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  #31  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:21 AM
Coldhill Coldhill is offline
 
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Well thanks guys. I currently shoot a 22-250 Encore single shot 26 heavey barrel, a 6-24 Mil-dot Bushnell is what I have for a scope. I shoot 45 gr JHP from Winchester.
I have been shooting this set up for about 3 years now. I am deadly within 300yrds and after a lot of figuring out I can consistantly hit a 1 L pop bottle out at 400yrds. So maybe a 6" group, prone with a harris. I am sure there are better shooters here, but this is what I am delt with, and thus my ability.
The reason I am looking for a new gun, is this...My hunting partner Katts69 and I fill our weekends calling yoties. He is the better caller , so when he gets them doggs commin, they all come. Usually 2 or three at a time. As I said previous...I have a single shot, and this offers me but a single shot under Most circumstances. So I am looking into a bolt action, of some sorts. Since I already have a 22-250, I have been looking into something different, and that is LEGAL for deer and Antelope.
I picked up a box of 55 gr shells in a 243, and compared it to a 22-250...I was shocked to see that this manufacturer of the 243 offers better balistics than the 22-250.
I have heard great things about the 25-06, but had wanted your opinion on prefrance.

I do not plan to shoot over 300yrds on a deer or antelope, but I am not afraid to fling lead down range at a dogg.
Another question if I may...

what are your thoughts on a 6mm. performance and reliability being concidered?

Thanks again

ch
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  #32  
Old 12-01-2007, 09:18 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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lots of noise with .243...when i switched from it to a .204 ruger...the difference in noise astounded me...sure lots of muzzle blast from the .204 but the down range noise is pretty much nil after 100 yrds....or so a buddy who stood off the side of an impromptu range said....and confirmed by calling coyotes to a couple hundred yrds and missed the lead dog...then 2 minutes later at 300 another is coming in like he heard nothing....and one i did a hail mary on before i had a decent enough range finder and learned the gun to that range....landed at his feet (approx. 600 yrds) and he just hopped up, looked down...and walked away....didn't hear a thing.....

never had things like that happen with a .243 or bigger....never

sounds like you need a couple guns imo, one for coyotes and one for deer but the .243 tikka will do the job too...mine was super accurate and it cycles fast for a hot stand due to the super slick action...and you can get a 5 round mag for it...so with one up the tube equals 6 shots....some stands you need every one of them too

tikka .243 is a great combo gun imo...plus the camo stainless version will fit right in for the coyote calling...might be too perfect for your application actually

good luck with your choice
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  #33  
Old 12-01-2007, 09:49 AM
wind drift wind drift is offline
 
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A question was asked about 55 gr bullets in the .243. My go-to coyote load is based on 58 gr Hornady V-MAX bullets and H414 powder. They leave the muzzle at about 3850 fps. They shoot flat and terminal performance is what you'd want - complete disintegration in the body and no exit. The only downside to this load is that H414 is not as temperature-stable as H4350. Shooting in conditions ranging from +15C to -30C, I've noticed point of impact changing a bit. Not a big enough amount to worry about all the time, but enough to be worth the effort to check for.

Finding this load, and a 100gr Partition & IMR 4831 load suitable for antelope and deer, I've again found happiness in the versatility of a .243. For a loong time, my Ruger 77 was left in the locker, passed over for not being "enough" for deer and "too much" for coyotes. Only reason I don't use it more is that I have other favorite rifles to use as well.

My next step might be to check out 6mm TSX bullets. That might make the .243 a real solid performer on 'lopes and deer (I really like making a hole on each side of those critters).
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  #34  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:28 AM
Mintaka Mintaka is offline
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  #35  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Both of them are lacking energy at long range
Just curious as to what is enough energy...there has been a lot written on the subject and even formulas created...but what do you think the cut off line is. At over 1,000 pounds (shot placement being critical of course), I'd say the .25-06 still has plenty but this is an inexact science at best.
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  #36  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Both of them are lacking energy at long range
Federal lists their 100gr tsx load as having 1015ft lbs at 500 yards,which is plenty of energy for any deer sized animal.

http://www.federalpremium.com/ballis...firearm=1&s1=1
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  #37  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:53 AM
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  #38  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:03 PM
wind drift wind drift is offline
 
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"If the bullet goes through the animal you are wasting energy in the ground".

