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  #61  
Old 03-07-2019, 08:31 AM
ReconWilly ReconWilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Okotok View Post
I'm thinking this is a near perfect time to segue into contrails.
How about celiberty pedophiles?
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  #62  
Old 03-07-2019, 09:26 AM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Originally Posted by jstubbs View Post
Most anti-vaxxers I encounter are middle aged moms on FB.
Correct, but you forgot to also mention the slightly lower IQ......
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  #63  
Old 03-07-2019, 09:26 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is online now
 
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Originally Posted by bobtodrick View Post
Did you not see where Sundancefisher states 'a significant portion of information'?
You don't see the difference from something published by a respected educational/research institute and 'well some guy on Youtube says.'?
I take both with a grain of salt.

Sure "some guy on youtube" might be pushing their opinions and possibly lying, but that's no different than a study.

Let me speak your language, It's kind of like winter tire tests.. isn't it funny how most tests are won by the sponsoring tire? I'm sure that has nothing to do with the test (conditions) being done to ensure the sponsors tire wins.. or that the tire manufacturer put up $100k for the test (or directly to the tester's pocket).

Was it an unbiased study? Why were ~6000 kids excluded? Where do you think that institute got the money to do the research?

Data can be manipulated any way you like. Maybe those 6000 kids disproved their theory.

At the end of the day, I have no side in the fight, but it's amazing how hypocritical people can get.
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  #64  
Old 03-07-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by pikergolf View Post
I am not an anti vax'r by any stretch of the imagination, I had my kids vaccinated, and would do so again. But I can understand the angst of parents on the other side. The entire issue is rooted in fear, the anti's are afraid of the perceived side effects, the pro's are afraid of the disease, hence the strong feelings on both sides. Totally understandable. As for the "science" we have seem many cases where science has been wrong. Off the top of my head, thalidomide was safe, cocaine was great for whatever ailed you, smoking didn't cause cancer and was a great relaxer, you get the picture. Parents should have the final say, if you want it for your kids, get it, if not, don't, but be ready to live with the consequences.
You hit the nail on the head. Anti vaxxers scare people into doubting. It's probably time to show parents what can and does happen to their kids when they fail to look after them by using basic modern medicine.
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  #65  
Old 03-07-2019, 09:40 AM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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Quote;
"Sure "some guy on youtube" might be pushing their opinions and possibly lying, but that's no different than a study."
You are kidding....right????
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  #66  
Old 03-07-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ReconWilly View Post
How about celiberty pedophiles?
Not sure what a celiberty is but I detest pedophiles.
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  #67  
Old 03-07-2019, 10:01 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Scott h View Post
Quote;
"Sure "some guy on youtube" might be pushing their opinions and possibly lying, but that's no different than a study."
You are kidding....right????
Like I said "grain of salt"

Anything is possible

God forbid if a "well respected institute" possibly had their own agenda or was influenced by the medical community (where did that money come from again?. Why did they choose Denmark? Is the Vaccination the same as over here?) You see what I'm getting at. Just because a study was done, doesn't mean that the numbers weren't possibly skewed somehow. It's like statistics.. 99.9% of them are 50% correct.

BUT.. I also understand that parents tend to point the blame elsewhere, whenever they can. This youtuber could be jumping on the anti-vax bandwagon and it was nothing more than a coincidence what happened with their kids, and YES, it is still their word of mouth.

I tend to give both the benefit of the doubt.
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  #68  
Old 03-07-2019, 10:30 AM
Mr.F Mr.F is offline
 
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Hopefully the recent outbreaks of measles will prompt more discussion and debate to vaccinate.
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  #69  
Old 03-07-2019, 10:51 AM
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From the study - literally who funded, the role that played and precisely explaining the exclusions. Yay science!

Primary Funding Source:
Novo Nordisk Foundation and Danish Ministry of Health.

Role of the Funding Source
The study was supported by a grant from the Novo Nordisk Foundation and the Danish Ministry of Health. The funder of the study had no role in study design, data collection, data analysis, data interpretation, or writing of the report. Dr. Hviid had full access to all of the data in the study and had overall responsibility for the decision to submit for publication.

