The Myth of Energy Transfer

[827rotax]

Originally Posted by duceman

i've whacked a pile of critters, from mice with pellet guns to moose with centerfire. the only bang-flops i've had or seen, have came from critters hit in the spine or head. period.
i've had some travel less than others, but the only ones that drop on the spot are the ones that CAN'T, due to cns disruption.
lee.

3 years ago I was walking up my favorite trail and there in the middle of it was the biggest mulie I have ever seen, I got the draw that year and was ready to s$%t. I braced against a tree took a deep breath and let dads passed down 303 rip. He was standing head on to me with a little of the right hind showing, I was 60 yards best. Straight through the breast plate and out before the left rear quarter. Never touched the guts, but the heart and lungs were done, He never made a step and folded right there never kicked never moved. and i never touched the cns.It can happen. biggest dear I ever shot, grossed out almost 220"
Cheers and thank you to all who posted in this thread, some very good reading in here.
Cheers

[Noah-Tall]

Seems to me, this thread has used a lot more bandwidth then the Basspro thread. Which got locked because it was using to much bandwidth. There are about 7 relevent posts here, the rest are chest thumping, I know best replies.
Seems kind of odd???

[Tracker34]

Originally Posted by gunner72

This actualy reminds me of a hunt I was on two years ago in 400. We called in a 5 piont bull elk up out of a drianage and he came out of the bush about 70 yards away and my buddy shot him twice broad side in the center of the shoulder with a 308 loaded with some rem corelock factory ammo and droped him on the second shot. When we knocked the guts out of him there was no blood in the chest cavity at all. When we skined him out at camp we saw that the two shots were about 4 inches apart(the width of my hand) and dead center of the shoulder blade(a good 6" below the spine). The shoulder was broken but there's no way that bull blead to death. I never seen this before in fact i excpected to find a lung shoot when we were gutting him. I think that those core locks opened up to fast and just pounded him in the ribs hard enough that it killed him. Must sound like i'm right out of er here but what else could have killed him?

I had a similar experience. I had shot a spike buck with my 32 special a while back. He was a little more than quartering away with his head down. Shooting down hill. The 170 gr flat nose hit just behind the last rib, travelled up the body cavity and lodge in the hide about half way up it's neck. When I dressed it out, there was no blood or visible damage to the internal organs and hit no bone. The deer dropped instantly and didn't move. What killed it? Not blood loss. I think that dumping every ounce of that bullets energy into the deers body was enough to kill it.

[Arn?Narn.]

I shot at a deer once,...clean miss. But it was so close, that the energy from the bullet exploded the deers heart... he was DRT !

Originally Posted by Tracker34

I had a similar experience. I had shot a spike buck with my 32 special a while back. He was a little more than quartering away with his head down. Shooting down hill. The 170 gr flat nose hit just behind the last rib, travelled up the body cavity and lodge in the hide about half way up it's neck. When I dressed it out, there was no blood or visible damage to the internal organs and hit no bone. The deer dropped instantly and didn't move. What killed it? Not blood loss. I think that dumping every ounce of that bullets energy into the deers body was enough to kill it.

Pretty hard for a bullet to travel that distance without putting a hole in the diaphragm or lungs....both of which could easily be fatal. I'd believe that long before believing that it was "shocked" to death. No doubt there may have been some hydrodynamic surge that interupted the nervous system but I think death could still easily be attributed to a hole.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Pretty hard for a bullet to travel that distance without putting a hole in the diaphragm or lungs....both of which could easily be fatal. I'd believe that long before believing that it was "shocked" to death. No doubt there may have been some hydrodynamic surge that interupted the nervous system but I think death could still easily be attributed to a hole.

Are you calling BS to his experience?

Who made you the definative hunting information authority?

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Are you calling BS to his experience?

Who made you the definative hunting information authority?

Nope, I totally believe him. Just offering a more plausible cause of death.

You asking for a reason or just trolling?

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Nope, I totally believe him. Just offering a more plausible cause of death.

You asking for a reason or just trolling?

"I'd believe that long before believing that it was "shocked" to death"

Didnt really sound like you believed him. Sorry, I was just clarifying.

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

"I'd believe that long before believing that it was "shocked" to death"

Didnt really sound like you believed him. Sorry, I was just clarifying.

I was just passing along what I personally thought happened...I didn't want anyone to think I was the hunting information authority. It was just my personal thoughts...you know, what I believe happened. I'm sure others believe other things happened. Glad I could clarify that for you..............

[BeerSlayer1]

a hole in the diaphragm or lungs....both of which could easily be fatal.

I don't think the hole in the diaphagm would contribute very much to something's death, otherwise we'd have a bunch of old geezers dropping dead from hernias and such.

