Iginla: The few Ignorant VS Common Sense

[Doodle30]

Originally Posted by Dentye

I would love to here the argument for Sakic being a power forward in the sense of a physically imposing player. Pretty sure he is not a power forward but would be considered more of a true goal score personnaly.

Your comments about young players being a lot more brittle in todays game is interesting to me as well. Lindros sure didn't seem to be made of steel or forsberg for that matter. Out for long stretches time with foot and ankle injury's that cut his career short. I would also argue that Hall could as his career develops could turn into a power forward as he has the size and strength to be one just depends on how he develops his style.

Also not relying on the draft seems to be the thing that has gotten the Flames into the most trouble because now they are just a bunch of old guys with no young talent to come up and replace them. Have a look at most of the teams around the NHL that are succesful right now. Hawks, Penguins, Bruins, etc have all built through the draft to some extent or another. The only teams that haven't done this would be Detroit and maybe Florida this last year but that could be a stretch as well.

Just my 2 cents.

My only arguement is Detroit did build through the draft for the most part. All their top players are drafted players and have been there for ever.

You have to be able to draft well to win. Just to expensive to build soley through free agency.

[Dan Foss]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

When did this become Oilers vs. Flames? I know it always has to come down to that.

At what point is Iggy going to be worth more in a trade than he is on the ice? Many people and hockey people say about now is that point. If Calgary is out of the playoff race by deadline time they should ask Iggy about waiving his no trade clause. Again Dan doesn't want to talk about the law of diminished returns.

He ain't getting younger. He ain't getting better. The team has no chance to get better with no picks and no cap room. Guess the Flames are better off with the status quo. 9th place team that will never win the big game.

I thought this whole thread was about Calgary. To bad it seems to be the Flames fans have to compare to the Oilers or belittle them. Personally I say hope you don't trade Iggy and stay a non-playoff team. Take the Maple Leaf route of trying to buy players and still can't win for crap.

Detroit has proven you can build though smart drafting with a mix of veteran players.

Its not oilers vs flames. It is just the easiest example to use because they are so close and the perfect example of the "rebuild" theory. Calgary was once there. for a long time. 9 years. Now the debate is whether or not we should go there again. Since Edmonton is currently there it is the only logical comparison.

You want me to talk about diminished returns? I Dont talk about it because I dont believe in it. If I started getting rid of something because it has started losing its future value, I would get no where. Crosby is worth less now than 2 years ago because of his Post concussion syndrome. Pittsburg should trade him? Dramatic example but it is an example. I am a guy who believes in loyalty and attitude. You need guys like that on every team to make other people want to be there and work hard. Thats why those guys always make the best leaders.

Examples of guys who had that in the league and when they left the team folder or because they were traded or "moved on" they're production fell off because they no longer had the sentimental connection with the team: Kovalchuk, Heatly, Hossa, Holik, Gaborik, (how many other big name trades or acquisitions have busted?)

I strongly believe that not only do players play better when they have an intimate connection with the team and city but the teamates see that and it motivates them to play with a higher drive / passion

[Dan Foss]

Originally Posted by Doodle30

My only arguement is Detroit did build through the draft for the most part. All their top players are drafted players and have been there for ever.

You have to be able to draft well to win. Just to expensive to build soley through free agency.

Like I said it is all about balance. and when I said that I was refering to the flames's current situation because they have pretty much had no draft the past 4 years. I was also reffering to REBUILDING and that it isn't ALL about the draft when rebuilding. To maintain talent amongst year classes you have to draft.

[Dan Foss]

Originally Posted by GustavMahler

What's an Iginla?

[Gust]

Originally Posted by Dan Foss

Doooode, or dude,,, my English teacher played for Pitsburgh back in the day, the broadstreet bully days,, just before the mandatory helmets and flashy players adorned the ice,, my chem teacher who was also a jesuit priest (who Kokanee9 only remembers as really mean) played for the Montreal Maroons, and these guys made the broadstreet guys look like fluffed cotton candy,, he told me that they used to stuff magazines in their socks for shin pads and the main goal of the first period was to get the guys who shoot high to pick off the goalie not the net. A friends dad was coached under Atol Murray of the Hounds, go look him up,, Calgary needs a new coach is'all, one like Murray.

Oh and one of my dads fishin buds is or was the oldest rookie in the NHL, Connie Maddigan, who also had a bit part in "Slap Shot". So there!

But that's ok.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHMi-j7W2gM

[Gust]

and I want to add that I only go to WHL games as the NHL lost me when they started adding teams from places where you can grow pineapples,, I'm to purist,, if a puddle don't freeze hard enough in winter to skate on, then your town shouldn't get a team. Not to derail.

