6.5 cm vs 300 win mag

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Do you mean the Nosler will have a higher rate of expansion, causing it to slow faster, resulting in a slightly lower rate of penetration percentage wise? Like the Nosler is say 25% faster, and because of this will cause the bullet to expand more rapidly and physically, creating a larger frontal area and in turn slowing its rate of penetration faster than the slower moving bullet? I have no clue, I’m just throwing my line of thinking out there.

If you double the velocity, the resistance increases something like four or five times.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Do you mean the Nosler will have a higher rate of expansion, causing it to slow faster, resulting in a slightly lower rate of penetration percentage wise? Like the Nosler is say 25% faster, and because of this will cause the bullet to expand more rapidly and physically, creating a larger frontal area and in turn slowing its rate of penetration faster than the slower moving bullet? I have no clue, I’m just throwing my line of thinking out there.

Yes sorry I had that backwards. But I imagine it can only expand so much and the frontal area is relatively consistent.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Yes sorry I had that backwards. But I imagine it can only expand so much and the frontal area is relatively consistent.

As I posted, the expansion can be so extreme, that the petals are folded flush against the shank, or they can break off, resulting in less frontal area with more impact velocity. I have used the TTSX which was the bullet Kurt specified, for many years, and both of these situations have occurred. That is why there is no way to provide an accurate answer to the question.

[Jeron Kahyar]

You all have it wrong penetration is definately based on calories. More calories a bullet leaves the gun with the more it has to input into the target. This results in deeper penetration. This is how a bullet kills, the overwhelming rapid injection of calories disrupts the body's function resulting in death.

6.5mm Ceedmore (142gr ELD-X) has 750 calories at the muzzle while the 300 win mag (200gr ELD-X) has 1168 calories at the muzzle. I think this explains Wich one is more effective!

[AndrewM]

Here is a simple read:
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady...nal-ballistics

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

So if I take a 45-70 and shoot a dead boar in the face I can expect that boar to move over a foot back? Wow, that almost sounds unbelievable

Unbelievable,,,,,

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Unbelievable,,,,,

Funny..... that’s exactly what I was thinking.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Funny..... that’s exactly what I was thinking.

I know right,,,just like all you guys digging into a thread that claims a 6.5 is equal to a 300 wm, Since I had such a gullible crowd I shoulda went for 2 feet, right huh

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

I know right,,,just like all you guys digging into a thread that claims a 6.5 is equal to a 300 wm, Since I had such a gullible crowd I shoulda went for 2 feet, right huh

All us guys digging into a thread that claims a 6.5 is equal to a 300 wm in what regards? And who said it was equal, just to be clear?

Do you read what you want to hear or what’s actually written? I try to be as clear as possible when I write something down, I don’t recall ever saying a 6.5 (I assume you’re referring to Creedmoor) is equal to a 300 wm. If I did I sure would like for you to show me where.

I think the problem you’re having is the gullible crowd you’re speaking to is not as gullible as you’d hope, and a bit smarter than you thought.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

All us guys digging into a thread that claims a 6.5 is equal to a 300 wm in what regards? And who said it was equal, just to be clear?

Do you read what you want to hear or what’s actually written? I try to be as clear as possible when I write something down, I don’t recall ever saying a 6.5 (I assume you’re referring to Creedmoor) is equal to a 300 wm. If I did I sure would like for you to show me where.

I think the problem you’re having is the gullible crowd you’re speaking to is not as gullible as you’d hope, and a bit smarter than you thought.

Did you read the ops first post or any of the first 3 pages

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Did you read the ops first post or any of the first 3 pages

Ya, I read where one guy said a 147gr 6.5 and a 200gr 300 have the same sd and penetration, far cry from a bunch of guys claiming a 6.5 and a 300 wm are equal though. That seems to be where a lot of the arguement comes from, painting with a broad brush.

I do however find it easier to believe a 6.5 will penetrate the same as a 300 wm than a boar sliding 2 feet backwards from a bullet stuck in the hide, lol.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Ya, I read where one guy said a 147gr 6.5 and a 200gr 300 have the same sd and penetration, far cry from a bunch of guys claiming a 6.5 and a 300 wm are equal though. That seems to be where a lot of the arguement comes from, painting with a broad brush.

I do however find it easier to believe a 6.5 will penetrate the same as a 300 wm than a boar sliding 2 feet backwards from a bullet stuck in the hide, lol.

How bout three feet then,

[41thunder]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Here is a simple read:
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady...nal-ballistics

Lots of good info on here
Should put these discussions to rest

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

3 feet?

That I could beleive.

[Norwest Alta]

Shot a beaver once with one of those has 300 mag cannons and the beaver went 2' vertical.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

That I could beleive.

Ya see thats my problem, i shudda started at 3 and all woulda been
good

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Here is a simple read:
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady...nal-ballistics

Excellent read, very accurate, hornady has it right.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Shot a beaver once with one of those has 300 mag cannons and the beaver went 2' vertical.

From the water!!!!!! Lol

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

From the water!!!!!! Lol

Honest no bull****

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by shorty

I bet the 300 carries way more energy all the way and will buck the wind better

The 6.5 had 1.1” less wind drift at 500 yards than the 300 wm. The 300wm held 2000 fps to 675 and creedmoor to 650, the creedmoor held 1600 fps to 1100 yards and the 300wm to 1075 yards.

This isn’t the first time the creedmoor has been compared to the win mag. The creedmoor, for SOCOM, over the 308 win doubles hit probability at 1000m, with 1/3rd the wind drift. You need to step up to the win mag to hang with it.

