New allowed big game calibers in Sask

[fishduck]

2018 Hunters Guide is out for Sask. Interesting to see this update to allowed big game calibers (down to .17 with restrictions):

[Violation to] hunt big game with:
> any cartridge with an empty
cartridge case length of less
than 32 mm (this includes most
handgun cartridges and all
rimfire cartridges).
> any centre fire rifle cartridge of
.17 calibre.
> or any of the following
cartridges: .22 Hornet, .22 KHornet,
.218 Bee, .25-20
Winchester, .30 Carbine, .32-20
Winchester, .357 Magnum, .41
Remington Magnum, .44-40
Winchester or .45 Colt

[Bowser]

44-40 ???

[bat119]

A 204 Ruger is legal for deer?

[Lefty-Canuck]

The list above is NOT allowed.

“It is a violation to hunt big game with”

LC

[Kurt505]

Wow, the Creedmoor can now be considered a "mid size" cartridge

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Bowser

44-40 ???

As I stated in another thread, rules do not always make sense because common sense is not used in the making of said rules!
Cat

[fishduck]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

The list above is NOT allowed.



“It is a violation to hunt big game with”



LC

That's why I wrote "[violation to]".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by fishduck

2018 Hunters Guide is out for Sask. Interesting to see this update to allowed big game calibers (down to .17 with restrictions):

[Violation to] hunt big game with:
> any cartridge with an empty
cartridge case length of less
than 32 mm (this includes most
handgun cartridges and all
rimfire cartridges).
> any centre fire rifle cartridge of
.17 calibre.
> or any of the following
cartridges: .22 Hornet, .22 KHornet,
.218 Bee, .25-20
Winchester, .30 Carbine, .32-20
Winchester, .357 Magnum, .41
Remington Magnum, .44-40
Winchester or .45 Colt

so the .223 is ok?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

so the .223 is ok?

The 204R is now legal as well.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The 204R is now legal as well.

wow, the 45 grain s.d. is .155, only a few applications for that imo

the .224 stuff over 70 grains will work pretty good and the .224 valkyrie or anything else that can run the 90 grain stuff will be stellar

not sure if there's much in the .204 range over 45 grains though? would certainly limit things to 100 yrds or less with that combo

hopefully AB follows suit, open some doors for sure

[Pathfinder76]

Enough sectional density talk. It is completely irrelevant when it comes to expanding bullets.

[TOG]

Originally Posted by chuck

Enough sectional density talk. It is completely irrelevant when it comes to expanding bullets.

???

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

Enough sectional density talk. It is completely irrelevant when it comes to expanding bullets.

Proof pls

[Don_Parsons]

Does this mean that the 243 & 308 are now obsolete.

Oh boy, guess I'll have to go back to the elephant guns. Ha

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

Does this mean that the 243 & 308 are now obsolete.

Oh boy, guess I'll have to go back to the elephant guns. Ha

Right? Those 90 gr .224 pills have .256 s.d. and .55-.56 bc. That's slightly better on both accounts than 6.5mm 123gr but not quite as good as 6.5mm 130 grain.

Be fantastic on the range and at distance! Still get it done on game with s.d.'s encroaching on 3rd class game territory for gauging penetration ability compared to other bullets.

Chuck, what's going deeper with same launch ft/lbs? Lets choose a .375 h&h 260 gr and 300 gr, both accubonds. You're saying they will penetrate same distance then as one will be going a bit faster than the other but because they are of same construction the weight of the slower one will equalize the extra velocity of the faster one?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Proof pls

Pull a bullet out of an animal and compare it to the same bullet that is unfired. Now study the formula used to derive SD. Look back at the bullets. Rub your chin thoughtfully. Repeat.

If you really want to blow your mind. Pull two of the same bullets out of a dead animal and repeat the above scientific process. Kapow! Mind blown.

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by chuck

Pull a bullet out of an animal and compare it to the same bullet that is unfired. Now study the formula used to derive SD. Look back at the bullets. Rub your chin thoughtfully. Repeat.

If you really want to blow your mind. Pull two of the same bullets out of a dead animal and repeat the above scientific process. Kapow! Mind blown.

IMO sectional density, along with a good number of other variables that we use as comparators between cartridges and bullets, are merely a complicated way of breaking very simple, common sense type concepts down into tables full of numbers so that gun nuts can obsess about this type of BS minutia.

SD, ft lbs, fps... they all more or less work as a rough general comparator when comparing apples to apples, but the more the cartridges and calibers being compared differ from each other, the more the numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt, rather than as scientific fact. Case in point, trying to compare 6.5mm and .224 cal terminal performance on big game by looking at an SD chart

Just my opinion.

[vcmm]

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

Pull a bullet out of an animal and compare it to the same bullet that is unfired. Now study the formula used to derive SD. Look back at the bullets. Rub your chin thoughtfully. Repeat.

