right.

You refuse to acknowledge how walking in a river over the spawn beds has little effect on the fishery, but a 200 pound man has more pressure per square foot than a quad tire does. Just have someone stand on your foot, then run over it with a quad tire and tell me which has more pressure. Oh right, I didn't commission some biased scientific study on this so it must hold no weight.

Just because some people act bad on quads, you use that to want to ban all, but your fishermen constantly ignore YOUR impact. Why not ban all fishermen because many can't properly release fish? SAME LINE OF THINKING!!

That is called hypocrisy, and you guys stink of it.
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  #38  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:48 AM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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Here's something for you to chew on.

http://www.snowandmud.com/land-use-i...ml#post2392715
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  #39  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:35 AM
matt1984 matt1984 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fargineyesore View Post
Here's something for you to chew on.

http://www.snowandmud.com/land-use-i...ml#post2392715
That data is below the oldman reservoir which would act to settle sediment from upstream disturbances. Not saying that I am in support of a full ban on camping or OHV use, I just think that those charts don't prove your point.
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  #40  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:20 AM
Husty Husty is offline
 
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Originally Posted by matt1984 View Post
That data is below the oldman reservoir which would act to settle sediment from upstream disturbances. Not saying that I am in support of a full ban on camping or OHV use, I just think that those charts don't prove your point.
And another factor for sediment from upstream disturbances would be deforestation from logging, pine beetle, and forest fires. You could really skew data in the Carbondale Creek area due to the forest fires and the amount of deforestation, but why not blame OHV use they area an easier target. Less tree cover means less absorption of precipitation and more run off into rivers. More at play than just OHV vehicles.
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  #41  
Old 04-20-2017, 11:30 AM
Dr.Shortington Dr.Shortington is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fargineyesore View Post
Funny how you guys refuse to look at your impact on the fisheries.

Catching fish, whether releasing or keeping has THE MOST detrimental impact on fisheries, period. You think fish are not real stressed out when they are handled by people? A lot of people don't know how to properly handle fish to release them, but now you're going to tell me I suppose that most fly fishermen are experts at it. Yah right.

You refuse to acknowledge how walking in a river over the spawn beds has little effect on the fishery, but a 200 pound man has more pressure per square foot than a quad tire does. Just have someone stand on your foot, then run over it with a quad tire and tell me which has more pressure. Oh right, I didn't commission some biased scientific study on this so it must hold no weight.

Just because some people act bad on quads, you use that to want to ban all, but your fishermen constantly ignore YOUR impact. Why not ban all fishermen because many can't properly release fish? SAME LINE OF THINKING!!

That is called hypocrisy, and you guys stink of it.
I am not sure that I see any of the fisherman in here denying they have some impact.
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  #42  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:16 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Dr.Shortington View Post
I am not sure that I see any of the fisherman in here denying they have some impact.
x100
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  #43  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:28 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fargineyesore View Post
Just because some people act bad on quads, you use that to want to ban all
This is laughable.

Castle is the start. I suspect it will end up at a province-wide ban for ATVers, with the exception of designated areas. Well deserved in my opinion. Some is too small a word - go for many or majority acting bad and you have it right.

There is more than a anglers perspective of why quads are gone from the area I live, why they are looking to bad then in Wizard Lake, Castle Mountain...you name it. A lot of this has nothing to do with fishing and just regular people tired of living with out of control ATV use in their backyards and the places they like to visit.
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  #44  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:42 PM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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Originally Posted by SNAPFisher View Post
This is laughable.

Castle is the start. I suspect it will end up at a province-wide ban for ATVers, with the exception of designated areas. Well deserved in my opinion. Some is too small a word - go for many or majority acting bad and you have it right.

There is more than a anglers perspective of why quads are gone from the area I live, why they are looking to bad then in Wizard Lake, Castle Mountain...you name it. A lot of this has nothing to do with fishing and just regular people tired of living with out of control ATV use in their backyards and the places they like to visit.
Majority my ass, that is just an opinion that is BS. Furthermore, let's just take your statement and put some truth into it "people that don't quad denying others their pursuits because of their own selfish interests".

Yah the majority of quadders quad in people's back yards.

Do you even listen to yourself?
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  #45  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:54 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fargineyesore View Post
Majority my ass, that is just an opinion that is BS. Furthermore, let's just take your statement and put some truth into it "people that don't quad denying others their pursuits because of their own selfish interests".

