For All Us Acreage and Rural Folks

[Dean2]

Saw this yesterday. Everywhere I have ever lived, even in the country, fire services were part of your taxes. apparently not true everywhere. I sent an email off to the County of Sturgeon to see if they engage in this nonsense too. Would be a hell of a shock to find this out after the fact.





EDMONTON -- It was a cold day at the end of Jan. 2021, when Samantha Zemlak got a call from friends telling her the garage on her Beaver County property was on fire.
“It’s hard to see years of hard work literally gone up in flames,” Zemlak said.
“My husband and I started out here with nothing. We built ourselves a little cottage and eventually saved up enough money to build our home,” she said fighting back tears.
Zemlak said the blaze was sparked by ash from a coal fired water exchange system. It spread to a fence then to the shop. But it was a large propane tank that concerned firefighters on scene the most.
“At about 11:30pm it stopped flaring and they (firefighters) didn’t know why,” she said.
“At any time they told us that the tank could explode. The vapours could ignite, the tank could go and it could take out the back of the house.”
They, along with nearby neighbours were evacuated. Around the same time Zemlak said the fire chief asked her how much fire fighting insurance coverage she had.
“And that was when we first became aware that our municipal taxes didn’t cover the fire fighting services,” she said.

“We’ve known about it all our lives,” said Gene Hrabec, Beaver County’s Deputy Reeve.
“Some people new to the area don’t.”
But the Zemlak’s have lived on their property for more than 20 years.
“We were under the assumption that as municipal taxpayers that our county, that was part of the services provided so that was our big wake up call,” said Zemlak.
About 24 hours into the fire battle, Zemlak said she was informed that her insurance covered fire fighting up to $10,000 but by that time the bill was already around $50,000.
“It took our breath away,” she said.

The couple were then faced with a decision: keep firefighters on scene and watch their bill climb, or take the risk on themselves.
“It was horrible,” said Zemlak. “It was absolutely terrifying because for one we didn’t know how long the tank was going to burn.”
They made the decision to send crews home after signing a release form. She said firefighters gave them instructions on what to watch for and what to do.
With help from friends, they watched the propane tank for another 36 hours.
“We followed the instructions we were given. We put the flame out and then continued to hose it for the hour to create the ice cap and then we were done,” said Zemlak.
“The bill we received was just over $62,000. Had we kept crews on site we could have incurred $120,000 cost.”

But after doing some research, Zemlak doesn’t believe her bill should be that high.
“I can’t just pay that $62,000 bill and not question how it was created, the fee schedule and legitimacy. I’ve been in contact with the office of Municipal Affairs and they agree it appears that there could have been a procedural error,” she said.
Zemlak found that a fee schedule, when attached to a bylaw, cannot be amended by a motion. Documents show Beaver Emergency Services Commission has approved fee changes four times since 2014 using a motion.
As a result, Zemlak believes she and others in the county who have required firefighting services should be charged based on the original bylaw.
Zemlak is in the process of filing complaints with the Commission and provincial Ombudsmen.
“The difference is approximately half. The difference in my bill, even if I don’t argue with a line item, will be over $37,000 difference,” she said.
Deputy Reeve Hrabec, is also the chair of the Beaver Emergency Services Commission. He said they strive to do things right and the bylaw has been sent for review.
“I believe that we’re following the proper procedures but like I say, we have sent it for legal advice to ensure that our bylaws are up to date.”
The Zemlaks have since increased their fire fighting insurance coverage and hope others will learn from what they’re going through.
“Most municipalities in rural Alberta have a fire service fee and not enough people know that. Not enough people know that they can go to their insurance company and ask for additional coverage,” she said.
Zemlak said her family will pick themselves up and work a little harder to take care of their new debt.
“We work at it and we’ll continue to do that. We’ve never been people that don’t pay our bills.”

RELATED IMAGES

• The garage one Beaver County resident is having to pay $62,000 in fire fighting fees for after it burned down in January of 2021 (Supplied/Courtesy Samantha Zemlak).
  

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[northerntrapper]

It seems if you live in the country, you have very limited police and fire protection. Considering we look after our own water, sewer, protection services, the only thing we get from our taxes is a grader now and then for our tax money. It's time for some pressure to either lower our taxes considerably, or start providing some services.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by northerntrapper

It seems if you live in the country, you have very limited police and fire protection. Considering we look after our own water, sewer, protection services, the only thing we get from our taxes is a grader now and then for our tax money. It's time for some pressure to either lower our taxes considerably, or start providing some services.

The province just reduced their share of rural policing and education costs, exacerbated by tax shortages from the energy sector. look for an increase in taxes or even less service. I'm told our county covers fire fighting costs, except in unusual situations, like failing to get a fire permit.