Most would think you should compare the 6.5 PRC to the 300 win mag...magnum vs magnum right? Naw, the prc walks the win mag badly. Add 200-225 yards to those distances and 2.3” less wind drift at 500. Reasons guys are raving about these 147’s at 700-1100 yrd elk performance it doesn’t get down to 1600 fps until 1300 yrds. Exact same sd as 200 gr 300 win mag. Penetration simply isn’t an issue...for either. Recoil on the other hand...

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

The 6.5 had 1.1” less wind drift at 500 yards than the 300 wm. The 300wm held 2000 fps to 675 and creedmoor to 650, the creedmoor held 1600 fps to 1100 yards and the 300wm to 1075 yards.

This isn’t the first time the creedmoor has been compared to the win mag. The creedmoor, for SOCOM, over the 308 win doubles hit probability at 1000m, with 1/3rd the wind drift. You need to step up to the win mag to hang with it.

Most would think you should compare the 6.5 PRC to the 300 win mag...magnum vs magnum right? Naw, the prc walks the win mag badly. Add 200-225 yards to those distances and 2.3” less wind drift at 500. Reasons guys are raving about these 147’s at 700-1100 yrd elk performance it doesn’t get down to 1600 fps until 1300 yrds. Exact same sd as 200 gr 300 win mag. Penetration simply isn’t an issue...for either. Recoil on the other hand...

And it has about as many foot lbs as an old sling shot

[Rod in the sticks]

Shot a cow moose yesterday at Camp Wainwright with my 26 Nosler....I know its a fair bit bigger than the CM but that cow never made it 20 yards; had a hole the size of my fist in the ribcage.

In the end, comes down to shot placement.

Great way to start an argument though!!

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

And it has about as many foot lbs as an old sling shot

I keep forgetting how important ft/lbs are...🙏

And momentum. Nothing was learned by all that’s been killed in Africa then? You got 1100 elephants from Bell with 6.5 Mannlicher or 7x57 Mauser running high sd tough bullets at moderate velocities that could reach brain pans where 700 nitro express was basically chucking a baseball at them with 8000 ft/lbs and only knocking them out. How in tarnation does that happen? The logic here says the nitro with all that energy and momentum should have gone end to end through two elephants. Naw, they studied that all, Africa has been the testing and proving ground for more than a century. You need 3 things, bullet construction appropriate, impact velocity appropriate and sd appropriate. The do all king is the 375 h&h with 300 gr at .305 sd launched 2500+, from recollection they found impact velocity ranges preferred for dangerous game north of 2200...I believe it was 23-2400 fps with sd over .3 and appropriate construction...solids mostly. This combo was most effective regardless of energy or momentum. The little 6.5 Mannlicher and 7x57 was able to do it too. Not saying I recommend the smaller options for dangerous game, just saying the numbers show how it was done when apparently energy and momentum are so important. Facts are facts. Hit moose and elk in most places with appropriate construction(controlled expansion), sd above .25, impact velocities 2000 fps or better and you’re good to go. Big bears I’d be liking sd above .3, impact velocities north of 2200 and delayed controlled expansion...ymmv. Deer size critters you’re pretty safe with 1800 fps impact velocities, above .2 sd and controlled expansion bullets. Rules of thumb. Everyone may have a slightly different rule but these numbers are how best to choose or predict by, not energy or momentum, or even diameter.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Excellent read, very accurate, hornady has it right.

Of course they have. Why wouldn't they have it right. It's about energy transfer, you know.. that stuff that does the damage !
Hornady will be honored to know that they have your approval

For common big-game animals such as deer and elk, you want the controlled release of energy at impact to increase bullet penetration. By using a moderately fast-expanding bullet, more projectile energy is retained to transfer to the animal’s internal organs.

For even larger, more dangerous, big-game animals, you want bullets designed for even slower energy expenditure in order to achieve the deep penetration necessary to create permanent and temporary cavitation in the vital areas of large animals even after the bullet has broken bones along its path.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Ya see thats part of my problem, i shudda started at 3 and all woulda been
good

[41thunder]

https://journalofmountainhunting.com...e-300-win-mag/

Compares the 6.5x284 (6.5 prc) 140gr vld vs 300win 190gr vld. It’s possible to get the 215 Berger to 3000fps in most rifles. Prc probably wouldn’t win. FYI 6.5 isn’t a very good caliber for bears

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by 41thunder

https://journalofmountainhunting.com...e-300-win-mag/

Compares the 6.5x284 (6.5 prc) 140gr vld vs 300win 190gr vld. It’s possible to get the 215 Berger to 3000fps in most rifles. Prc probably wouldn’t win. FYI 6.5 isn’t a very good caliber for bears

Ask Bell and some 1100 elephants he shot with a lot less than a 6.5 prc. You’re new yet so there’s a ton about the subject you’re going to find out about yet. Start with Africa research, where all limits and combos have been tested and learned about for more than a century. Energy and momentum are irrelevant numbers.

[41thunder]

Isn’t the minimum cal 375? It doesn’t seem to make sense

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Ask Bell and some 1100 elephants he shot with a lot less than a 6.5 prc. You’re new yet so there’s a ton about the subject you’re going to find out about yet. Start with Africa research, where all limits and combos have been tested and learned about for more than a century. Energy and momentum are irrelevant numbers.

Energy and momentum are irevellent? Did you read any of the documents? Where do you think the force to drive a bullet comes from? Fairies and pixie dust? Without energy you don’t have movement. Without a transfer of momentum you don’t have a dead animal. You have a miss.

[Jeron Kahyar]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Energy and momentum are irrelevant numbers.

This is where you look absolutely crazy. Are you honestly going to tell me that Energy has nothing to do with ballistic calculations?