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View Poll Results: Penetration or expansion?
Penetration 68 57.63%
Expansion 50 42.37%
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  #1  
Old 12-16-2018, 05:02 PM
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Default Penetration or Expansion?

Not intended as a Burger Vs TTSX But that is more or less the question.

Assuming you have enough cartridge, say a 308 at 250 yards on an elk, (magnums kind of make any conversation about this moot) would you rather a bullet that will always exit (like a mono) and cause less internal damage or a bullet that expels all energy into an animal and rarely exit (like a Burger, for example)?

I see the merit to both for sure and we definitely have options in the middle as well but for all intents and purposes which of the two would you gravitate towards and why?

Using the 308 example above, what would be your preferred weight retention on a mixed design? (Like Monos are 100%, Partitions are typically 60%, ABs are around 70%, ballistic tips like 50%...) Assume appropriate bullet weights for the bullet design.
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:05 PM
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I like 2 holes, an inny and an outty.
But I do like a bit of collateral damage on the ways thru.
Lighter to average for diameter monos, or a partition/bonded of average weights. Or if bellow 2700 FPS, just gimme a decent cup core slug.

A wee bits of boths.

Take this average mule deer buck shot at 80 yds, with a 300 Wby loaded with 165 TSX’s doing maybe 3060fps at the muzzle.
Here’s the inny(through the ribs.

Here’s the outty, through the meaty part of the front leg(just missed the scapula)


Damn near perfect in my eyes(albeit an exit through the ribs woulda been better)
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:08 PM
sgill808 sgill808 is offline
 
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Wife wants both
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:25 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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For impact velocities between 1800 to 2700 I'll take a bullet like a Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame any day. I don't use Monometals so I can't speak for them. I like to see the bullet stopped,or close to it, before it exits.
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:25 PM
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Accubond has always been the best of both penetration and expansion.
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:36 PM
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I prefer a mixed type bullet wound, not more than 30% loss of total weight to put some fragmentation in them and then the rest to pass through. I also prefer to select bullets that don’t allow the core to separate from the jacket. I wonder why everyone is so afraid of the scapula, Once you strip the meat of them with a nice green bone there paper thin even on an elk or moose you can shine a light through them and flex them quite easy, now the leg bone it’s self is very tuff and I’ve hit a few of them as well and the bullets have still had full pass throughs.
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:46 PM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgill808 View Post
Wife wants both
Mine says she's never had so much on her with so little in her. I guess that's her polite way of saying lose some weight and gain a couple of inches.

I do prefer ttsx
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Old 12-16-2018, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyksta View Post
Accubond has always been the best of both penetration and expansion.
My preferred shot placement is the same as in Dick's picture. It eliminates what could be, in many cases, more difficult recoveries. Too old to handle those.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:00 PM
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In pretend fairy land, like here, bullets will expand to the size of golf balls and blow through both shoulders wrecking everything in between. Every time. This does not happen. And you will not be blowing through many elk if any angles or heavy bone are involved. Cows and calves maybe, bulls of any size not so much. You need enough penetration to hit vital organs from your chosen angle and you need enough expansion to cause enough damage to kill as quickly as can be expected. So pick your compromise. And be prepared to scratch your head over what your chosen bullet does in practice.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
...pick your compromise. And be prepared to scratch your head over what your chosen bullet does in practice.
Lol you see through my question to easily

If you don’t make it to vitals you will never kill it but if you don’t do enough damage you will be chasing the elk forever.... either can be a lost elk. Accubonds and Partitions seem to always come up, but then so do TTSX and even Burgers and Ballistic Tips (like the 120 7mms)
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:12 PM
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First I’m not sure what you mean by a mono causing less internal damage from my experience with the GMX and TSX I get two holes and extensive damage. Lots of blood shot meat more if I catch a bone. I haven’t persyused a Berger bullet so I have no first hand information but was told from a good friend they leave a brutal mess on game. He does a lot of long range shooting and loves them for that application. Lots of guys on here have used noslers partitions with great results interlocks used to be my go to until failsafe’s and mono’s came along.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:13 PM
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I wouldn’t hunt trophy bull elk with an Accubond. But that is just my choice.

