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  #1  
Old 04-09-2017, 10:41 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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Default Trapper Legal Fund

Guys, just a reminder to send in your $$ contribution into the ATA legal defence fund. The RFMA's in this province have an estimated value of $60,000,000 in cabins/bridges/trails etc. Please be sure to do your part for insurance to protect your valuable assets from GOA.
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  #2  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:46 AM
sourdough doug sourdough doug is offline
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?????...Sorry but I haven't heard about this latest "situation"
But there are "situations" about fingers being in the pie...???.
More info required before I contribute to a "slush fund"..FWIW
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Old 04-09-2017, 12:03 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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Is that where this comes from, "Will be setting up large cash reserve fund to protect any trappers with major problem with latest changes."? I figured that money would come from the profits generated from Trapping courses.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:15 PM
wolfcrazy wolfcrazy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HunterDave View Post
Is that where this comes from, "Will be setting up large cash reserve fund to protect any trappers with major problem with latest changes."? I figured that money would come from the profits generated from Trapping courses.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:36 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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Instead of posting stupid emoticons, why don't you man up and say what you have to say, if anything.......or is that the extent of your intelligence?

EDIT.......NOW he decides to do his homework and read the ATA President's meeting thread, AFTER posting his emoticons!

Last edited by HunterDave; 04-09-2017 at 09:52 PM.
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  #6  
Old 04-09-2017, 10:45 PM
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Wolftrapper Wolftrapper is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf View Post
Guys, just a reminder to send in your $$ contribution into the ATA legal defence fund. The RFMA's in this province have an estimated value of $60,000,000 in cabins/bridges/trails etc. Please be sure to do your part for insurance to protect your valuable assets from GOA.
Thanks for the reminder. I will be sending mine.
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  #7  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:35 PM
wolfcrazy wolfcrazy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HunterDave View Post
Instead of posting stupid emoticons, why don't you man up and say what you have to say, if anything.......or is that the extent of your intelligence?

EDIT.......NOW he decides to do his homework and read the ATA President's meeting thread, AFTER posting his emoticons!
Yep, that's about the extent lol. I'm just sick of you flapping you're mouth about the mandatory course. Their are a lot of people that enjoy taking the course even for the 2nd or 3rd time through the years. They say they always take something away that they can use. I've had trappers that challenged the exam in my shop teaching them to skin etc years into their trapping career and realizing that they wasted so much time not doing things right by not learning the basics of humane trapping and proper pelt handling. I might not be a know it all like you but I do know it's in our best interest as trappers to prove to the government and our critics that new trappers are being trained.

As for the trappers legal fund I'd like to see you put your money where your mouth is and man up for yourself and support trapping in Alberta. Smart ***** comments like" I figured that money would come from the profits generated from Trapping courses" isn't going to help fellow trappers or yourself if 💩 hits the fan. I don't have my money in but I will by the end of this month. How about you?

After I talked you once I figured using emoticons was the easiest way of communicating with you since they are simple.
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  #8  
Old 04-10-2017, 02:14 AM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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Nope, my question was a serious one and not a statement about whether or not the Basic Trapping course was good or bad. However, since you brought it up......

$399 for a mandatory Basic Trapping Course!!!! Are you kidding me? Do you not think that the course is generating huge amounts of revenue while shutting people out who can't afford to take it? Is our future a bunch of yuppies trapping $1k worth of fur every year playing dress up and tossing skillets at picnics?

If you want to do some good for the future of trapping, lobby to make the Basic Trapping course affordable and get Trappers that NEED the income from trapping on traplines, not yuppies who don't need the income and are just looking for a weekend activity! Isn't that what we are fighting for to make sure that traplines are properly utilized? And we charge $399 for a trapping course.....absolutely brilliant!

We should be offering the course for the lowest cost possible, even at a loss if need be. The number one priority should be getting as many Trappers qualified and out trapping. There's strength in numbers but what are we doing........making it profitable by charging $399!

