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  #91  
Old 03-08-2019, 09:14 AM
Gammaboy Gammaboy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck View Post
Actually, the most passionately anti vax person I have ever met was an incredibly intelligent and compassionate person....who's own son I met doing a service call at their home. He was unfortunate enough to have an incredibly severe reaction to the MMR vaccine that left him with permanent brain damage and learning disabilty, and other serious physical side effects. Since it happened almost immediately after the vaccine injection, before they even left the clinic, there was no question as to the cause. So, not everyone who is against vaccines is actually a 'frickin idiot' 'stupid' 'low IQ' and all the other ignorant and nasty things that have been said so far on this thread (and as an extension of all the other threads on the topic). The sheer volume of ignorant vitriol against people who hold a contrary view, reminds me of Catherine McKenna having 'no time for any idiots' who are 'deniers' etc etc etc.

And again, for the record, I acknowledge the effectiveness of vaccines in eliminating polio, small pox, and many other diseases. I just hate the brutal ignorant stereotyping that goes on. There actually are people who have had their children grossly damaged by vaccines. I've met a couple of them. The paltry 'compensation' they received from the pharma co and medical liability insurance was pathetic when weighed against the irreparable damage done to their child.

Maybe everyone could just express their opinion without being an ignorant thoughtless dick head?

Thanks for this.
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  #92  
Old 03-08-2019, 09:38 AM
ruffy71 ruffy71 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck View Post
Actually, the most passionately anti vax person I have ever met was an incredibly intelligent and compassionate person....who's own son I met doing a service call at their home. He was unfortunate enough to have an incredibly severe reaction to the MMR vaccine that left him with permanent brain damage and learning disabilty, and other serious physical side effects. Since it happened almost immediately after the vaccine injection, before they even left the clinic, there was no question as to the cause. So, not everyone who is against vaccines is actually a 'frickin idiot' 'stupid' 'low IQ' and all the other ignorant and nasty things that have been said so far on this thread (and as an extension of all the other threads on the topic). The sheer volume of ignorant vitriol against people who hold a contrary view, reminds me of Catherine McKenna having 'no time for any idiots' who are 'deniers' etc etc etc.

And again, for the record, I acknowledge the effectiveness of vaccines in eliminating polio, small pox, and many other diseases. I just hate the brutal ignorant stereotyping that goes on. There actually are people who have had their children grossly damaged by vaccines. I've met a couple of them. The paltry 'compensation' they received from the pharma co and medical liability insurance was pathetic when weighed against the irreparable damage done to their child.

Maybe everyone could just express their opinion without being an ignorant thoughtless dick head?
I would still call this person you refer to out, if he or she is passionately campaigning to stop vaccines. Yes there are serious consequences, rarely to vaccines. This will likely never change. Just as there are serious but rare consequences to antibiotics. If you have bacterial pneumonia, should I passionately convince you not to take antibiotics? Watch you lay in bed and cough phlegm until you die, like in the good old days?

This is more of a 'problem' with vaccines, because you are healthy when you take them, and because they are so successful, we've forgotten what some of these disease do to people.

This family should get our sympathy, and financial support, and we should compassionately listen to their concerns, and it should push us to get better and better vaccines. But if they can't see the situation for what it is, and they try to convince others to not vaccinate their kids... well then I would still ask them, gently, politely, to shut up.
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  #93  
Old 03-08-2019, 10:12 AM
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Just stumbled on this story, another reason to insist on vaccination.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5033440/o..._campaign=2014


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  #94  
Old 03-08-2019, 10:16 AM
Donkey Oatey Donkey Oatey is offline
 
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For the majority of anti-vaxxers its called Confirmation Bias.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/b...firmation-bias

Basically ignore or shout down any evidence to the contrary and hold on to anything that confirms their bias, regardless of quality or preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

My wife had a major allergic reaction to the Flu Vaccine and has had an allergic reaction to some antibiotics. We are not calling for a ban on those things. She just can't have them and rely on the rest of the world using herd immunity to hopefully protect her. There was nothing wrong with the treatments, just her body couldn't take them.
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From road hunters vs "real hunters" to bowhunters vs rifle hunters, long bows and recurves vs compound user to bow vs crossbow to white hunters vs Native hunters etc etc etc
.....

Enjoy the easy ride, anti hunters. Strange to me why we seem to be doing your job for you.