Barnes TSX or North Fork would be my choices.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:14 PM
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Energy transfer is not what kills, damage to vital systems is what does it. Both bullet designs can easily disrupt the heart or lungs, but a bullet that breaks apart on impact can put less volume through the vitals if the shards are stopped by bone or deflect into non lethal areas. For this reason I prefer monometals. Even when lethal the meat trimming process can be more work and messier with highly frangible bullets.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:16 PM
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Default bullet performance

I typically use bigger guns, and prefer a heavy-for-caliber,well constructed bullet that offers good expansion, and lays up on the off-side under the hide. Expend all the energy the bullet has to offer with minimal meat loss.
Having said that, bullet placement trumps all. If I do my job, the tracking is non-existent. Can't recall the last time I have had to track an animal of any kind, and most pile-up within sight.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
I wouldn’t hunt trophy bull elk with an Accubond. But that is just my choice.
Why not? Just wondering...
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by thundergrey View Post
Why not? Just wondering...
I’ll post a picture of what a Whitetail will do to one when I get home tonight.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundergrey View Post
Why not? Just wondering...
X2
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:21 PM
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A bullet needs a bit of both in the real World.
However if I had to choose just one , a varmint bullet over a FMJ to hunt big fanecwith it would by the FMJ.
Neither is my choice if I gave a choice however so I did not participate in this poll
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
A bullet needs a bit of both in the real World.
However if I had to choose just one , a varmint bullet over a FMJ to hunt big fanecwith it would by the FMJ.
Neither is my choice if I gave a choice however so I did not participate in this poll
Cat
Have you tried the ABLRs yet? This is kind of why I am asking. They seem to hold 50% for penetration and shed 50%. They seem closer to Partitions (at 60%) then their standard Accubond cousins at around 70%. Wondering if this is too much of a good thing or even better? Especially at standard velocities and typical hunting distances.
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Old 12-16-2018, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundergrey View Post
Have you tried the ABLRs yet? This is kind of why I am asking. They seem to hold 50% for penetration and shed 50%. They seem closer to Partitions (at 60%) then their standard Accubond cousins at around 70%. Wondering if this is too much of a good thing or even better? Especially at standard velocities and typical hunting distances.
I have been hunting with a rifle chambered in 303 Brit for quite a few years now , and aside from Speer and Seirra the only bullets I have been using are C.I.L. or Barnes TSX 150’s because there not many other choices , and none needed IMO
They are accurate and they kill animals quickly .
I have used lots of different brands of bullets in the past and they all World super if I put the bullet where it needed to go .
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
I wouldn’t hunt trophy bull elk with an Accubond. But that is just my choice.

Barnes TSX or North Fork would be my choices.
This, plus the Tipped Trophy Bonded Bear Claws,, basically a cheaper version of the North Forks
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:36 PM
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I'd rather have a bullet do in and out than one that doesn't exit.
2 leaking holes are better than one.
I still think partitions are the best " overall" bullet built!
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:25 PM
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I most certainly would use an accubond on a trophy bull elk or moose, and I would use a partition on the same animal, but I would not use a accubond on a deer, I dont think there is enough animal there to get the max out of an accubond, I would use a partition on a deer though.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundergrey View Post
Not intended as a Burger Vs TTSX But that is more or less the question.

Assuming you have enough cartridge, say a 308 at 250 yards on an elk, (magnums kind of make any conversation about this moot) would you rather a bullet that will always exit (like a mono) and cause less internal damage or a bullet that expels all energy into an animal and rarely exit (like a Burger, for example)?

To each his own. If someone prefers a huge wound channal, go for it. If another prefers two holes, let him have it.

As for me, I choose neither. Expansion, penetration, two holes or one, make no never mind if the shooter can't hit the side of a barn from inside the barn.