Maybe you should have a look at what other provinces are doing and the costs associated with it, THEN tell me how well AB is doing:

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...light=Trapping

As far as what you think people know after attending the Basic Trapping course.....Why is it that I have so many guys coming through my shack fresh off the course wanting to learn how to put up fur? You're only kidding yourself, or out of touch, if you think that they know how to do it after attending the 3 day $399 course for flips sakes! I've been fortunate to have had some very experienced Trappers mentor me and I never hesitate to help any Trapper that wants to learn......for FREE.....that's one thing that I do for trapping.

WRT this latest money generating endeavour, this is the first that I've heard about it but I have been told that a newsletter is coming out with the "highlights" of the President's meeting soon. Maybe it will be mentioned in there. Right now I don't understand how pooling Trapper's money to compensate Trapline lease holders for losses upon the sale of their Trapline is going to help anything. What is being proposed, that resident Trappers donate their fur money?

Last edited by catnthehat; 04-13-2017 at 06:31 AM.
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  #9  
Old 04-10-2017, 07:40 AM
wolfcrazy wolfcrazy is offline
 
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Anyways.... sorry for hijacking the thread. My money will be in the fund. Trapping in general is at risk and it doesn't matter if you're an RFMA holder or a resident trapper the goal is to keep trapping alive and legal so the we all have an opportunity to do it.

Dave we can take our disagreements to PMs.
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  #10  
Old 04-10-2017, 09:47 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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I only attended the meeting in Westlock. I am sure the ATA executive will have more detail in newsletter. However my understanding is the money will be put into a special legal fund separate from day to day operation of ATA. It is to only be used to cover legal costs to protect a trapper from heavy hand of a out of control bureaucrat. PS Dave the last group of young trappers ended up only paying around $100 for their trapper training course.

Last edited by Big Grey Wolf; 04-10-2017 at 09:53 AM.
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  #11  
Old 04-10-2017, 01:44 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf View Post
I only attended the meeting in Westlock. I am sure the ATA executive will have more detail in newsletter. However my understanding is the money will be put into a special legal fund separate from day to day operation of ATA. It is to only be used to cover legal costs to protect a trapper from heavy hand of a out of control bureaucrat. PS Dave the last group of young trappers ended up only paying around $100 for their trapper training course.
That is great to hear! If I had known about it I could have passed it on to a few people that want to trap but the cost is too much for them. Just last week I had a bear hunter buying beaver carcasses from me who would like to trap his own beaver but $399 is to much for him to pay to do it. I believe that his exact words were, ".......,,.! Who knows, maybe he'd get the trapping bug after catching a few beavers.

I am aware that at least one Local will subsidize the cost of the course for members kids. The Local still has to pony up the $399 to give to the ATA though. I'm wondering if that is the case here. Last year the ATA put 388 people through the course. Putting through a couple of dozen kids at $100 out of 388 is hardly something to get excited about for me.

I don't know the specifics about this war chest. Maybe there's more to it but to me, it sounds like a ponzi scheme where people pool their money for the benefit of one or two people. How do you convince non RFMA Trappers to donate to the war chest, by telling them that if they don't, trapping in Alberta will cease to exist?

It seems to me that there are a lot of Trappers who are only concerned with issues that effect them personally and could care less if other people get screwed over. I wish RFMA holders luck with this but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you find the same type of apathy from non RFMA Trappers towards this endevour. I wish you luck with it.

Last edited by catnthehat; 04-13-2017 at 06:33 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2017, 04:59 PM
sourdough doug sourdough doug is offline
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Originally Posted by wolfcrazy View Post
Anyways....