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  #95  
Old 03-08-2019, 03:14 PM
markg markg is offline
 
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Default For me its simple

If a vaccine can save you from something that can kill you (polio) you take it. If its something that just makes you sick why bother. I had measles mumps and chicken pox as a kid and survived unharmed. No point in a vaccine for those diseases in my opinion. But its just one mans opinion. Feel free to flame away.
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  #96  
Old 03-08-2019, 03:33 PM
ruffy71 ruffy71 is offline
 
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From a super quick and easy wikipedia search I just learned that measles killed 2.6 million people in 1980, reduced to 73,000 by 2014 due to the use of.......
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  #97  
Old 03-08-2019, 03:40 PM
midgetwaiter midgetwaiter is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck View Post
He was unfortunate enough to have an incredibly severe reaction to the MMR vaccine that left him with permanent brain damage and learning disabilty, and other serious physical side effects. Since it happened almost immediately after the vaccine injection, before they even left the clinic, there was no question as to the cause. So, not everyone who is against vaccines is actually a 'frickin idiot' 'stupid' 'low IQ' and all the other ignorant and nasty things that have been said so far on this thread (and as an extension of all the other threads on the topic). The sheer volume of ignorant vitriol against people who hold a contrary view, reminds me of Catherine McKenna having 'no time for any idiots' who are 'deniers' etc etc etc.
Sounds like Guilian-Barre syndrome. It’s an auto immune disorder that can very rarely be triggered by vaccines. My understanding, which is very shallow, is that someone who is suspetible to this can be triggered by the virus or a vaccine in the same way. It’s a raw deal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain–Barré_syndrome

Let’s not pretend that’s the fear most of these people have though.
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  #98  
Old 03-08-2019, 04:07 PM
pittman pittman is offline
 
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Likely an allergic reaction to a component of the vaccine or one of the excipients. Unfortunately allergic reactions are completely unpredictable. That is the main reason people are advised to wait in the clinic for 15-30 minutes after a vaccine.

Scary stuff for sure, but USUALLY, if recognized and treated promptly, there will be no long term consequences other than a day in the hospital.

Regarding the association between GBS and vaccines, the last I heard is that we are still unsure of any causality. The problem is that GBS is so rare and vaccines are so common, it's really hard to tease the association apart. THe good news about GBS is that it usually resolves, though a slowly ascending paralysis would be pretty terrifying.
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  #99  
Old 03-08-2019, 04:15 PM
ruffy71 ruffy71 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by markg View Post
If a vaccine can save you from something that can kill you (polio) you take it. If its something that just makes you sick why bother. I had measles mumps and chicken pox as a kid and survived unharmed. No point in a vaccine for those diseases in my opinion. But its just one mans opinion. Feel free to flame away.
So as I stated measles kills outright, Rubella if allowed to become common again will start infecting pregnant women, which can cause severe birth defects.

Mumps is the closest to fitting your assesment of "just makes you sick" but if allowed to become common again can cause severe painful swelling of the testicles in adults infected for the first time.

So you were unharmed, but if your daughter or granddaughter were to have a child born with rubella syndrome? If your son or grandson has a baby who dies from measles. Could you face them knowing you in your grand wisdom, told them MMR vaccines are for sissies?

If you were contemplating painful swelling of your balls, you wouldn't be slipping down to the doc for a shot to avoid that? I happen to care a lot about my balls, don't know about you.

There's a saying that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Hard to believe, but we're watching it before our eyes.
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  #100  
Old 03-08-2019, 05:21 PM
Weedy1 Weedy1 is offline
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Originally Posted by ruffy71 View Post
So as I stated measles kills outright, Rubella if allowed to become common again will start infecting pregnant women, which can cause severe birth defects.

Mumps is the closest to fitting your assesment of "just makes you sick" but if allowed to become common again can cause severe painful swelling of the testicles in adults infected for the first time.

So you were unharmed, but if your daughter or granddaughter were to have a child born with rubella syndrome? If your son or grandson has a baby who dies from measles. Could you face them knowing you in your grand wisdom, told them MMR vaccines are for sissies?

If you were contemplating painful swelling of your balls, you wouldn't be slipping down to the doc for a shot to avoid that? I happen to care a lot about my balls, don't know about you.