There's two schools of thought on that matter. Some prefer complete penetration with an exit wound to aid in critter recovery. Others subscribe to the energy approach and want the bullet to come to rest under the hide, far side. Folks in the latter camp also tend to buy in to the "hydrostatic shock" theory. There's plenty of room for campfire debate on this, for sure, 'cause rigorous scientific studies to prove one over another are very hard to design and implement.

My current belief is that the energy aspect is often over-emphasized as a killing factor, particularly when linked to "hydrostatic shock". Energy is mass x velocity, and is best considered one indicator of penetration potential. Enough energy is needed to drive the bullet through an object. The greater the penetration, the longer the wound channel, and the greater the damage to organs, bones and muscle, etc. Where the energy theory kinds of weakens in my mind, is when it comes to the whole "want to find the bullet under the hide" biz. I was able to watch slow-motion footage once of a bullet shot into a deer. The skin on the exit side was stretched waaay out by the bullet before returning to its original position. That really showed how elastic skin is. When this happens, it's the skin that's absorbing that energy, not the actual mass of the body. This doesn't contribute to killing the animal. To me, it's all about making holes in parts critters need to be free of holes to live. I've seen deer fall as fast to a well-placed arrow as to a bullet through the same place (though, I do think that bullets have a greater ability to simply knock critters over).

On the other hand, if the bullet (or arrow) exits, there is a greater likelihood of trackable sign, useful in the event that the deer runs before falling, particularly when there's no snow on the ground.

My impression is that today's gun writers (e.g. John Barsness) are increasingly supporting the "through and through" approach, and want their bullets to make two holes. That's got something to do with the increasing popularity of bonded and solid copper hunting bullets these days.

These "subtleties" aside, putting a bullet into the boiler room of a critter is nearly always a show-stopper, regardless of where it winds up. Fun to talk about for sure.
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  #39  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:00 PM
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One hole-two holes-Hydrostatic shock.........dont matter!

hit 'em hard in the right spot with the right projectile and you got yourself one dead critter!
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  #40  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:26 PM
bignose bignose is offline
 
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Good thread, been thinking about a new rifle for next year, for deer up to no more the 250yds. Looks like either 25.06 or .243 would do it, and maybe .243 a bit lighter, more available ammo. Looks like both will kill well if you get the shot in the right place.
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  #41  
Old 12-01-2007, 06:33 PM
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I'm sure that anywhere that stocks 243 ammo stocks 25-06 ammo...neither is a wildcat by any means. Not sure what you mean by lighter bignose???? Recoil would be slightly higher in 25-06 but not enough to really notice.

Last edited by sheephunter; 12-01-2007 at 06:43 PM.
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  #42  
Old 12-01-2007, 07:04 PM
bignose bignose is offline
 
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thanks sheephunter, that's good to know. I thought the recoil would be quite a bit less in the .243, but if there isn't much difference the 25.06 seems to make a good choice (bit more power, flatter for longer trajectory).

also, i'd assumed ammo would be harder to find for 25.06 (don't know why) so good to know that isn't the case - thanks

B
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  #43  
Old 12-01-2007, 11:31 PM
Mintaka Mintaka is offline
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  #44  
Old 12-01-2007, 11:58 PM
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Not to pick on the Nosler Partition, my conclusion is that you can have too much velocity for a bullet disperse its energy.
Another old myth that needs to be put to rest.The higher the velocity,the greater the expansion,the larger the wound,the more energy transmitted into the animal.The problem that can occur with too much velocity is that a bullet may come apart and not penetrate.If a bullet did not expand at all after being driven through an elk by a 7mm remmag,it would not have expanded at a lesser velocity.However,it is quite common for a partition to leave a small entrance hole,expand and shed it's front core,then exit leaving a very small exit hole.Animals shot with partitions often do not drop as quickly as animals shot with more rapidly expanding bullets.