If you really want to blow your mind. Pull two of the same bullets out of a dead animal and repeat the above scientific process. Kapow! Mind blown.

lmao, you are missing it, i thought you had found some evidence/math etc. i'd missed around this topic, always eager to learn so i am all ears, you've sort of disappointed me here man, i'll get over it

i see the same cartridge firing two different weight solids, accubonds, partitions etc. through the same medium/animal having different retained s.d.'s and the heavier ones had gone deeper everytime, due to higher s.d. (starting & retained), that's what i see using your visualization technique

love to hear the explanation at a deeper level than this particular technique, of how the two different weights would penetrate potentially the same or possibly the lighter bullet going deeper than the heavier? i'm all ears to learn something new that i don't understand about this yet, and have possibly missed

if we go there then we can get back into the topic of launch it faster it stops faster vs the starting slower it stops slower, the exponential drag losses with velocity, i'm down to dig in if you are

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Bushleague

IMO sectional density, along with a good number of other variables that we use as comparators between cartridges and bullets, are merely a complicated way of breaking very simple, common sense type concepts down into tables full of numbers so that gun nuts can obsess about this type of BS minutia.

SD, ft lbs, fps... they all more or less work as a rough general comparator when comparing apples to apples, but the more the cartridges and calibers being compared differ from each other, the more the numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt, rather than as scientific fact. Case in point, trying to compare 6.5mm and .224 cal terminal performance on big game by looking at an SD chart

Just my opinion.

I agree almost 100%

how do you tell if a new cartridge like say a .224 valkyrie launching a 90 gr bullet at 2700 fps might be enough to do some 2nd class game work or even possibly 3rd class?

comparing energy won't be a good idea, using s.d. and impact velocity will be the most accurate way to figure out if you can get to the offside hide compared to another more 'well known/proven' choice...

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

I agree almost 100%

how do you tell if a new cartridge like say a .224 valkyrie launching a 90 gr bullet at 2700 fps might be enough to do some 2nd class game work or even possibly 3rd class?

comparing energy won't be a good idea, using s.d. and impact velocity will be the most accurate way to figure out if you can get to the offside hide compared to another more 'well known/proven' choice...

In such instances I just say screw it and grab my 30-06

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

lmao, you are missing it, i thought you had found some evidence/math etc. i'd missed around this topic, always eager to learn so i am all ears, you've sort of disappointed me here man, i'll get over it

i see the same cartridge firing two different weight solids, accubonds, partitions etc. through the same medium/animal having different retained s.d.'s and the heavier ones had gone deeper everytime, due to higher s.d. (starting & retained), that's what i see using your visualization technique

love to hear the explanation at a deeper level than this particular technique, of how the two different weights would penetrate potentially the same or possibly the lighter bullet going deeper than the heavier? i'm all ears to learn something new that i don't understand about this yet, and have possibly missed

if we go there then we can get back into the topic of launch it faster it stops faster vs the starting slower it stops slower, the exponential drag losses with velocity, i'm down to dig in if you are

You do realize that expansion happens at the beginning of a wound channel and not the end right? So right when SD becomes important you alter it dramatically. In medium that never produces consistent results. Ever.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

You do realize that expansion happens at the beginning of a wound channel and not the end right? So right when SD becomes important you alter it dramatically. In medium that never produces consistent results. Ever.

Have either of you considered the role of bullet momentum in your studies?
You may find it to play a key role in your penetration calculations and in real life as well.

[saskbooknut]

Minimum energy cartridge used by experienced and careful shooter, who is willing to pass up a poor opportunity - no problem.

The run-of-the-mill hunter is an appalling marksman judging by the inability to keep shots on the target paper offhand at 100 yards, at least at our range.
Add a little excitement in the field and shooting performance declines.

Cartridges with lots of bullet energy do compensate a bit for poor bullet placement, though shot in the guts or the ass are still poor performers. Even good marksmen misjudge the distance or angle of the target animal on occasion.

I think that allowing bare minimum cartridges for big game hunting is ill advised, but that is just my 55 years of hunting experience speaking.

[kujoseto]

Originally Posted by chuck

Pull a bullet out of an animal and compare it to the same bullet that is unfired. Now study the formula used to derive SD. Look back at the bullets. Rub your chin thoughtfully. Repeat.



If you really want to blow your mind. Pull two of the same bullets out of a dead animal and repeat the above scientific process. Kapow! Mind blown.

Oh man, this made me laugh. Chuck I appreciate your unconventional input. Buck the trends to make us think (or argue in most cases)
Please don’t leave this place. It would get mighty boring

[58thecat]

I agree almost 100%

It's that 1% that's keeps us up all night.....

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

I agree almost 100%

how do you tell if a new cartridge like say a .224 valkyrie launching a 90 gr bullet at 2700 fps might be enough to do some 2nd class game work or even possibly 3rd class?

comparing energy won't be a good idea, using s.d. and impact velocity will be the most accurate way to figure out if you can get to the offside hide compared to another more 'well known/proven' choice...

And bullet construction is far more important than SD, especially with the smaller calibers. A 50gr TTSX is going to penetrate a lot more than a 60gr v-max, even though the SD is less.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Have either of you considered the role of bullet momentum in your studies?
You may find it to play a key role in your penetration calculations and in real life as well.

Of course! A bullet doesn’t walk to an animal and then chew it’s way through them.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Bushleague

In such instances I just say screw it and grab my 30-06

this is also a right answer

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Have either of you considered the role of bullet momentum in your studies?
You may find it to play a key role in your penetration calculations and in real life as well.

i tried to learn more about momentum, momentum densities etc. but seem to come around to junk math so to speak, it's too tied into the s.d./velocity equation and doesn't seem to show a difference that explains why something longer and skinnier of the same weight goes deeper as well as s.d. and impact velocity does, i have looked for more info on this a few times but nothing that you'd want in the specs page of a bullet