There's a saying that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Hard to believe, but we're watching it before our eyes.
Plus the shrinkage of their testicles and drop in sperm count.
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  #101  
Old 03-08-2019, 05:27 PM
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Found this youtube video that explains the truth behind the anti-vaxxers. Not appropriate for the easily triggered.
**Language warning!**
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A80Rca6IRNY
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  #102  
Old 03-08-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by markg View Post
If a vaccine can save you from something that can kill you (polio) you take it. If its something that just makes you sick why bother. I had measles mumps and chicken pox as a kid and survived unharmed. No point in a vaccine for those diseases in my opinion. But its just one mans opinion. Feel free to flame away.
Kind of reminds me of a wanna be cattle man I worked for once. I pulled his first calf and asked him if he was going to grab the calf's first shots. Nope he wanted them to get a natural immunity. I stopped counting after 33 dead valves out of 75 births. Natural immunity might get rid of some of the human problems I guess. Weed out the weak for ya real quick. Pick 35 of the 75 people you know and think if their lives are expendable, I've had that much loss in my life from tragedy and couldn't imagine taking that loss just from lack of immunization.
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  #103  
Old 03-08-2019, 08:18 PM
shootsblanks shootsblanks is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Dewey Cox View Post
The salvation army and the red cross took down the twin towers.
I'd go into detail, but I've probably said too much already.
your almost there bud,

the real conspiracy is that they were never built!
hillary clintons reptilian alien overlords created holograms of the buildings so that they could (in the future) pretend to fly planes into them,
the reason the other tower went down was because it was hit by the holographic planes that passed through the fake twin towers.


hang on, my tinfoil hat is getting thin from rubbing against my colon.




ok i am back




the reptilian alien clintons then had trump elected to crash the economy, start a war with mexico (and china) and sink the west into a recession, but 4d chess and Q so we are all saved except for Canada, because reptiles being "cold blooded" means they actually like the cold, not that they need a warm environment (another "scientific fact"). so as you read this everyone you know is being assimilated. and you should get a hat like mine (use the bbq grade foil, it is thicker).
i sell them for 49.99 plus shipping, a real bargain,
each one personally worn, tested, and proven, to prevent brain damage from microwave radiation in my modified black and decker microwave oven.
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  #104  
Old 03-08-2019, 08:47 PM
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Trochu Trochu is offline
 
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If some of you put such enthusiasm into the drug problem, it would likely be solved by now. Never met such a big group of people who wanted to mandate what I should or shouldn't pump into my body. The insults flow like water, which apparently doesn't bother the mods, which is odd, as threads have been shut down for much, much less.

We'd likely "save" more people by banning firearms. Some 200+ homicides utilizing a firearm in Canada last year vs what, 5 measles deaths? Start pounding the drums guys, go save some lives, lets infringe more personal freedoms and get rid of firearms! Lets cut the kids stuff though, why not get serious, start a petition to ban the automobile, what are we up to now, 2,000 deaths annually. That's a really good one, save lots of people and a big infringement of freedom. I'm awaiting the petition.

Anyway, carry on with your rhetoric. Didn't someone say a significant portion of information on the internet is false? Proven by the responses in this thread.
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  #105  
Old 03-08-2019, 09:14 PM
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HalfBreed HalfBreed is offline
 
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Originally Posted by shootsblanks View Post
your almost there bud,

the real conspiracy is that they were never built!
hillary clintons reptilian alien overlords created holograms of the buildings so that they could (in the future) pretend to fly planes into them,
the reason the other tower went down was because it was hit by the holographic planes that passed through the fake twin towers.


hang on, my tinfoil hat is getting thin from rubbing against my colon.




ok i am back




the reptilian alien clintons then had trump elected to crash the economy, start a war with mexico (and china) and sink the west into a recession, but 4d chess and Q so we are all saved except for Canada, because reptiles being "cold blooded" means they actually like the cold, not that they need a warm environment (another "scientific fact"). so as you read this everyone you know is being assimilated. and you should get a hat like mine (use the bbq grade foil, it is thicker).
i sell them for 49.99 plus shipping, a real bargain,
each one personally worn, tested, and proven, to prevent brain damage from microwave radiation in my modified black and decker microwave oven.
What do you use as a ground? If the hat isn't grounded, then it is actually amplifying signals.

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  #106  
Old 03-08-2019, 09:22 PM
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Trochu Trochu is offline
 
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Originally Posted by shootsblanks View Post
... reptilian alien clintons then had trump elected to crash the economy, start a war with mexico (and china) and sink the west into a recession....
Historically, don't major conflicts typically bring nations out of recession? Or are you implying the US would lose?
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  #107  
Old 03-08-2019, 10:19 PM
shootsblanks shootsblanks is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HalfBreed View Post
What do you use as a ground? If the hat isn't grounded, then it is actually amplifying signals.

ground? that's where the reptilians live! cant be hardwired into that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
Historically, don't major conflicts typically bring nations out of recession? Or are you implying the US would lose?
the voices say yes.