[aulrich]

One time while hunting I had to relive myself and at the sight of my hairy rear end an entire quarter section of gophers jumped into the air and exploded.

Shocked to death indeed.

Originally Posted by BeerSlayer1

I don't think the hole in the diaphagm would contribute very much to something's death, otherwise we'd have a bunch of old geezers dropping dead from hernias and such.

Not necessarily. Put a hole in the diaphragm and another to the outside world and death is very possible. Surgeons have a name for it...... sucking chest wound. It's more appropriately known as a Pneumothorax. It can cause the lungs to collapse and be unable to reinflate. Add a hole in the lungs to that scenario and the prognosis would be very poor.

[Peaks]

does Sheephunter and a few others on here actually talk DOWN to some ??..I come here to learn and if thats gives anybody a power trip so be it.Sheep u seem to know alot< but why dont u make this a great site and answer without the sarcasim ..just asking

[leo]

Originally Posted by aulrich

One time while hunting I had to relive myself and at the sight of my hairy rear end an entire quarter section of gophers jumped into the air and exploded.

Shocked to death indeed.

LMFAO. In the words made famous by RED RANGER 15 " I LIKE BEER ". Okay what next ?

[Noah-Tall]

Originally Posted by Peaks

does Sheephunter and a few others on here actually talk DOWN to some ??..I come here to learn and if thats gives anybody a power trip so be it.Sheep u seem to know alot< but why dont u make this a great site and answer without the sarcasim ..just asking

I kinda agree peaks. Since I joined and read a bunch of threads. It seems there are a few on here that wouldn't be talking the way they do if they were across a bar table from each other. Like my other post that doesn't contribute to this 8 page thread (most of the posts don't). Just a bunch of chest thumpers.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Not necessarily. Put a hole in the diaphragm and another to the outside world and death is very possible. Surgeons have a name for it...... sucking chest wound. It's more appropriately known as a Pneumothorax. It can cause the lungs to collapse and be unable to reinflate. Add a hole in the lungs to that scenario and the prognosis would be very poor.

Reread the post, he mentioned the deer dropping and dying instantly. Your theory sounds to me like it may take a while.

Originally Posted by Peaks

does Sheephunter and a few others on here actually talk DOWN to some ??..I come here to learn and if thats gives anybody a power trip so be it.Sheep u seem to know alot< but why dont u make this a great site and answer without the sarcasim ..just asking

Sarcasim begets sarcasim........Ask a question without it and I'll answer without it.

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Reread the post, he mentioned the deer dropping and dying instantly. Your theory sounds to me like it may take a while.

Hydrodynamic pulse or even the bullet striking nerves could easily explain the dropping instantly as the bullet landed in the neck. A deer lying there motionless could indeed look like it died instantly but it may have taken several seconds, the time taken to walk to the downed deer. It died instantly is a common phrase used by hunters but it's rarely case.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Hydrodynamic pulse or even the bullet striking nerves could easily explain the dropping instantly as the bullet landed in the neck. A deer lying there motionless could indeed look like it died instantly but it may have taken several seconds, the time taken to walk to the downed deer. It died instantly is a common phrase used by hunters but it's rarely case.

[TreeGuy]

Well, after reading all eight pages, I must conclude......

Holes cause death, not energy transfer. My three blade 100gr Thunderhead kills stuff just as dead as any centerfire out there applying far less energy. Why? The surface area of my wound channel is huge. My mulie this year was shot through the heart, stumbled 15 yards and was dead within 20 seconds. To paraphrase a certain politician, 'It's the HOLE stupid!'.

[Noah-Tall]

Originally Posted by TreeGuy

Well, after reading all eight pages, I must conclude......

Holes cause death, not energy transfer. My three blade 100gr Thunderhead kills stuff just as dead as any centerfire out there applying far less energy. Why? The surface area of my wound channel is huge. My mulie this year was shot through the heart, stumbled 15 yards and was dead within 20 seconds. To paraphrase a certain politician, 'It's the HOLE stupid!'.

I'll have to politely disagree. You need energy to get the arrow to the animal. And then you need more energy to get the arrow to penetrate, which is a transfer of energy. I would doubt that your arrow would kill as good as a centerfire if your quarry was 400 yards away. Unless you had enough energy to get the arrow to the target and penetrate. Holes kill, but you need the energy to make the hole.
So, after 8 pages of nonsense, you need both to kill an animal.

Originally Posted by Noah-Tall

I'll have to politely disagree. You need energy to get the arrow to the animal. And then you need more energy to get the arrow to penetrate, which is a transfer of energy. I would doubt that your arrow would kill as good as a centerfire if your quarry was 400 yards away. Unless you had enough energy to get the arrow to the target and penetrate. Holes kill, but you need the energy to make the hole.
So, after 8 pages of nonsense, you need both to kill an animal.