Results
We identified 663 236 children born to Danish-born mothers from 1 January 1999 through 31 December 2010 (Figure 1). We excluded 5775 children; 1498 had no registration in the Danish Medical Birth Registry, and 4277 were unavailable for follow-up at study entry (1 year of age) because of death (n = 2673), emigration (n = 770), unexplained disappearance from the source registers (n = 203), an autism diagnosis (n = 11), or an exclusionary diagnosis (n = 620). This resulted in a study cohort of 657 461 children contributing 5 025 754 person-years of follow-up during 1 January 2000 through 31 August 2013.

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Originally Posted by JB_AOL View Post
I take both with a grain of salt.

Sure "some guy on youtube" might be pushing their opinions and possibly lying, but that's no different than a study.

Let me speak your language, It's kind of like winter tire tests.. isn't it funny how most tests are won by the sponsoring tire? I'm sure that has nothing to do with the test (conditions) being done to ensure the sponsors tire wins.. or that the tire manufacturer put up $100k for the test (or directly to the tester's pocket).

Was it an unbiased study? Why were ~6000 kids excluded? Where do you think that institute got the money to do the research?

Data can be manipulated any way you like. Maybe those 6000 kids disproved their theory.

At the end of the day, I have no side in the fight, but it's amazing how hypocritical people can get.
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  #70  
Old 03-07-2019, 11:23 AM
MLayden MLayden is offline
 
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Was curious so I traced the funding...

Novo Nordisk Foundation: Chair of the Board -> Helge Lund -> prior executive at Nycomed, Norway (a pharmaceutical company which creates vaccinations).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac View Post
From the study - literally who funded, the role that played and precisely explaining the exclusions. Yay science!

Primary Funding Source:
Novo Nordisk Foundation and Danish Ministry of Health.

Role of the Funding Source
The study was supported by a grant from the Novo Nordisk Foundation and the Danish Ministry of Health. The funder of the study had no role in study design, data collection, data analysis, data interpretation, or writing of the report. Dr. Hviid had full access to all of the data in the study and had overall responsibility for the decision to submit for publication.

Results
We identified 663 236 children born to Danish-born mothers from 1 January 1999 through 31 December 2010 (Figure 1). We excluded 5775 children; 1498 had no registration in the Danish Medical Birth Registry, and 4277 were unavailable for follow-up at study entry (1 year of age) because of death (n = 2673), emigration (n = 770), unexplained disappearance from the source registers (n = 203), an autism diagnosis (n = 11), or an exclusionary diagnosis (n = 620). This resulted in a study cohort of 657 461 children contributing 5 025 754 person-years of follow-up during 1 January 2000 through 31 August 2013.
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  #71  
Old 03-07-2019, 11:27 AM
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Sure - it's a small world. But read the rest.

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Originally Posted by MLayden View Post
Was curious so I traced the funding...

Novo Nordisk Foundation: Chair of the Board -> Helge Lund -> prior executive at Nycomed, Norway (a pharmaceutical company which creates vaccinations).
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  #72  
Old 03-07-2019, 11:39 AM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is online now
 
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So, to all the naysayers. Polio...just something the government made up to convince all those poor slobs to be vaccinated?
My great uncle, who spent part of his life in an iron lung would be interested (if still alive) on your thoughts on that.
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  #73  
Old 03-07-2019, 11:41 AM
MLayden MLayden is offline
 
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You are very defensive. Dismiss it or not, I don't care. I just posted who was on the board and where he previously worked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac View Post
Sure - it's a small world. But read the rest.
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  #74  
Old 03-07-2019, 11:47 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac View Post
From the study - literally who funded, the role that played and precisely explaining the exclusions. Yay science!

Primary Funding Source:
Novo Nordisk Foundation and Danish Ministry of Health.