Dave we can take our disagreements to PMs.
Sorry but I still feel, that if there is room for discussion, it should be aired for the benefit of all. Too many trappers are left out in the cold regarding too many issues. The reason for that is because most trappers don't like the politics that always rears it's ugly head...and most have seen way to much of that for far too many years. With opinions aired on this forum, at least there is some info to base a decision on...whether yes or no...NO MORE GAG....(Gospel according to G..........)
PS...there are numerous States in the USA that charge $000 for their trapping courses. I haven't, as yet, followed up on this to see how the costs are covered.
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  #13  
Old 04-10-2017, 06:54 PM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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I do not want to derail my own post but just to reply to Dave. Snaring is a major trapper issue facing us as something like 85% of complaints by public to F & W is about snares. Dave how many coyotes will you harvest if you cannot use snares in future. Maybe having a "war chest" to fight for continued use of snares as Residential trapper might get your attention.
PS A couple of your $150 coyotes would just about cover your trapper course.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:00 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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There's no mention of this fund in the newsletter that I received today.
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  #15  
Old 04-11-2017, 09:33 PM
sourdough doug sourdough doug is offline
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Hi jack or not before any more money goes anywhere, someone has to come clean on the $2 K that went astray, sev years back
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  #16  
Old 04-12-2017, 07:39 AM
sourdough doug sourdough doug is offline
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CORRECTIION:... It was $200KKKKK.
Computer went into convulsions the other day
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  #17  
Old 04-12-2017, 10:21 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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Doug never heard about the missing $$$ story, however we have new team now at ATA. Lets give them a chance before we hang them out to dry like a fleshed beaver pelt.
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Old 04-12-2017, 12:50 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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Doug never heard about the missing $$$ story, however we have new team now at ATA. Lets give them a chance before we hang them out to dry like a fleshed beaver pelt.
I agree. I have noticed a positive change within the ATA recently and I like the direction that they are taking with the passage of information through newsletter emails. Prior to this the membership was kept in the dark and fed BS. It will take awhile for attitudes to change and people become de-programmed after years of a steady diet of BS, fear and intimidation. I'm happy to see the positive change happening.

I've heard the missing money story before. If there is any merit to it then just have a forensic audit done on the books and be done with it either way.

Back to the original topic......RFMA lease holders are looking for financial help from people that have no skin in the game. Are these same Trappers ready to step up and lobby to reduce the price of the mandatory Basic Trapping course to help others financially? Same, same imo.
Question #4 in the ATA survey is the place to lobby for it anonymously and it costs nothing.
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Old 04-12-2017, 12:57 PM
nube nube is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf View Post
Doug never heard about the missing $$$ story, however we have new team now at ATA. Lets give them a chance before we hang them out to dry like a fleshed beaver pelt.
Surprised you havn't heard about the missing money before!
And I am on the same vote as yes things are looking better at the ATA this last little while.
The future for trappers is not looking all that great so hopefully with some new changes we will start to see a few more positives.
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Old 04-12-2017, 04:47 PM
sourdough doug sourdough doug is offline
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[QUOTE=HunterDave;3515577]

I've heard the missing money story before. If there is any merit to it then just have a forensic audit done on the books and be done with it either way.

Honestly Dave....WHO do you think would attempt to undertake or even bring up the subject with the people that are STILL pulling the strings...
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Old 04-12-2017, 08:46 PM
Brian Bildson Brian Bildson is offline
 
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Anyone who was an active ATA member and actually attended the AGM or rendevousz would know exactly what happened years back re the funds and the fact that the RCMP did an investigation. But I guess its more fun to be ignorant of the facts. Makes for good gossip about your betters.

Like a lot of white collar crime the RCMP were reluctant to pursue and recommended civil action for recovery of funds. However when someone is being actively investigated by painfully slow RCMP investigators it gives them a lot of time to dump assets.

There's someone to blame all right and her first name is Karen. The rest is just muck raking by people who didn't care enough to get the facts.

Anybody who traps and doesn't become a member of the ATA doesn't have much of a voice with me. Anyone who is a member of the ATA and doesn't know what's going on should attend their local meetings and get informed.