Not sure I'd call it 8 pages of nonsense. There has been a lot of great info shared here and some great links to pertinent studies. Other than a few looking to create drama, most posters have stuck to the subject from what I've seen. I know I've learned a lot. You make a good point about energy delivering the projectile so it that vein, energy does aid in the kill but I'd say that's typically where it ends. Talk of hydrostatic shock shock and such is little more than myth.

I must say you sound a lot like our old buddy sniper but hopefully you prove me wrong but I doubt it. It's sad that some posters come to this site just to cause chaos and then keep crawling back despite being banned several times over........I guess soap operas on TV aren't enough for some. Clever play on words for your name though. Think you've had a couple similar, however.

[super7mag]

So Partition or Accubond, hehehe I thought this was all pondered on a month ago.Energy + holes+vitals = venison.

[TreeGuy]

Yeah, ^^^^^, what he said!

Obviously it's the energy that gets the projectile there and the penetration and performance of said projectile. However, at the end of the day, it is the hole that kills. Be is huge KE from a .458, or releatively tiny with a 40# bow, dead is dead.

[switchsl]

My bbq transfered roughly 30 000 joules of energy at 90% efficiency tonight. Beer causes remote wounding and apparent hemoraging in my brain by morning.... The missus sends a shockwave through my system everytime I sit here to satisfy my curiousity and read whats next. Can we stop arguing and bring cold beer and steak to my house, my fridge is empty, or better sheeps place... I hate doing dishes. All who attend can have thumping on the chest from palpitations due to the spicey home made sausage.
Plenty of good info on this thread if you sort through it from many posters, personally I would like to sit with friends while we double our vision and double our knowledge. Cheers, to everybody.

Originally Posted by switchsl

My bbq transfered roughly 30 000 joules of energy at 90% efficiency tonight. Beer causes remote wounding and apparent hemoraging in my brain by morning.... The missus sends a shockwave through my system everytime I sit here to satisfy my curiousity and read whats next. Can we stop arguing and bring cold beer and steak to my house, my fridge is empty, or better sheeps place... I hate doing dishes. All who attend can have thumping on the chest from palpitations due to the spicey home made sausage.
Plenty of good info on this thread if you sort through it from many posters, personally I would like to sit with friends while we double our vision and double our knowledge. Cheers, to everybody.

[Tracker34]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Pretty hard for a bullet to travel that distance without putting a hole in the diaphragm or lungs....both of which could easily be fatal. I'd believe that long before believing that it was "shocked" to death. No doubt there may have been some hydrodynamic surge that interupted the nervous system but I think death could still easily be attributed to a hole.

Yes. The bullet did go through the diaphram.
Whatever made it die instantly... It was a good meat.

Originally Posted by Tracker34

Yes. The bullet did go through the diaphram.
Whatever made it die instantly... It was a good meat.

Well, there is no doubt that there is the very rare case where hydrodynamic pulse does kill by stopping the heart. This may have been one of those cases. It's extremely rare but it does happen.

[foothillsman]

Something else to consider. As a kid I grew up in a rather rough neighbourhood. Got into fights all the time. Ever notice that when you are unable to block an incoming fist to the midsection that sometimes you can live with the consequence and continue and sometimes it's game over?

I wonder, when a bullet penetrates the body can the shock from the energy tranfer have a similar effect as my recieving a punch to the kidney. I don't think that the transfer of energy kills immediately inmost cases, however, in rare instances it does. I think that it can incapacitate the animal. Death usually occurs due to blood loss or the destruction of vital nerves. That is what I understand so far.

Good topic!

[Gulo gulo]

I must admit I have always been a big “energy kills” fan, but after reading this thread with an open mind, I may have to change the way I think. I shoot a 7mm Rem Mag with 160 NP loaded hot, this combo on deer sized game leaves big exit holes. I have killed many deer with this load that were hit very poorly; some I am still not sure how they died. I feel that if those poor shots were made with a gun that didn’t have the power to leave those big holes I would have lost those deer. Large exist holes (IMHO) should not just be attributed to a larger caliber; you need a combination of bullet construction, velocity and bullet weight to achieve this. Even though I am still a little confused as to ‘how much’ energy plays a role in killing I think I understand it more than before I read this thread. That being said, I think that nobody knows all the answers yet, as there are so many variables to contend with.

Sheephunter,
I have thinking about getting a 270wsm for sheep hunting. On the episode where you and your hunting partner killed a bunch of mulie does, with I believe 140 accubonds, how were the exit holes (if any) at the different ranges?