In some places in the world they hunt Deer with centerfire .22 rifles. In Africa more then a few Elephants have been felled with the (despised by many) .303 Lee Enfield.

For me, accuracy trumps all other considerations. I prefer to get close and aim carefully. That way I don't have to spend a small fortune on rifles, scopes, high end ammo and all that comes with successfully making long range or awkward angle shots.

For some the challenge is in the equipment they carry, for others the challenge is in their stalking ability. neither is better then the other.

And both need to have good accuracy for the style they choose or they will wound game, even with the best ammo money can buy.

So for me accuracy is my number one choice and the two choices you list are not even in the running.
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Old 12-16-2018, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm View Post
I most certainly would use an accubond on a trophy bull elk or moose, and I would use a partition on the same animal, but I would not use a accubond on a deer, I dont think there is enough animal there to get the max out of an accubond, I would use a partition on a deer though.
Good grief man.

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Old 12-16-2018, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Good grief man.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/m8HcEKx.jpg[/IM]
Yah that isn’t ideal for sure. I haven’t had luck with the Accubonds on deer (except when I spine shot them) but they have served me well on elk. Have had 3 long runners that all “seemed” like solid shots but must have either broke up like yours or pinholed them. Or just a pulled shot. But I am pretty confident that if I was using a Ballistic Tip they would have been dead on the spot.

The elk I have shot with an Accubond (all under 50 yards) have all dropped with the bullet on the far hide. Weighed one 140 at 102grs with a picture perfect mushroom. Thought they would have passed through though.
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm View Post
I most certainly would use an accubond on a trophy bull elk or moose, and I would use a partition on the same animal, but I would not use a accubond on a deer, I dont think there is enough animal there to get the max out of an accubond, I would use a partition on a deer though.
Lol
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgill808 View Post
Wife wants both
LMFAO!!!


For the OP, depends on what.......larger game like elk and moose, penetration. Deer, antelope, sheep, etc I go for expansion. Accubonds for penetration, partitions or bergers for expansion depending on what. Partitions for deer and sheep, bergers for antelope, ewes, etc
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:32 AM
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I learned to hunt with army surplus or hand-me-down rifles, and hardware store ammo.

That equipment left one no choice but to get close and place your shots very carefully.
As the years slipped by we bought better rifles and found better sources of ammo and learned to reload.
So we gained confidence in our equipment and our abilities and started shooting at game at greater and greater distances.

Through it all we learned that such shots are possible but they carry with them a whole lot of variable the shooter has no control over.
Variables that can lead to wounded animals.

There is wind drift, animal movement, unseen branches variations in ammo and a host of other pitfalls one does not see in short range hunting.

So many of us returned to short range hunting.

I can understand why some folks think that expensive gear and long range shooting is all there is. We go with what we learned.

But there are alternatives that don't require long range sniping ability and the risks that come with it, or the cost of equipment and components that will perform reliably at longer ranges.

I also think all the talk about long range shooting, or finding the perfect bullet or the perfect rifle may lead beginners to some unfortunate conclusions.

It certainly seems to be the case on threads such as this.

Terminal ballistics is interesting and all. But in the real world terminal ballistics takes a back seat to accuracy every time.

Couple accuracy with short range and you have a much more predictable result without the need for expensive equipment or the latest and greatest in technology and equipment.

Money saved can be used to have more days out hunting.

Seems like a win win for me. Unless spending money is where the thrill is for that individual. If that's the case, enjoy!
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Old 12-17-2018, 06:20 AM
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Lots of good bullet designs out there now that give both. Here are a couple Nosler partitions out of two different moose on the left. The most deformed bullet was found in the spine after crushing a fair bit of bone. The far right is an old barnes x I believe. Can’t remember what it came out of as it was someone else’s bullet. I like the fact that the partition expands quickly and then holds together to punch out the other side in most of my experience. I have not recovered many as almost all of them have exited. Having two holes is a good thing in my opinion.


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