Last edited by stubblejumper; 12-02-2007 at 12:13 AM.
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  #45  
Old 12-02-2007, 12:53 AM
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You guys are actually talking about two different things and are both right in what you said. Obviously if a bullet passes completely through it hasn't dispersed all its energy but that doesn't mean it hasn't dispersed enough. A bullet travelling at higher velocity has more energy than one traveling at lower velocity so just because the faster one passes completely through doesn't mean it doesn't disperse the same energy as one traveling slower that remained in the body. With that said...extremely rapid expansion of bullets pushed at high velocites can cause them to come apart and stay with in the body. Recovering a bullet is more a matter of the range it was shot at which means the velocity it struck at. Each bullet has an optimum performance velocity but I agree with Stubble that you can't push them too fast to impede expansion...accuracy and too rapid of expansion issues may become a factor then though.

You need to choose a bullet for the velocity and range you expect to be shooting and be happy that it gets the job done at ranges and velocities outside its optimum performance envelope!

And quite truthfully, the effects of kenetic energy in big game animals are not well understood and there are so many variables such as bone and muscle and air...no two shots ever offer the same variables.

Last edited by sheephunter; 12-02-2007 at 01:05 AM.
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  #46  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:05 AM
Cordur Cordur is offline
 
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Ok, this thread is getting more and more interesting. I know they did some crazy things back in the day proving varmint rifles like the 220 swift were capable of taking down the biggest animals Africa had to offer. I was reading about the theory of explosive performance (I'm to young to remember if it was Jack or the other guy, sorry lol) causing the sensational bang flop. It went something like a small caliber driven at extreme velocity being the equivalent of a larger but slower round. I know that later on a few people were killed because the results were not dependable. But now that we have better rounds available which becomes best for varmints like coyotes? I'm not talking about gophers and crows. If you are planning for wolf and coyote hunting and you want the most dependable round what should you be using? Have some of you had a V-Max for instance hit a shoulder and disintegrate without penetration?

Last year I did a lot of experimenting with my 22-250 on a couple of 4X4 wood posts. I should have taken some pictures, but some of the rounds caused a massive blow out on the other side and others made very small exits. The worst were the cheap 40 packs of 55gr JHP from I think Winchester. They were not expanding at all it seemed. But now after what has been said here I wonder if they were just shedding mass too quickly.

Just for the record I'm debating between a 204 and a 22-250 for my next coyote rifle. I want the range of the 22-250 (and have lots of brass) but on the other hand would like to watch the hit through the scope. I might just end up with a 20lb 22-250 which might be everything I've ever wanted
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  #47  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:10 AM
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Why would you not be able to see the shot from the 22-250?
Even I can watch things fall with my 300WSM, I suspect there is more to this probelm than calibre choice.
BTW: 40gr. V-max's out of my 22-250 doing 3900fps, are flat and violent on varmints.
As for the fast and light Vs. slow and large, PM Bobby b and ask him about his soupped up 6 mm wildcat and 70 gr bullets on deer. But remember this is for guys who can place em, a bad placement into a bad place will get you in trouble.
I prefer to blend the situation sticking to bullets designed for big game, and keeping the speeds up.
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  #48  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:19 AM
Cordur Cordur is offline
 