Grizz

[Dean2]

The whole idea of charging residents to have the fire department do their job is way past stupid. How can they possibly justify a $62,000 bill for 5 hours of fire services. Even at $100 an hour per fireman and $200 per hour for each piece of equipment how would you justify that size of a bill. On top of that, no fires, the equipment sits idle, volunteer fighters aren't paid anyhow and the paid ones are sitting around cooking Chile. How does it cost much more to have them out fighting a fire rather than hanging around the Fire Station. At least they get to use all the training we paid for.
Sure appears to be one more example of lets way over charge the insurance companies, because we can.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Dean2

The whole idea of charging residents to have the fire department do their job is way past stupid. How can they possibly justify a $62,000 bill for 5 hours of fire services. Even at $100 an hour per fireman and $200 per hour for each piece of equipment how would you justify that size of a bill. On top of that, no fires, the equipment sits idle, volunteer fighters aren't paid anyhow and the paid ones are sitting around cooking Chile. How does it cost much more to have them out fighting a fire rather than hanging around the Fire Station. At least they get to use all the training we paid for.

My take on it is, we may elect Councilors, but the Beaurocracy makes the decisions and they're out of control. My local councilor is not even allowed to talk to the employees directly, there is a hierarchy that has to be followed. Sundre , a small town went with a volunteer fire chief for 30 years , then on a whim, fired him and decided to hire a full time paid chief at a cost of nearly a hundred grand. Nothing much had really changed to warrant that and people are not happy.

Grizz

[flyrodfisher]

Apparently the county of sturgeon charges too...see linked thread
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=397582

[cody j]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

My take on it is, we may elect Councilors, but the Beaurocracy makes the decisions and they're out of control. My local councilor is not even allowed to talk to the employees directly, there is a hierarchy that has to be followed. Sundre , a small town went with a volunteer fire chief for 30 years , then on a whim, fired him and decided to hire a full time paid chief at a cost of nearly a hundred grand. Nothing much had really changed to warrant that and people are not happy.

Grizz

In my experience sometimes these beaurocrats seem to answer to nobody are accountable to nobody, and many councillors only care about things that directly affect them and their buddies nothing else. Some MDs have a pile of waste and mismanagement and their elected officials seem fine with it

[Who Da Fisherman]

I suggest people check with there counties, mine is covered.
https://www.county.wetaskiwin.ab.ca/220/Fire-Services
WDF

[Pixel Shooter]

Looks like strathcona county $640 hour for upto 5 people and equip. sounds reasonalbe

https://www.strathcona.ca/files/file...solidated_.pdf

[flyrodfisher]

Originally Posted by Pixel Shooter

Looks like strathcona county $640 hour for upto 5 people and equip. sounds reasonable

https://www.strathcona.ca/files/file...solidated_.pdf

Nope...;the $640/hr is for up to 2 people

Also interesting to note that the Strathcona fee schedule consists of 130 pages of FEES.
Are you getting anything for your property tax $?????

[ssyd]

The worst part of the article is the American-style response from these first responders when told the bill was getting outrageous. "Can't afford the bill? Okay we'll just pack up and leave."

[fishtank]

Might be cheaper to have a fire suppression system build on to the house .

[hilt134]

If firefighting services aren’t covered personally I wouldn’t consider myself part of the municipality to begin with and they can take their taxes and shove it. Not only is it an absolutely outrageous rate but how isn’t firefighting insurance a requirement is that sort of area. I’m all for people being as aware as they can be but for somthing this large and out of the norm you think it would be a part of buying property

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Dean2

The whole idea of charging residents to have the fire department do their job is way past stupid. How can they possibly justify a $62,000 bill for 5 hours of fire services. Even at $100 an hour per fireman and $200 per hour for each piece of equipment how would you justify that size of a bill. On top of that, no fires, the equipment sits idle, volunteer fighters aren't paid anyhow and the paid ones are sitting around cooking Chile. How does it cost much more to have them out fighting a fire rather than hanging around the Fire Station. At least they get to use all the training we paid for.
Sure appears to be one more example of lets way over charge the insurance companies, because we can.

So they charged her $62,000 to show up and watch her house burn with her?
Seems reasonable.

Even if you said $350/hr for each piece of equipment and $150/hr per man, that's roughly 10K.
And they didn't save anything, they just showed up and made sure the fire stayed put.

In other circumstances I'm sure they couldn't charge enough for saving life or limb, and people would be happy to pay.
But in this case it sure sounds like they didn't do much.

Maybe they should start charging based on the value that they save?

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by fishtank

Might be cheaper to have a fire suppression system build on to the house .

You could easily do it for half of what she paid.

[jungleboy]

Just had a look at Lac Ste Anne county. Looks like it is the same situation there . I have a small property in Lac ste Anne county and pay similar taxes to what I pay in Stony Plain.
What do I get for those taxes? Well the grader filled my driveway in once this winter ,so there is that.