Role of the Funding Source
The study was supported by a grant from the Novo Nordisk Foundation and the Danish Ministry of Health. The funder of the study had no role in study design, data collection, data analysis, data interpretation, or writing of the report. Dr. Hviid had full access to all of the data in the study and had overall responsibility for the decision to submit for publication.
A doctor paid by the MofH (assuming he is still working), is also paid to produce this study by the MofH? and is expected to be unbiased?

Ask yourself, what does he/she have to lose if these results show otherwise. If your answer was nothing, then it was unbiased.

Quote:
Results
We identified 663 236 children born to Danish-born mothers from 1 January 1999 through 31 December 2010 (Figure 1). We excluded 5775 children; 1498 had no registration in the Danish Medical Birth Registry, and 4277 were unavailable for follow-up at study entry (1 year of age) because of death (n = 2673), emigration (n = 770), unexplained disappearance from the source registers (n = 203), an autism diagnosis (n = 11), or an exclusionary diagnosis (n = 620). This resulted in a study cohort of 657 461 children contributing 5 025 754 person-years of follow-up during 1 January 2000 through 31 August 2013.
Fair enough, I misread that.
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  #75  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:03 PM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is online now
 
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Originally Posted by bobtodrick View Post
So, to all the naysayers. Polio...just something the government made up to convince all those poor slobs to be vaccinated?
My great uncle, who spent part of his life in an iron lung would be interested (if still alive) on your thoughts on that.
Bob,

1st off, sorry your Great uncle had to deal with that.

2nd. No one is saying these diseases don't exist.

People are questioning the authenticity of the medical system.
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  #76  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:22 PM
FCLightning FCLightning is offline
 
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Suppose we humor the anti-vaxers for a moment and assume that the vaccine does indeed cause Autism. In fact, lets say that it is the sole cause of autism. On this basis we should cancel all vaccinations. Given the numbers of the study we can assume that for every 663,236 children we will now prevent 11 children from becoming autistic. Disregarding the lasting effects that may occur from mumps and rubella, the statistics tell us that somewhere between 200 and 600 of those children will die from measles.
Perhaps the anti-vaxers should start blaming cancer on the vaccines - the numbers would look better for them.
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  #77  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:50 PM
midgetwaiter midgetwaiter is offline
 
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Not even close, thanx for posting.
Oh please do explain good sir.
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  #78  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:55 PM
midgetwaiter midgetwaiter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by MLayden View Post
Was curious so I traced the funding...

Novo Nordisk Foundation: Chair of the Board -> Helge Lund -> prior executive at Nycomed, Norway (a pharmaceutical company which creates vaccinations).
Who do you expect is going to do research on vaccine outcomes, Goodyear?
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  #79  
Old 03-07-2019, 01:12 PM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is online now
 
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Originally Posted by midgetwaiter View Post
Who do you expect is going to do research on vaccine outcomes, Goodyear?
Considering it's basic data gathering, anyone could, Yes. Or at the very least funded by someone who isn't directly benefiting from the very thing they are studying.

IMHO, Optics are everything.
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  #80  
Old 03-07-2019, 01:46 PM
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Interesting story in relation to this thread...

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/pol...ction-platform
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  #81  
Old 03-07-2019, 01:54 PM
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If there any validity to homeopathic, herbal medicines or any voodoo magic cures you can bet big pharmacy would be cashing in on them. Snake oil has been selling for centuries to those that believe in magic and willing to pay for it.
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  #82  
Old 03-07-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by urban rednek View Post
Anti-vaxxers are the latest round of fanatics; arguing with them is like talking to a rock.
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  #83  
Old 03-07-2019, 01:59 PM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is online now
 
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I find it interesting that so many people here are against infringement of our human rights, yet are so aggressively "for this" w/o even a single question.
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  #84  
Old 03-07-2019, 02:10 PM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is online now
 
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Originally Posted by bat119 View Post
If there any validity to homeopathic, herbal medicines or any voodoo magic cures you can bet big pharmacy would be cashing in on them. Snake oil has been selling for centuries to those that believe in magic and willing to pay for it.
I do agree with this comment.