Or don't... and then you can be like Nube and just figure the future of trapping isn't so great. Don't lose faith brother Nube!

I choose a different attitude. I'm actively supporting the organization and pitching in. And having my say about things I'd like changed, but expressed at my local meeting. That works for me me but I get it that everyone takes a different path. Some guys just bitch and never make a change.
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:16 PM
sourdough doug sourdough doug is offline
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I think most everyone who was around at the time knows who was involved, HOWEVER, the question has always been...why was it so long before this "creative bit of accounting " was discovered. With all the office activities and meetings going on during this period of time, mostly being related to the new proposed building, again I ask...WHY....where were our execs.???... HELLO.!!!

Last edited by catnthehat; 04-13-2017 at 06:37 AM.
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  #23  
Old 04-12-2017, 10:17 PM
nube nube is offline
 
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You see a bright future Brian?
Tell m please what you think is positive?
I see NAFA trying to support ranch and phasing out Wild fur.
The Antis's have us by the balls
The GOV or Alberta and their Bios are not on our side.
Mandatory courses coming maybe at a cost way above standard in other provinces
The future for free hanging snares is who knows as whisperings of changes are coming.
Fur prices could use a boost
I am sure i could think of some more negatives if I wanted to spend some time at it but there are a few things I see.

But with all that I I just want you to know I have signed up for a 2 year membership. Is that not supporting?
How many people does the odd trapper take out in a year trapping? I know i have introduced a few myself this year. Is that not supporting?
I volunteered to be part of a wolf killing team as well that I didn't need to participate in. Wish it got it's self off the ground and actually happened because i killed 15 wolves this year again. Why? Not for money that is for sure. Because I am a trapper and sometimes despite not pocketing a paycheck i still love it and I need to do my part.
Could i do more?
Ya I could but I sure would like to think at least I am doing something and a whole lot more than a lot of guys out there.
As for money lost or stolen or missing or whatever, it was before my time. Anything i have heard has been passed down to me via rumour mill. Who knows what happened. I am sure there is truth on both sides of the fence but what was done is done and I doubt anything is going to change. It's time to move along.

As for a slush fund to fight the bad guys.... well if one is needed why don't we just raise our yearly membership and put X amount away than trying to survive by donations. That way it's fair for all and if it doesn't get used could add up after a decent amount of time.
K , I'll go back and hide in my corner now...
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  #24  
Old 04-12-2017, 10:29 PM
Redcoat27 Redcoat27 is offline
 
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It is easy to use the RCMP as a scapegoat. The ATA should have principles/practices in place to prevent this. Hopefully it is an expensive lesson to learn from.
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:01 AM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian Bildson View Post
Anyone who was an active ATA member and actually attended the AGM or rendevousz would know exactly what happened years back re the funds and the fact that the RCMP did an investigation. But I guess its more fun to be ignorant of the facts. Makes for good gossip about your betters.

Like a lot of white collar crime the RCMP were reluctant to pursue and recommended civil action for recovery of funds. However when someone is being actively investigated by painfully slow RCMP investigators it gives them a lot of time to dump assets.

There's someone to blame all right and her first name is Karen. The rest is just muck raking by people who didn't care enough to get the facts.

Anybody who traps and doesn't become a member of the ATA doesn't have much of a voice with me. Anyone who is a member of the ATA and doesn't know what's going on should attend their local meetings and get informed.

Or don't... and then you can be like Nube and just figure the future of trapping isn't so great. Don't lose faith brother Nube!

I choose a different attitude. I'm actively supporting the organization and pitching in. And having my say about things I'd like changed, but expressed at my local meeting. That works for me me but I get it that everyone takes a different path. Some guys just bitch and never make a change.
HELLO! If you attended the AGM or RV you would have gotten a version of what happened and that's not the same as the truth. You know that thing called credibility right?