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I sold that rifle Dick. I had suspicions that it was too light for what I wanted and the sporter barrel didn't let me get enough practice in with it as I wanted since heat was too much of an issue. I'm either going to buy a single shot action from Savage or the 12FV and restock it. Also might have a bit to do with the recoil pad you choose as I know a sharp kick makes it difficult. It's not that I didn't see the shot though, just I couldn't watch it through the scope like I can when I'm out mucking about with my 22LR. Think I'm going to trade the 22LR for a lever action though and just pick up a few crates of brass for a centerfire.
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  #49  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faststeel View Post
Was at P&D yesterday and they have a nice selection of Tikka Hunters that have a clearance price tag on them. Hunter model is a blued steel with a walnut stock. There were some very nice Sako rifles there with scope packages on them at well below what normal retail is for these rifles. FS
Can't say enough about the Tikka - any of them. My better half's SS/laminated .308 T3 is the most accurate factory rifle I've ever seen. Sweet trigger, 3-9x40 Zeiss. The deluxe is a beauty too - excellent wood for the money. They're easier on the pocket than the Sako and I believe have the slickest, smoothest action you could ask for. Not quite up to the standard of my M658 Premium 7mm Tikka, but then it's in a class of it's own! Can't go wrong with a Tikka. I'm praying they start to chamber the Boar gun (19" bbl) in the new Federal .338 - looks to be a most impressive caliber. Big gun w/o the big recoil, and perfect when you need it fast. If they do, it'll become my newest pack-for-everything gun.
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  #50  
Old 12-02-2007, 09:57 AM
duffy4 duffy4 is offline
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My first thought was .257 Wethby. mag. But when the 25/06 came up I thought close enough and better avalibility of factory ammo.

I had a friend who had a .243/06 wildcat but I don't know if it had any "real" advantage over any similar factory round.

The .243 was originally developed as a varmint/deer round. (a compromise in both fields).

If you must have one rifle for both kinds of hunting, I guess you can choose between the suggestions here.

I like to have a rifle that is better suited to one task or the other.

(I shot a coyote at 480 paces once with my Win. 70 in .264 win. mag. but I've shot way more at 100 yards or less with my .222)

Robin in Rocky
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  #51  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
I agree with Stubble that you can't push them too fast to impede expansion..
Exactly my point.The faster you drive a bullet,the more it expands.Some people still believe the myth that a bullet did not expand because it had too much velocity.Someone once tried to convince me that he lost an animal because the bullet was going too fast and didn't have time to expand in the animal.He wanted me to load him some lower velocity rounds so that his bullets would have more time to expand in the animal.Coincidently ,the bullet in question was a partition.When I pointed out the fact that since the animal was never found,he could not be sure of the bullet placement,he would not accept that he might not have placed the bullet properly.
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  #52  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:24 AM
wind drift wind drift is offline
 
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I definitely agree the .243 was a compromise by design, however, today's broader bullet selection makes it less so.

Talking about compromises, a buddy of mine loads up a few 130 gr .270 loads with the bullets seated backwards to use on coyotes if an opportunity presents itself while deer hunting. The backwards bullet acts like a solid and punches a neat hole through and through with minimal hide damage. Along that vein, any of our common big game cartridges could function reasonably well as varmint loads if they were loaded with solid/full metal jacket bullets. I imagine the damage from a 150 grain FMJ through the ribs of a yodel-dog would be easy to sew up. Anybody like to use solids in their deer rifles to shoot coyotes?
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  #53  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:28 AM
wind drift wind drift is offline
 
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"When I pointed out the fact that since the animal was never found,he could not be sure of the bullet placement,he would not accept that he might not have placed the bullet properly".

Bang on, stubblejumper. I think bullets get the bad rap too often, when the Nut-Behind-the-Bolt caused the problem by making a poor shot. Been guilty of that myself.
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  #54  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:49 AM
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Bobby B. Bobby B. is offline
 
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From what I recall, solids do not kill well. They punch through without disrupting organic material as will an expanding bullet. For this same reason, hollowpoint .22 rimfire bullets kill gophers much better than solids.

If you're a serious coyote hunter, you should have a serious coyote rifle. Don't buy a 'double duty' rifle, it's a compromise and, as such, is not the best choice for a specific purpose.

Bobby B.

Last edited by Bobby B.; 12-02-2007 at 02:27 PM.
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  #55  
Old 12-02-2007, 11:21 AM
wind drift wind drift is offline
 
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Can't argue with that.
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  #56  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:11 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby B. View Post

If you're a serious coyote hunter, you should have a serious coyote rifle. Don't buy a 'double duty' rifle, it's a compromise and, as such, is not the best choice for a specific purpose.

Bobby B.
I like it.

Yeah...2 rifles. One for coyotes and one for anything bigger.