But there has been a large increase in wellness clinics popping up all over Canada. Which goes to show that even Doctors are starting to see the benefits of homeopathic/herbal medicines/treatments, why else would they start a business with them.
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  #85  
Old 03-07-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott h View Post
Correct, but you forgot to also mention the slightly lower IQ......
Actually, the most passionately anti vax person I have ever met was an incredibly intelligent and compassionate person....who's own son I met doing a service call at their home. He was unfortunate enough to have an incredibly severe reaction to the MMR vaccine that left him with permanent brain damage and learning disabilty, and other serious physical side effects. Since it happened almost immediately after the vaccine injection, before they even left the clinic, there was no question as to the cause. So, not everyone who is against vaccines is actually a 'frickin idiot' 'stupid' 'low IQ' and all the other ignorant and nasty things that have been said so far on this thread (and as an extension of all the other threads on the topic). The sheer volume of ignorant vitriol against people who hold a contrary view, reminds me of Catherine McKenna having 'no time for any idiots' who are 'deniers' etc etc etc.

And again, for the record, I acknowledge the effectiveness of vaccines in eliminating polio, small pox, and many other diseases. I just hate the brutal ignorant stereotyping that goes on. There actually are people who have had their children grossly damaged by vaccines. I've met a couple of them. The paltry 'compensation' they received from the pharma co and medical liability insurance was pathetic when weighed against the irreparable damage done to their child.

Maybe everyone could just express their opinion without being an ignorant thoughtless dick head?
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  #86  
Old 03-07-2019, 02:12 PM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is online now
 
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Originally Posted by JB_AOL View Post
Bob,

1st off, sorry your Great uncle had to deal with that.

2nd. No one is saying these diseases don't exist.

People are questioning the authenticity of the medical system.
That's my point...polio has been eradicated...because of vaccines.
As have many other diseases.
In 1980 measles killed 2.6 million people...in 2014 70,000...directly attributed to immunization.
This opposed to one debunked study showing a correlation between vaccination and autism.
Let me guess...man never landed on the moon, the Twin Towers were brought down by the CIA and the earth is flat.
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  #87  
Old 03-07-2019, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtodrick View Post
That's my point...polio has been eradicated...because of vaccines.
As have many other diseases.
In 1980 measles killed 2.6 million people...in 2014 70,000...directly attributed to immunization.
This opposed to one debunked study showing a correlation between vaccination and autism.
Let me guess...man never landed on the moon, the Twin Towers were brought down by the CIA and the earth is flat.
Possibly...
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  #88  
Old 03-07-2019, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bobtodrick View Post
That's my point...polio has been eradicated...because of vaccines.
As have many other diseases.
In 1980 measles killed 2.6 million people...in 2014 70,000...directly attributed to immunization.
This opposed to one debunked study showing a correlation between vaccination and autism.
Let me guess...man never landed on the moon, the Twin Towers were brought down by the CIA and the earth is flat.
Dude, I'm with you in theory but your arguments, like many pro-vaccine ones in this thread and elsewhere, have me pulling my hair. Measles is a tricky one but what you're claiming is not the full story there. But mostly: twin towers = CIA, earth is flat. WTF!?

Stick to medical and scientific facts and you have a great argument. These appeals to logic, herd immunity and other stuff are weak or just flat out backwards.

Vaccines done right are a lifesaver. Here's the studies. There's the statistics and keep to that! IMHO and all...

(My kids are vaccinated, BTW. But I don't support making it mandatory. All of the arguments I've seen for it are easily enough disproven or not important enough to make it mandatory, IMHO.)
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  #89  
Old 03-08-2019, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Rockman View Post
(My kids are vaccinated, BTW. But I don't support making it mandatory. All of the arguments I've seen for it are easily enough disproven or not important enough to make it mandatory, IMHO.)
Sorry, but that's a real headshaker for me.
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  #90  
Old 03-08-2019, 07:34 AM
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The salvation army and the red cross took down the twin towers.
I'd go into detail, but I've probably said too much already.
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