anyhow i think i have derailed this thread enough, no sense getting in trouble with mods before i hit 50 posts
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  #108  
Old 03-09-2019, 12:50 AM
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Silvercreek Silvercreek is offline
 
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Originally Posted by kevinhits View Post
I have taken to referring to them as Pro-Diseasers, it just sounds better and is not quite so negative.
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  #109  
Old 03-09-2019, 07:24 AM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Originally Posted by markg View Post
If a vaccine can save you from something that can kill you (polio) you take it. If its something that just makes you sick why bother. I had measles mumps and chicken pox as a kid and survived unharmed. No point in a vaccine for those diseases in my opinion. But its just one mans opinion. Feel free to flame away.
Measles kills many people every year. You got lucky.
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  #110  
Old 03-09-2019, 07:47 AM
ruffy71 ruffy71 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
If some of you put such enthusiasm into the drug problem, it would likely be solved by now. Never met such a big group of people who wanted to mandate what I should or shouldn't pump into my body. The insults flow like water, which apparently doesn't bother the mods, which is odd, as threads have been shut down for much, much less.

We'd likely "save" more people by banning firearms. Some 200+ homicides utilizing a firearm in Canada last year vs what, 5 measles deaths? Start pounding the drums guys, go save some lives, lets infringe more personal freedoms and get rid of firearms! Lets cut the kids stuff though, why not get serious, start a petition to ban the automobile, what are we up to now, 2,000 deaths annually. That's a really good one, save lots of people and a big infringement of freedom. I'm awaiting the petition.

Anyway, carry on with your rhetoric. Didn't someone say a significant portion of information on the internet is false? Proven by the responses in this thread.
There were only 5 measles deaths because of vaccines. My God, the whining about insults, you don't get to twist facts and then hide behind hurt feelings. This is a forum for grown ups. If you want to participate, then buck up.

The measles vaccine rate just dipped slightly, and already cases are breaking out. You'll get your wish soon enough, everybody will stop vaccinating, and then we'll see about the 5 deaths. As it stands now, I took the small risk associated with vaccines,, my kids took the same small risk of vaccines, so the few "don't tell me what to pump in my body" people get to stay safe. You're welcome.
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  #111  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:22 AM
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bessiedog bessiedog is offline
 
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Default Sigh.... and again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
If some of you put such enthusiasm into the drug problem, it would likely be solved by now. Never met such a big group of people who wanted to mandate what I should or shouldn't pump into my body. The insults flow like water, which apparently doesn't bother the mods, which is odd, as threads have been shut down for much, much less.

We'd likely "save" more people by banning firearms. Some 200+ homicides utilizing a firearm in Canada last year vs what, 5 measles deaths? Start pounding the drums guys, go save some lives, lets infringe more personal freedoms and get rid of firearms! Lets cut the kids stuff though, why not get serious, start a petition to ban the automobile, what are we up to now, 2,000 deaths annually. That's a really good one, save lots of people and a big infringement of freedom. I'm awaiting the petition.

Anyway, carry on with your rhetoric. Didn't someone say a significant portion of information on the internet is false? Proven by the responses in this thread.
Two problems here:

1. Your freedom of choice endangers my daughters freedom of choice.
What’s fair here...? In any mass society, the Social Contract you have with the group requires you to compromise some freedoms.

2. Linking this to guns is a classic Red Herring argument

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=exdK7Lirngg


We need to do better
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  #112  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bessiedog View Post
Two problems here:

1. Your freedom of choice endangers my daughters freedom of choice.
What’s fair here...? In any mass society, the Social Contract you have with the group requires you to compromise some freedoms.

2. Linking this to guns is a classic Red Herring argument

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=exdK7Lirngg

We need to do better
1. Sounds exactly like what I mentioned.

2. Red Herring or not, the logic is identical, is it not?

I'd say we are doing pretty good measles wise. How many deaths in the last 50 years, 0? Probably time to move on, start caring about stuff that actually matters, heart disease, drugs, cancer, distracted driving....
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  #113  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:39 AM
shootsblanks shootsblanks is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bessiedog View Post
Two problems here:

1. Your freedom of choice endangers my daughters freedom of choice.
What’s fair here...? In any mass society, the Social Contract you have with the group requires you to compromise some freedoms.