To be fair ,this is quite an elite type of property with amenities such as 2 small sheds and a 15 yr old fifth wheel trailer on it.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by ssyd

The worst part of the article is the American-style response from these first responders when told the bill was getting outrageous. "Can't afford the bill? Okay we'll just pack up and leave."

Don't shoot the messenger. They answer to someone like everyone else does.

[sillyak]

$2083/hour for firefighting services????

You can get two good sized drilling rigs, running 24 hours per day for that.

[hilt134]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Don't shoot the messenger. They answer to someone like everyone else does.

Seems like a bit of a cop out. It’s technically a paid service emergency or not. Was the homeowner given levels of service by the firefighters? Was there an option to have a skeleton crew set out with minimal equipment? Did she even call the fire department? If she didn’t should she have to pay for services rendered? There is reason to shoot potentially the messenger when they can actively drive up the bill. I’m assuming that they are actually stand up firefighters like most are. But they could easily have called in more guys to drive up the cost.

Also the fact that the deputy Reeve came out and said the he knew about the price all the time and that some new people don’t. I’d be fine for that chap to be voted out on that comment alone. Talk about garbage community engagement

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by cody j

In my experience sometimes these beaurocrats seem to answer to nobody are accountable to nobody, and many councillors only care about things that directly affect them and their buddies nothing else. Some MDs have a pile of waste and mismanagement and their elected officials seem fine with it

I have a good friend who's a councilor, so I get to hear both sides. People think they are omnipotent and can do whatever suits them, Reality is they are minions of the province and have to toe the line, while getting **** on by both sides. The province keeps cutting funding and expect them to make up for it, while the constituents constantly bitch about minor issues they are powerless to deal with, many of them petty or just plain screw balled . Hours of the day or week don't matter to these people and my friend even got a death threat. It's a thankless job.

Grizz

[Talking moose]

If my place is on fire I’m pulling the shotgun out and chasing the firefighters off!
Literally.
I can’t justify paying 63,000.00 to firefighters for a 40,000.00 trailer. Lol

[flyrodfisher]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

If my place is on fire I’m pulling the shotgun out and chasing the firefighters off!
Literally.
I can’t justify paying 63,000.00 to firefighters for a 40,000.00 trailer. Lol

Charge them for using your trailer for firefighting exercises....lol

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by hilt134

Seems like a bit of a cop out. It’s technically a paid service emergency or not. Was the homeowner given levels of service by the firefighters? Was there an option to have a skeleton crew set out with minimal equipment? Did she even call the fire department? If she didn’t should she have to pay for services rendered? There is reason to shoot potentially the messenger when they can actively drive up the bill. I’m assuming that they are actually stand up firefighters like most are. But they could easily have called in more guys to drive up the cost.

Also the fact that the deputy Reeve came out and said the he knew about the price all the time and that some new people don’t. I’d be fine for that chap to be voted out on that comment alone. Talk about garbage community engagement

I don't think its up to the crew at the scene to negotiate the contract lol. Home owners should also do their own research on what their insurance covers.

[LeroyvdH]

Cities do the same. Friend of mine had a car accident. They showed up walked around for a hour and a bit took off. $1200.00 bill.

[mac1983]

Thank god the County of GP still has common sense, just talked to my
councilor, who is also the fire chief, and municipal taxes cover all fire services.

[tri777]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

If my place is on fire I’m pulling the shotgun out and chasing the firefighters off!
Literally.
I can’t justify paying 63,000.00 to firefighters for a 40,000.00 trailer. Lol

^^This !

5 hrs being billed at over $62,000 = $12,500 hr

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by mac1983

Thank god the County of GP still has common sense, just talked to my
councilor, who is also the fire chief, and municipal taxes cover all fire services.

same in this part of the woods.

[Talking moose]

I got messaged that I’m bashing firefighters. I’m not. Guess I should of said paying the county instead of saying firefighters.
Nobody’s bashing firefighters. That’s a given.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by fishtank

Might be cheaper to have a fire suppression system build on to the house .

That would be a good building code requirement that I would like to see brought in.
There is an unreal expectation that a fire department can save a burning house that is out of town.
If response time is more than 12 minutes the fire generally has grown to the point where a safe entry is not possible.
The older house construction materials burn a lot slower than the new ones.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by mac1983

Thank god the County of GP still has common sense, just talked to my
councilor, who is also the fire chief, and municipal taxes cover all fire services.

I think much of the "who pays and how" has to do with population density. If there is enough people more of the services are shouldered by the county. In sparsely inhabited ones, the individual land owners take more of the burden. Lots of people are looking at the numbers and dividing it by the hours and are shocked at the high hourly rate, but who pays for the fire halls, equipment training etc when not being deployed? Does anyone know what a kitted out fire truck is worth? Million dollars I am guessing (if anyone knows for sure please chime in).

As per population density Beaver County is 1.8ppl / sq km. Grande Prairie is 3.8ppl / sq km.