For the guy who wants to see impacts in scope good....and have a .22-250 trajectory?...the .204 ruger is your cartridge. I watch impacts in scope in ultra lite cz-american with a long harris swivel bi-pod attached which adds just enough weight to watch impacts right up to 9x on scope...even better when on low power. And that gun is tiny. Any standard weight .204 is awesome for watching impacts...the tikka varmint i had was a dream to shoot...light for a varmint at 8 lbs naked but perfect for holding down the .204 like it was almost a rimfire....super fun spotting your own hits on random dirt piles etc. out to 600 yrds! Puts the fun into shooting forsure.

I love my cz-american in .204, does a little over 4000 fps with factory 32 gr v-max and shoots 3/4 moa in my hand for 5 shots pretty routine....amazing trigger, perfect size/weight for a calling gun, detach mag (in and out of truck 10 times a day...its nice)...5 rounds in detach mag (comes in handy on some sets), watch impacts in scope...if thats not the perfect 'coyote calling' gun and cartridge then i dunno what is?....would prefer it in synthetic stainless and a smoother action but perfection isn't fun...the little gun has character.

I tried the tikka varmint in.204 after the cz-american...the tikka got sold. The little cz is a better calling gun imo...way faster handling when dogs in close...way nicer carry....the tikka was a 'perfect gun' really, smooth, 1/2 moa with factory ammo in my hands with 5 shots....but even though not as heavy as the american varmint rigs...still too heavy for a calling gun for my tastes. We might talk if they chamber in .204 for the t3 lite however...especially with the camo/stainless version...buy the 5 round mag and it might out do the cz for the ultimate calling gun.

As far as the deer gun...hard to beat a tikka again...love my .270 lam/ss. I'm going to kill some coyotes with it forsure and take it for wolves too...but for straight coyote days i like the little calibers most.

If that doesn't confuse you anymore.

Good luck.
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  #57  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:37 PM
bignose bignose is offline
 
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Default also thinking about a new rifle

Been thinking about a replacement for my Parker Hale Midland 30.06. I got it three and a bit years ago, used (of course) and not in bad condition. It's been ok for me, taken a couple of deer (one shot each).

Want something a bit more manageable (lighter weight, less recoil). Been thinking about .243 or 25.06, and after reading much of the above, and getting other good advice, I'm leaning toward the 25.06.

Couple of questions. I'm thinking of getting a Tikka (looked at them in P&D and like the look and feel, also like Finnish products, and Tikka less $ than Sako). See from above some good comments from Tikka owners - but need to ask - any problems with them?

Also, for the 25.06 guys out there, what do you shoot for deer, bullet-wise?

B
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  #58  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Also, for the 25.06 guys out there, what do you shoot for deer, bullet-wise?
My hunting partner uses the 110gr accubond in his 25-06 tikka t-3.It works very well on deer and coyotes.
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  #59  
Old 12-02-2007, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bignose View Post
Been thinking about a replacement for my Parker Hale Midland 30.06. I got it three and a bit years ago, used (of course) and not in bad condition. It's been ok for me, taken a couple of deer (one shot each).

Want something a bit more manageable (lighter weight, less recoil). Been thinking about .243 or 25.06, and after reading much of the above, and getting other good advice, I'm leaning toward the 25.06.

Couple of questions. I'm thinking of getting a Tikka (looked at them in P&D and like the look and feel, also like Finnish products, and Tikka less $ than Sako). See from above some good comments from Tikka owners - but need to ask - any problems with them?

Also, for the 25.06 guys out there, what do you shoot for deer, bullet-wise?

B
I've been trying to find something wrong with the Tikkas as they seem too good for the money but the only issue I've heard with some of them is having difficulty closing the bolt with factory ammo. Not sure if it's a head space issue or what but they do seem to be great value for the money.

I've been shooting Federal Premium ammo with 117 grain Trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullets but they've stopped offering this bullet. I'd stick with something in the 110-117 grain range for deer. I'll likely go to the accubonds as well.
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  #60  
Old 12-02-2007, 09:46 PM
Mintaka Mintaka is offline
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