Some think Tretchiak (<sp?) was the best goalie ever,, any takers? Ok, I'll start a Tretchiak thread.

[Dentye]

LKike mentioned before though you need to know when the point comes that it makes better sense to trade Iginla to try and restock the shelves a bit for the future. I would be surrprised to see him moved this year and actually would rather see calgary try and move Kipper out as I think he has lost more of a step than Iginla has. Move him out east to Tampa Bay who is in desperate need of a number one goalie for some draft picks and a solid NHL player (don't ask me who that would be because I have no idea). The Flames have a couple of promising goalies and could probably afford to make this type of move. Also as well as Glencross has played this year you may be able to move him for more than you think because teams are always looking for gritty secondary scoring players come playoff time and I think if he was offered up there would be a lot of interest in him.

Unfortunately there is just only so much they can do because of large contracts that have enough years on them that it gets tough to move guys like J-Bow, the Joke man etc to try and gain any picks or roster players for next year. Also by not moving Iginla this year your pretty committed to getting him resigned next year as I think his stock does down since he will be UFA at the end of next year I believe. It would be interesting if they took the Panthers template from last year and trade or buy out just about everyone on the team and then go out and sign the best talent available or use the picks gained as trade incentive to make some trades.

I agree with you Dan that balance is needed but currenltly the Flames are a long way from balanced between trading/acquiring players to drafting them quite concerning if I was a fan!

[Sundancefisher]

Iginla is not the problem...the problem is pervasive on the team. Dump and grind hockey wears out players, is boring to watch and drives skilled players to ruin.

Years and years of this has relegated Calgary's prospects to crap as we struggle each year to buy our way out of the pit and try and at least have one playoff series.

Iginla was a strong contributor and in some respects still is. But at -4...offensively he is not doing the trick. I feel it is partly age (30%) and partly Sutter style (70%). Age is growing and Sutter style is shrinking cause as he gets slower...Sutter style will work better...but only to a degree. If he went to a skilled team...he would have a few years left to flourish. As it stands now...getting weaker and weaker...more and more tired...all Calgary does is lose a chance to rebuild. Getting a Cammy for a great prospect and high draft pick...seriously? Anyone like that? Another attempt to buy a playoff position at the expense of any chance of getting bettery. We already destroyed Cammy's play style once...he left...did great...now we have him again to break.

When presented with a problem...usually the simplest solution is the best. The team sucks...replace the team.

[Dan Foss]

Originally Posted by Dentye

LKike mentioned before though you need to know when the point comes that it makes better sense to trade Iginla to try and restock the shelves a bit for the future. I would be surrprised to see him moved this year and actually would rather see calgary try and move Kipper out as I think he has lost more of a step than Iginla has. Move him out east to Tampa Bay who is in desperate need of a number one goalie for some draft picks and a solid NHL player (don't ask me who that would be because I have no idea). The Flames have a couple of promising goalies and could probably afford to make this type of move. Also as well as Glencross has played this year you may be able to move him for more than you think because teams are always looking for gritty secondary scoring players come playoff time and I think if he was offered up there would be a lot of interest in him.

Unfortunately there is just only so much they can do because of large contracts that have enough years on them that it gets tough to move guys like J-Bow, the Joke man etc to try and gain any picks or roster players for next year. Also by not moving Iginla this year your pretty committed to getting him resigned next year as I think his stock does down since he will be UFA at the end of next year I believe. It would be interesting if they took the Panthers template from last year and trade or buy out just about everyone on the team and then go out and sign the best talent available or use the picks gained as trade incentive to make some trades.

I agree with you Dan that balance is needed but currenltly the Flames are a long way from balanced between trading/acquiring players to drafting them quite concerning if I was a fan!

A few things I agree with you on, finally. lol. YES TRADE KIPPER. good god. I've said that one for a long time. The guy is hot and cold and inconsistent. And now it the perfect time to do it because of how he has played this year. Several teams in the past couple years have shown that goalies can be a dime a dozen. ( Chicago) This is one area Calgary has done well in. Irving looks good, Karlsson has proven himself and Ramo..... Let them fight it out. Do what LA did going into last season. Plan to split games between Karlsson and Irving till one steps up. This would also be huge for freeing up cap room and like you suggested bring in some prospects from a team needing a goalie.

Glencross wont be going anywhere and I am happy with that. The guy is a perfect 2nd liner. He signed a no trade clause with calgary and took a home town discount because this is where he wanted to start his family. Cammy is the same age as bourque was, turning 30 this year. Not what calgary should have been looking for in my opinion. As far as the trade I think the trade was good quality for quality wise but I dont think its the right direction calgary needs to go. If he returns to old form i would change my mind and have him compliment Iggy.