Yah the majority of quadders quad in people's back yards.

Do you even listen to yourself?
They do in my backyard and every neighbor around. They do in the residents around Wizard lake. Looks like your facts are out of alignment. Mine are based on who I talk to, catch and what I see. Actual experience. Imagine that huh.

If you can't resort to a civil discussion, leave.
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  #46  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:36 PM
Dr.Shortington Dr.Shortington is offline
 
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Did anyone actually read the article Snap posted??? I am curious to hear from the OHV users if it doesn't seem like a reasonable solution?
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  #47  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:50 PM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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Originally Posted by SNAPFisher View Post
They do in my backyard and every neighbor around. They do in the residents around Wizard lake. Looks like your facts are out of alignment. Mine are based on who I talk to, catch and what I see. Actual experience. Imagine that huh.

If you can't resort to a civil discussion, leave.
If you don't want to be called on your outlandish statements, don't make them.
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  #48  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:07 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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If you don't want to be called on your outlandish statements, don't make them.
Nothing outlandish about the truth. Sorry you feel that way. I've made the same statements before and will continue to make them. I would love to see the average ATV user prove me wrong but that hasn't happened yet. Walk a mile in my shoes, or anyone for that matter, and a ban seem like the best of ideas.
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  #49  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:13 PM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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Can understand if you've had bad experiences with ATV owners, but to say the majority are that way just because that's what you've seen is what I have the issue with.

You haven't seen the majority of ATV owners, so you can't make a statement that the majority are abusers and expect it to be accepted as truth.

Have a nice day.
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  #50  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:19 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fargineyesore View Post
Can understand if you've had bad experiences with ATV owners, but to say the majority are that way just because that's what you've seen is what I have the issue with.

You haven't seen the majority of ATV owners, so you can't make a statement that the majority are abusers and expect it to be accepted as truth.

Have a nice day.
I can and will based on my experiences. There are 11 land owners in my area that are now all like minded. Some of them are now x-ATVers. Does that tell you something? It is not just me. Go out and talk to the land owners around Wizard lake too. Go and talk to some of the land owners around Pigeon Lake. These are places that are also talking about a ban. So why is a ban being talked about for Castle area now too? You seeing a pattern. Maybe there are a few more "bad" users than you care to think about or even acknowledge. I'll bet I'm only scratching the surface here. Is it sinking in for you yet?

Have a nice day.
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  #51  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:38 PM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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Funny, I thought the Castle plan was because ATVs were so bad for the fish, but now you are saying that they should be banned because of people supposedly riding around Pigeon and Wizard Lake? That has nothing to do with supposed damage to creeks which is what you are saying is happening in the Castle.

Just ferreting out your true reasons is all. No need to get personal.
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  #52  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:52 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fargineyesore View Post
Funny, I thought the Castle plan was because ATVs were so bad for the fish, but now you are saying that they should be banned because of people supposedly riding around Pigeon and Wizard Lake? That has nothing to do with supposed damage to creeks which is what you are saying is happening in the Castle.

Just ferreting out your true reasons is all. No need to get personal.
Not at all. As I mentioned earlier, I'm very biased based on my experiences but you can't seem to read the thread. I'm using Wizard and Pigeon as two other examples of areas where bans are wanted by residents to prove the point that this is not isolated. And, how many more areas could we drum up that want the same...I bet that would be an easy endeavor. And, as I said before, this is not limited to fishing. That is something that you seem to be hung up on.

As for personal, quotes from you:

Quote:
That is called hypocrisy, and you guys stink of it.
Quote:
Majority my ass, that is just an opinion that is BS.
Quote:
Do you even listen to yourself?
Is there anything else I can help correct you with?
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  #53  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:05 PM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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If I'm not mistaken, the areas around Pigeon and Wizard Lake is mostly private land is it not? That would be an issue of trespassing. Deal with trespassers same as any other trespasser should be.

But don't try to use that as a reason to ban ATVs, or you can use the same argument that hunting should be banned because of hunters that trespass, which we know is rampant in hunting season.

The reasons for the proposed bans do not pass the smell test.
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  #54  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:10 PM
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Okotokian Okotokian is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Joe Black View Post

My point being many are quick to applaud a closure for one user group if they do not participate in that activity, or if the closure is beneficial to themselves. Quite selfish really.
Or demand that something be allowed, to the detriment of all others, including the threatened wildlife, just because they love the roar of the engine. Quite selfish really. (OK, cheap shot about the roar of the engine. I'll take responsibility for that. Sorry LOL).