Well I'm going to tell you what BB, you have absolutely ZERO credibility with me on anything relateded to trapping in Alberta and I wouldn't believe a thing that comes out of your mouth. It seems to be in vogue with some people to write their own fictitious accounts of history that suits their personal agenda, despite the facts. You say that there was no investigation yet you state that you know who was at fault. You know this how.......because someone who potentially could have been involved told you so? Who's watch did it happen on, how did they let it happen, and why weren't charges pursued? It was $200K for crying out loud!

Last year you defended what the "Bios", who supposedly created the transfer of traplines policy all on their own.....right out of thin air! You thought that it was the best thing since sliced bread. Out of friggin touch much? Everyone that has paid attention to the facts, whether they attended meetings or not, knows damned well that the crap that we are dealing with now is a result of key people within the ATA lobbying for it, it's documented. Supporting the dogs breakfast that was put out by the "bios" tells me one thing.....you were in on it!

I have never in my life seen the level of conflict of interest, shady backroom dealings, greed, selling of traplines just in time, etc, as I have seen as a member of the ATA. It all goes ignored, or in the case of guys like you, DEFENDED! How in the hell does anyone expect to have any credibility when stuff like that is allowed to happen?

So now here you are, pointing fingers at people who don't attend meetings, the RCMP, Karen (?) and anyone else that you can think of, that it's their fault for what has happened/is happening......Wow, lol! At what point do you think that everyone should start paying attention to the facts and stop blaming everyone else for the series of unfortunate "coincidences" that have occurred one after another?

I support the ATA and encourage as many Trappers as possible who care about trapping to join it. Knowing that it isn't possible to flush the turds out of the ATA, I figure that the next best thing is to dilute them and at least hold them accountable. It's really unfortunate that the present administration has to deal with all of the crap that was created by past administrations but it looks like they are dedicated to bring in positive change. I'm hopeful.

Last edited by catnthehat; 04-13-2017 at 06:39 AM.
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  #26  
Old 04-13-2017, 09:13 AM
dugh dugh is offline
 
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Just remember that the ATA board is volunteer. I personally support the board. I may not agree with all decisions but overall I support them. I have a good understanding of the extreme frustration they face in dealing with the new provincial government and know they receive a lot flack from trappers, ATA members and non members alike. It's a challenging position to be in. I'm grateful that they are not a bunch of quitters or we would be in complete disarray and easy pickings for the provincial government.
Also I feel there is a place for past Presidents on the board (I know Barry is busy at work but a past pres's. experience would be an asset) and say what you wish about our past past President but GK has a ton of business saavy and I would sure want him on my team in any dealings with the province.
Thanks for listening.
Doug
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:42 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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Just remember that the ATA board is volunteer. I personally support the board. I may not agree with all decisions but overall I support them. I have a good understanding of the extreme frustration they face in dealing with the new provincial government and know they receive a lot flack from trappers, ATA members and non members alike. It's a challenging position to be in. I'm grateful that they are not a bunch of quitters or we would be in complete disarray and easy pickings for the provincial government.
Also I feel there is a place for past Presidents on the board (I know Barry is busy at work but a past pres's. experience would be an asset) and say what you wish about our past past President but GK has a ton of business saavy and I would sure want him on my team in any dealings with the province.
Thanks for listening.
Doug
Doug, while I admire your loyalty, I think that overlooking personal agendas, obvious conflicts of interest and general miscellaneous shenanigans, is a mistake. You can still be loyal to an organization without overlooking those things. I am loyal to the ATA and that is why I take it personally when an individual(s) conduct themselves in a manner that is detrimental to the credibility of the ATA. The good that the ATA does becomes over shadowed by the antics of a few.

Oh, GK's business savvy alright...... In fact, everything that has happened is all a part of the "Detailed Business Case for the Alberta Trapping Program" that he was involved with (spearheaded). The first part of it was to get Basic Trapping course made mandatory, not at an affordable cost, at a cost guaranteeing that it would be highly profitable.