Jokinen needs to go, bouwmeester needs to go, Tanguay I am on the fense because I love his style of play and often is one of the hardest working players but I think once he is healthy, he could fetch a couple good prospects. Stajan, Stepniak,Hannan could all be put with a play for a package to get a couple prospects. Calgary has alot of players in the 27-29 range that are having pretty decent years that could be package for some up graded prospects.

I still say that you can rebuilt without having to go ground up. Don't need to get rid of Iginla. Infact I believe it is counter productive to do so. You need those strong leaders and characters in the room to develop and push prospects faster.

[creeky]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Iginla is not the problem...the problem is pervasive on the team. Dump and grind hockey wears out players, is boring to watch and drives skilled players to ruin.

Years and years of this has relegated Calgary's prospects to crap as we struggle each year to buy our way out of the pit and try and at least have one playoff series.

Iginla was a strong contributor and in some respects still is. But at -4...offensively he is not doing the trick. I feel it is partly age (30%) and partly Sutter style (70%). Age is growing and Sutter style is shrinking cause as he gets slower...Sutter style will work better...but only to a degree. If he went to a skilled team...he would have a few years left to flourish. As it stands now...getting weaker and weaker...more and more tired...all Calgary does is lose a chance to rebuild. Getting a Cammy for a great prospect and high draft pick...seriously? Anyone like that? Another attempt to buy a playoff position at the expense of any chance of getting bettery. We already destroyed Cammy's play style once...he left...did great...now we have him again to break.

When presented with a problem...usually the simplest solution is the best. The team sucks...replace the team.

Exactly so get something for Iggy and Kipper (our all world goalie) whilst their stock is high and do it this very season please.

Iggy is getting half lifed every time he takes a shift cause he's got a couple of semi skilled goons hazing him in every game in game out. Can you imagine what he would achieve on a balanced contending team, his production would blow your mind, instead he's playing with a bunch of plugs and what a waste of pure unadulterated talent and heart that surely is!

Realisticly a rebuild is not gonna happen cause the Dome is continually sold out and the owners are making money.

[slivers86]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

LOL give your head a shake and think for a second. So the Ducks are going to say "We are bottom of the standings. We have to rebuild. Let's trade one of our best young players who's already all-star caliber and who's best days are yet to come, and throw in a super high (top 5) first round draft choice and get ourselves an aging star who can still play now, but probably not in a few years"

Maybe the Oil would trade The Nuge AND Hall for Iginla. I mean, Iginla has more goals in his career than both of them put together, right?

Anaheim has openly stated everythings on the market except selanne and koivu. I think that being said, the team is not looking to rebuild, rather get older, like the flames have for the past 8 years.


nug is having a good year, don't expect it to be consistant. Hall is a better bet for long term consistancy. I agree with a previous post on the forums - RNH is a bit soft... I think he will end up like crosby - retiring at age 25... mark my word, crosby will be out again after 3-5 games with post concussion again... eric lindross relived.

[chadyaz]

A few thoughts:

1) This team wont compete for the cup for a few years minimum, so Feaster should trade Iggy now to prepare for future. When this team is capable of competing, Iggy will be over the hill and ineffective as a scorer. So trade him this season to get a solid prospect and a first rounder in return. His value will be at its peak near the trade deadline when a team will over pay for his services. (all this hinges on him being willing to accept a trade for a chance to win the Cup with a different team)

2) Calgarys biggest downfall over the years has been poor drafting and an inability to develop sub par picks. Feaster has replaced the scouting staff, so our draft choices this year could improve. It cant get any worse. Only time will tell.

3) With 9 UFA's and 2 RFA's at the end of this season, there is a legitimate chance that this team will be drastically different next year compared to this year. With a lot of the aging players moving on, the prospects we have in the system coupled with free agent signings in the off season, next season and beyond doesnt seem as dark. Feaster isnt cut from the same cloth as D. Sutter. He doesnt want a dump and chase, grinder type of team. He wants to have a team filled with talent, and I think he is making steps to get the Flames to that point.

4) Regardless of where the Flames finish at the end of this season, this year is almost a write off for me. I'm excited to see what this team looks like next season. Im willing to accept a poor finish this year (missing the playoffs) if it means that the team is building for the future.

Just my thoughts. Flame away...

[Smokey]

Originally Posted by Dan Foss

Ok so I commented on the ones that stuck out to me but there is a couple things to address:

1) the who argument of let him go....... Sure if he wants to. but he doesn't He wants to do it in this city. What are you going to do, force him to go against his will because the fans think he deserves it? WRONG.