This is in the fly fishing part of the forum. Can I assume you are a fly fisherman? Not saying your comments are inappropriate or misplaced at all. It would just be useful to know where you are coming from. That's all.

For me, cutthroat trump quads. Fish are part of my self-interest. I'm not going to be shy or apologetic about that.
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In this case Oki has cut to to the exact heart of the matter!
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  #55  
Old 04-20-2017, 03:53 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fargineyesore View Post
If I'm not mistaken, the areas around Pigeon and Wizard Lake is mostly private land is it not? That would be an issue of trespassing. Deal with trespassers same as any other trespasser should be.

But don't try to use that as a reason to ban ATVs, or you can use the same argument that hunting should be banned because of hunters that trespass, which we know is rampant in hunting season.

The reasons for the proposed bans do not pass the smell test.
Most sensible response I've seen from you yet.

The reasons for the proposed bans, outrage and people wanting and seeking it are for very similar reasons. Castle area, same thing. Other areas will follow. It is about time the general population, not just anglers, did something about this problem. Obviously the "good" ATVers or "responsible" ones you refer to have had no success or luck in trying to change the "bad" ones you refer to. So it only makes sense to me that others step and make this happen. About "fargin" time too.

As for Wizard and Pigeon, yep, private. The idiotic argument from ATVers is the creek land that runs through them is crown land and public. What is idiotic is that they must cross private land to do so. So what do they do? They find the quietest area and cut a swath, including fences and make their own path over private land. Then, others follow it. And, hordes and hordes of them. Thousands in fact. What happens when they are confronted on private property? "I didn't know..., I thought it was okay and public...". Or my fav "I've seen others do it and we aren't wrecking anything...". I've had many conversations with ATVers - thousands of conversations - within sight and even next to or under no trespassing signs. What about the fences they the ride by and over that someone else has busted through. Would that not be a clue?

So when I say many or majority, this is where I'm coming from. My experiences and not to mention each of my neighbors and other area I've visited to see what is happening with residents there.

Do you get it?
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  #56  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:00 PM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
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Originally Posted by SNAPFisher View Post
Nothing outlandish about the truth. Sorry you feel that way. I've made the same statements before and will continue to make them. I would love to see the average ATV user prove me wrong but that hasn't happened yet. Walk a mile in my shoes, or anyone for that matter, and a ban seem like the best of ideas.

"and a ban seem like the best of ideas"

those words may haunt you in the future, like, one day shannon announces:

"due to stress caused by fishing on the endangered fish species in the castle area, a ban of all fishing seems like the best idea"
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  #57  
Old 04-20-2017, 04:11 PM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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"and a ban seem like the best of ideas"

those words may haunt you in the future, like, one day shannon announces:

"due to stress caused by fishing on the endangered fish species in the castle area, a ban of all fishing seems like the best idea"
Like I said Joe, you have to start somewhere. Why not start with one of the worst user groups around.

That fact that you also make a jump a fishing ban is just plain silly and deflects the facts and science that has been presented. It looks like desperation to me. It seems like the ATV community is also getting worried and desperate. Good!

But let's stretch this to fishing too since you won't be satisfied until I do. If that were to actually happen as well, fine by me. To me it is more about protecting the most precious areas. So what's next, no walking? hahaha
When I say silly, I mean silly.

That last said, do you see a problem with a park like Jasper? How are the banks and streams destroyed by anglers there? Do you have any science to back up on an area like this? Guess what an area like Jasper has - or doesn't - no ATV use...................
Easy guys, really easy here.
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  #58  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:01 PM
smitty9 smitty9 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fargineyesore View Post
If you don't want to be called on your outlandish statements, don't make them.
^This. Post of the month. Made me laugh out loud, so I won't even use the acronym.

Good thing we're attempting (I use the word loosely) to talk about scientific studies fargin, cause if we were talking about basing OHV policies as relates to impact and damage using common sense and what I can see with my own 2 eyes you wouldn't stand a chance.

Carry on!
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  #59  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:19 PM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
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Yup. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of fishers who use the area now would be "fine" with a complete fishing closure as well.
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  #60  
Old 04-20-2017, 07:13 PM
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In the fly fishing forum there is a "Castle Management" thread? How was whirling disease introduced to AB? I think OHV's are innocent
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