Next, he lobbied for years to bring in even more mandatory courses AND workshops.....on an ongoing basis! What the "Bios" developed was eerily similar to what is known that GK lobbied so long for. Did you honestly believe that the "bios" developed that entire Trapline Transfer piece of garbage all on their own, right out of thin air?

Read this article: http://www.albertaoutdoorsmen.ca/arc...ts-mar-10.html

Here's the part about the requirement to produce fur receipts:

[I]The Business Case also lays out quite clearly the minimum standards by which a trapper would have to abide to retain his “active” status, including the submission of an RFMA plan by April 30th of each year that shows the trapper is active and utilizing his RFMA to its sustainable harvest potential. Fur harvest records that include the signing of a statutory declaration confirming the fur report is correct, must be submitted each year along with fur receipts/returns as well.[I]

Here's the part about additional mandatory training:

"Trappers must also maintain a “minimum level of competency” that includes upgraded training, ultimately enhancing the image of trappers and their professionalism and “force non-trappers or inactive trappers to make decisions regarding their involvement in the program”. "

The mandatory courses listed on the "bios" RFMA Trapline Transfer document were even cut and pasted from GK's privately owned trapping school......not from the list of ATA's courses.......from Trapper Gord's! Meanwhile, GK has been busy building new cabins in anticipation of all of the business headed his way. Yes indeed, I would agree that he is very business savvy.

IAW the ATA bylaws, "The immediate Past President shall for a period of one (1) year, form part of the Board of Directors.", and, "The Executive Steering Committee shall consist of the President, Vice- President, and two (2) board members, and or alternates, who will be chosen by the Board of Directors annually. The immediate Past President will form part of the Executive Steering Committee for a period of one (1) year immediately following the election of the new President of the association. The function of the Executive Steering Committee will be to direct the association business between Board Meetings. Meetings of the Executive Steering Committee shall be called by the President, when deemed necessary for the business of the Association. Executive Steering Committee meetings may be conducted through conference calls, and or e-mail, or other means of communication as agreed upon by the steering committee. A quorum for the executive Steering Committee meetings shall consist of a minimum of 75% of the Committee members.

Well, that period has long expired yet it is still very much GK's ATA. In January, I made an email inquiry to the ATA President and she CC'd her response to GK. Why is she sharing ATA business with him when he is no longer a part of the Steering Committee?

Out of everything that the "bios" put out in the Trapline Transfer policy, I predicted with absolute certainty that the mandatory Basic Trapping course would not be eliminated from the document......and I called it right. It was the only issue that remained on the interim agreement. How did I know that it would happen? Because the agenda has been/is to bring in more and more mandatory courses.

Past administrations have dealt a serious blow to the ATA's current CREDIBILITY and it is something that will take hard work to regain from many Trappers. The ATA is supposed to be an advocacy, not a business primarily focused on generating revenue, and they need to get back to what they are supposed to be doing for trapping in Alberta. Otherwise, the Association will shoot themselves in the foot. Here's to hoping that they can get the train back on the tracks.
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  #28  
Old 04-14-2017, 12:38 PM
Brian Bildson Brian Bildson is offline
 
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Not commenting on your commitment Nube, just telling you don't lose faith. I've seen things worse.

Dave if I knew you I'd probably take it as a compliment that your viewpoint runs counter to mine. But I don't so I can only judge you by your posts. And we don't agree, so what?
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:01 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian Bildson View Post
Dave if I knew you I'd probably take it as a compliment that your viewpoint runs counter to mine. But I don't so I can only judge you by your posts. And we don't agree, so what?
Facts are a bugger, eh?
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:08 PM
Brian Bildson Brian Bildson is offline
 
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Dave what would you know about facts? Here one for you though. At one time this trapping forum was vibrant and helpful to trappers. Then a few trolls followed by blow hard know it alls showed up and this is what's left. Some good guys on here but watch they'll move on too as long as no one calls on the BS. I'm not going anywhere...I'll outlast you guaranteed.
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