2) (this is the big one) So it seems like the main attitude towards the trade him group is the whole "this team cannot with with its current group of players" attitude. I am not even gonna touch the people who debate his skill, heart, capability to play because I think I already tackled that.

I will be the first to admit, the flames may be entertaining to watch as they push to squeeze into the playoffs and the emotional highs from that roller coaster are great but no they probably will not win anything with this current group of players. But I have been saying this for years, YOU DON"T NEED TO START FROM THE GROUND UP TO REBUILD A TEAM. The thought is absolutely silly to me. Why blow everything up and be a basement deweller that nobody wants to play for. It is not a successful rebuild model as Edmonton is going to find out. Calgary did it once. took 9 years and some special players to reverse that trend and now we are a city that people want to play for. No body is busting down doors to come here but unlike Edmonton, People aren't knocking each other down to leave. Just ask true flames fans, how many quality prospects did we have during our "drought" that went on to play elsewhere and be very successful. It seems like every year there are former flames lighting it up in the playoffs for other teams. No one wanted to play here so they left when they could. Just like what will happen in Edmonton when the players will be able to qualify for UFA.

No doubt rebuilding involves bringing in prospects which this team has greatly failed to do. But when you do you need someone to lead them. Iginla is the perfect leader. Teach them how to be professional. Teach them work ethic. Teach them not how to play like champions.

Anyways back to the point about rebuilding doesnt require you to blow up your whole team. If that was the only way to do it then explain why Detroit hasnt done that in 40 years and is a every-year powerhouse? Once again this is where our management has failed. But just because your rebuilding doesnt mean you have to sell everything. You still have to create an environment where other players want to play. Where prospects are not counted on to carry the team. Where they can develop. If you ask me blowing up a team is the worst way to rebuild. Then you have to fight so many other outliers in order to recover. Iginla CAN win a cup with this team. It doesn't have to take 5-10 years to rebuild a team and the team doesnt need to be a wash for that span of time either.

a) people want to play for a winner/a boarder line playoff team with potentential not a basement dawg
b) PLayers want to be where the fans are involved (that doesnt happen when you dont win. see (a) above
c) you need to have a credible leadership group on the team with a mix of experience. (older and middle aged leadership group)
d) you have to mave management that can procure prospects through draft as well as lower market deals.

The Flames won`t make the playoffs, 4 points out, 4 teams to catch with multiple games in hand. Team is healhy as its going to be, and their a 500 club. Ya, I`m an Oilers fan, and we blow chunks right now, and were all drinking the copper koolaid, but I will say one thing about the fans in Edmonton, were not in denial about where we sit. We became the Islanders of the North. Got an old boys management team that does know how to develop talent for ten years, a junior hockey coach, and to many injured small players. But we have hope, Hall, Omark, Pjaravi, Eberle, and the Oil City Madman, NUGE. You guys got your Kipper, and Iginla and their better then anything we got a moment, but wheres the youth. Bart is a second or third line center, then what. Flames fans are still living in 2003, the Oil fans are living for 2013.

[Kingfisher]

Originally Posted by Dan Foss

Ok I got some catching up to do as it seems like this exploded and i wasnt able to check it last night.

I am just gonna deal with this comment right now (dont worry I got another big post to address a trend in your post rob as well as many others it seems on the thread.)


NO Iginla was not one of those players. Because he was a player from the "old school" game. When players were built to be tough. If you weren't tough you wouldn't last in the game. Players coming up now are the "pure goal scorer" type. Super fast. smaller. and were taught that they are protected by the rules if they get hit too hard. It is a fact that the players coming into the league now are not as tough as players used to be. That has alot to do with the shift of the the game. When you look back at 200-2005 (pre lock out) the top scorers where all power forwards. Forsburg, Sakic, Jagr, Thorton, Burtuzzi. Post lock out there is a switch to pure talent players like Crosby, Malkin, Hall, etc. Definitely none of these guys can be considered power forwards. Ovechikin is a little bit of an exemption. It is a switch in the style of the game. This is the big concern with relying heavily on the draft for star players, like the Oilers. The young players are alot more brittle than they used to be purely based on the shift in the style of the game.

Dan, I don't disagree with you totally. Yes the players available at the moment seem to be less, power forwards and more skilled. I believe it has everything to do with a guy who runs the league. (Betman) He has never played hockey. He has made sure the rule changes take out hitting in the game. In essance we now have a european style of hockey being played in NA. Which is a shame. The players are worried about hitting each other and getting a suspension. Brendan Shanahan should be ashamed of himself. If he were still playing he would be the first to be suspended under these rules. Not that I am saying some players don't deserve a suspension. Some certainly do. But players like Marchand who got a 5 game suspension for bending at the waist and checking "Above the knee" should never happen. At what point does a player have to be responsible for himself on the ice. Keep your damn head up and you won't get hit. Drop your head and expect to get nailed. Simple as that.