2. Linking this to guns is a classic Red Herring argument

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=exdK7Lirngg


We need to do better

while i dont think vaccines cause autism, i have all my shots, everyone in my family has all their shots, etc

saying someone freedom of choice endangers your daughters freedom of choice is incorrect, she can choose to get vaccinated, and someone else can choose not too, they both still have the choice, hers is still a good one, it just isn't as effective.

i know i am picking fly sh** out of pepper but


and social "contracts" are crap, our current society is disgusting and i do not expect anyone to hold themselves to many of the new behavioral expectations.
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  #114  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:42 AM
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No it’s not exactly what you just mentioned. The confidence of decision here rests on whether you think peer reviewed science is more reliable than annecdotal stories on the Web.
....... Iguess if the herd immunity pool breaks down.... and we start seeing deaths, then you and I can have fresh annecdotals to refer to. Because we soooo love our annecdotal.
Instead of historical records.

And no, immunizations and guns are different issues entirely. Sorry.
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  #115  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bessiedog View Post
No it’s not exactly what you just mentioned. The confidence of decision here rests on whether you think peer reviewed science is more reliable than annecdotal stories on the Web.
....... Iguess if the herd immunity pool breaks down.... and we start seeing deaths, then you and I can have fresh annecdotals to refer to. Because we soooo love our annecdotal.
Instead of historical records.

And no, immunizations and guns are different issues entirely. Sorry.
So the issue isn't that someone hypothetically doesn't get their kids immunized, they get measles, pass it to other kids, who end up dead? In a similar matter of guns falling into the wrong hands, mass shooting occurring, and kids end up dead? Noted. Fear of something increadibly rare happening, freedoms infringed, and death, like I said, the logic sounds nearly identical. If that's different to you, so be it, I'm moving on.
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  #116  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:59 AM
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Default My daughter’s choice I’d hampered

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Originally Posted by shootsblanks View Post
while i dont think vaccines cause autism, i have all my shots, everyone in my family has all their shots, etc

saying someone freedom of choice endangers your daughters freedom of choice is incorrect, she can choose to get vaccinated, and someone else can choose not too, they both still have the choice, hers is still a good one, it just isn't as effective.

i know i am picking fly sh** out of pepper but


and social "contracts" are crap, our current society is disgusting and i do not expect anyone to hold themselves to many of the new behavioral expectations.
Due to her having a suppressed immune system, the shots are far less effective for her.



A social contract is whatever humans agree are the conduct rules when they get together bud. Your in a group of two people... you both ‘agree’ to a set of behaviors and expectations ..... hence the idea of a ‘contract’ ... that’s what I’m referring to.
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  #117  
Old 03-09-2019, 09:06 AM
FCLightning FCLightning is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
I'd say we are doing pretty good measles wise. How many deaths in the last 50 years, 0? Probably time to move on, start caring about stuff that actually matters, heart disease, drugs, cancer, distracted driving....
Aren't you forgetting the single most important factor in this - the ONLY reason there are so few deaths from measles is because of a vaccination program. The ONLY way we will stay where we are at is to continue with how we got there.

And no, the comparison to guns is not in the least logical.
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  #118  
Old 03-09-2019, 09:26 AM
ruffy71 ruffy71 is offline
 
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None of these diseases have been wiped out. The viruses are still around, obviously. This is simply a case of vaccines being too effective. The memory of measles outbreaks is gone from our generation. Out of sight out of mind.

When pandemics were the norm, vaccines were considered a gift from God. If you tried to withhold them from parents, you would have been taking your life in your hands. They would have strangled you.

Now that the diseases are rare, we can focus on the rare side effects, and whacko theories.

If enough people don't see the facts of this, the pandemics will return, and people will be screaming that the government didn't do enough to prevent this from happening.

Today: "You can't make me get a vaccine!!!"

Tomorrow "Why didn't you give me a vaccine!!!"

We'll be able to compare the video with the same person saying both things, I guarantee it.
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  #119  
Old 03-09-2019, 09:31 AM
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That’s why I put in the ‘fresh annecdotal’ part.

Cause medical historical records are suspect I guess.


On a positive note.... gotta compliment Trochu and all so far here.... this has been, by my estimation, a fairly civil thread...... so far.


It’s greatto see.

Trochu.... you know I have a great deal of respect for you. I’d be glad to lend you an extra Oilers jersey to wear any day buddy.
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  #120  
Old 03-09-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
So the issue isn't that someone hypothetically doesn't get their kids immunized, they get measles, pass it to other kids, who end up dead? In a similar matter of guns falling into the wrong hands, mass shooting occurring, and kids end up dead? Noted. Fear of something increadibly rare happening, freedoms infringed, and death, like I said, the logic sounds nearly identical. If that's different to you, so be it, I'm moving on.
Not sure you understands what logic means with out looking it up. Just because two separate things take 3 steps to complete does not mean the same logic
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