The game is not what it used to be. I doubt it ever will be. We will all have to get used to a european style of hockey. That's why our Jr. team lost to the Russians. Think about this. The Russians lost to our Jr. and Sr. teams for years and years. So how do they go about fixing it. They change their coaching strageties. They coach a North American style of hockey now. Dump and grind. Hit in the corners and forecheck, forecheck, forcheck. Get your opportunites and shoot the puck. For decades (some of us are old enough to remember the Russian teams of old) the Russians would skate around the ice and only get 5 or 6 shots a period. But those 5 or 6 chances were quality chances. Now they shoot at every opportunity. They changed to our system and now we have changed to their system.

It makes me sad to watch the old games on TV when they show the real hockey replays of the 70's and 80's when players would get the puck and know full well they could get nailed. Real hockey. Not this poofter watered down version we see today.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that no matter what you or I do the game has changed, and the players they draft will change with it. It is a sad state of affairs that Betman has led this league into.

One thing to add Smokey your exactally right on the money with your comment. I am a Flames fan, But I totally agree with you.

Flames fans are still living in 2003, the Oil fans are living for 2013.

You couldn't have said it better. Flames fans have to take their heads out of the sand and look to the future, not the past.

The only reason the Flames won the stanley cup in 89 was because the great Oilers teams pushed the Flames to be a better team. I certainly hope the new Oilers team does the same thing agin. A few more years and they will be a force to be reckonned with. Are you ready Flames? I doubt it. Time will tell.

Rob

[Dan Foss]

I like your post King, it is true what you say about the changes in the league and the European style of play. And it is really sad. I still disagree with your statement of the Oilers though. Its not calgary fans living in 2003. its calgarys management. I think it is a consensus amongst everyone regardless of desired method, the team will not win like this and needs to be rebuilt. Unfortunately are options arnt really though draft. And I have said it all along...... To all the people saying Edmonton will be good in x years. The players will leave when they get a chance.

[creeky]

Originally Posted by Dan Foss

I like your post King, it is true what you say about the changes in the league and the European style of play. And it is really sad. I still disagree with your statement of the Oilers though. Its not calgary fans living in 2003. its calgarys management. I think it is a consensus amongst everyone regardless of desired method, the team will not win like this and needs to be rebuilt. Unfortunately are options arnt really though draft. And I have said it all along......

.

Yep, right behind the Captain of the Costa Concordia

[Dentye]

Originally Posted by Dan Foss

I like your post King, it is true what you say about the changes in the league and the European style of play. And it is really sad. I still disagree with your statement of the Oilers though. Its not calgary fans living in 2003. its calgarys management. I think it is a consensus amongst everyone regardless of desired method, the team will not win like this and needs to be rebuilt. Unfortunately are options arnt really though draft. And I have said it all along...... To all the people saying Edmonton will be good in x years. The players will leave when they get a chance.

Not to turn this into an oilers thread but I do love when everyone says that all these young kids are going to pack up and leave once their rookie contracts are up. HA! Why does everyone want to play in Detroit if your going by city living standards? Detroits population has been on the decline for a number of years. THe reason that they go to play there is due to the fact that Detroit has a culture of winning and iceing winning hockey teams. I am not saying that Edmonton has that yet and will not have it this year or maybe the year after but I can see in the near future this type of culture being around this team. Look at the Hawks bringing in all these young guys to play together and develope/grow as a team and the main guys are all still there. This is what I think is happening in edmonton with their young guys and players will be more willing to sign in Edmonton if they feel they have a shot at the cup.
If Edmonton is so bad then why isn't every free agent hockey player trying to get signed by the Panthers? Till recently they have sucked thats why but I think now that they have a good core and are winning games you will see more free agents end up there. The that the Oil need is to develop some consistency in their game as they have shown they have the ability to play with some of the best teams. THe flames may win more games this year and maybe next but they are headed towards a big road block in the next couple of years and then it will be a great time to be an Oil fan.

Dan I understand what your saying about rebuilding and not having to gut the team down to the basement like the oil have done but when you have nothing in the basement in the way of developed players there are not many options left to try and rebuild on. Just ask the Leafs about how easy that is to go out and sign free agents and undrafted talent out of University to ice a competive team! From where I sit those look like the only two options available.