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  #121  
Old 03-11-2017, 12:16 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by gitrdun View Post
Meaning that the 30 cal. bullets that have cleanly harvested game in the last 150 years were just kidding? The new bullet trend may be a hot item at Saks 5th Ave. NYC
Not saying they haven't or can't, I'm saying there are better options. Some find it hard to evolve, others embrace change. I think age might be a factor.
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  #122  
Old 03-11-2017, 07:32 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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A long bullet will have long pedals and open up wider, especially at high velocities. So a heavy for caliber bullet, with the right construction, will be long, have a high BC, and be designed to open wide on impact. It will have good penetration and leave a wide wound channel....... I think.
Exactly, the right construction to fully expand with the velocity remaining at impact. As well, the petals have to be thick enough not to just fold over or break off. Bullet design is far more important than bullet diameter. Once again, you need to burn more powder to drive that heavier bullet at that higher velocity you speak of, and that results in more recoil being produced.
The bottom line, is that just because one person is using a larger diameter bullet, does not guarantee that there will be a larger hole left in the animal as was previously posted.
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  #123  
Old 03-11-2017, 07:37 AM
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One must remember however that large caliber bullets benefits Tom advanced design as much as small caliber bullets .
Personally I don't see much difference as long as the bullet is put where it is supposed to go , be it from a 6.5 or a 30 .....
Cat
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  #124  
Old 03-11-2017, 07:54 AM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Exactly, the right construction to fully expand with the velocity remaining at impact. As well, the petals have to be thick enough not to just fold over or break off. Bullet design is far more important than bullet diameter. Once again, you need to burn more powder to drive that heavier bullet at that higher velocity you speak of, and that results in more recoil being produced.
The bottom line, is that just because one person is using a larger diameter bullet, does not guarantee that there will be a larger hole left in the animal as was previously posted.
What would be the effect on bullet expansion if you decreased the terminal velocity and increased the resistance ?
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  #125  
Old 03-11-2017, 07:57 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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I agree that old school 30 cal is a thing of the past. LOL

NOT.

https://youtu.be/QZqod5EJEm0

Seen this fellow a few years back laying down tracks of shot too shot placement in different USA states.

Pretty smooth operator of factory rifle less the Timmy trigger.

Don.
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  #126  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:00 AM
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What would be the effect on bullet expansion if you decreased the terminal velocity and increased the resistance ?
You mean like a hard cast .45 or .50 lead bullet coming out of the muzzle at about 1,400FPS?

They hit like A bloody freight train at 500 yards
Cat
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  #127  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:03 AM
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You mean like a hard cast .45 or .50 lead bullet coming out of the muzzle at about 1,400FPS?

They hit like A bloody freight train at 500 yards
Cat
Or a 55gr v-max?
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  #128  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:13 AM
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Or a 55gr v-max?
I don't think he is talking about that situation is he?
In the end it is all about balance regardless if the shot is made at 100 or 1,000
If a person can find the balance they want it's all good
Cat
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  #129  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:16 AM
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What would be the effect on bullet expansion if you decreased the terminal velocity and increased the resistance ?
Unless you are going to start genetically altering the game animals, to change their muscle and bone density, the resistance they provide can't really be altered.
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  #130  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Or a 55gr v-max?
Ok .. I'll play

Here is a scenario :

A very large animal has presented a shot opportunity at 175 yds.
Due to it's position and location, you determine that the best shot placement would be to take out the shoulder on the off side.

You have two rifles available. One is a 6.5 running a 140 gr. bullet.
The other is a .35 Whelen using a 250 gr bullet of exactly the same construction as the 6.5

Pick your winner.
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  #131  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
I don't think he is talking about that situation is he?
In the end it is all about balance regardless if the shot is made at 100 or 1,000
If a person can find the balance they want it's all good
Cat
It's impossible to answer a question when it's left to a broad spectrum.

This isn't about the 30cal not working, it's about bullet advancements and the ability of smaller calibers to have the knock down power a 30cal offers, only without the 30cal recoil.
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  #132  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Ok .. I'll play

Here is a scenario :

A very large animal has presented a shot opportunity at 175 yds.
Due to it's position and location, you determine that the best shot placement would be to take out the shoulder on the off side.

You have two rifles available. One is a 6.5 running a 140 gr. bullet.
The other is a .35 Whelen using a 250 gr bullet of exactly the same construction as the 6.5

Pick your winner.

6.5 through the lungs every time.

I took a bull moose at over 500yds with a 140gr bullet out of a 280rem and it never made it 10ft. One shot-dead.
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  #133  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
It's impossible to answer a question when it's left to a broad spectrum.

This isn't about the 30cal not working, it's about bullet advancements and the ability of smaller calibers to have the knock down power a 30cal offers, only without the 30cal recoil.

Ok .. then chose any bullet you want for the 6.5.
The .35 will be using an ancient Nosler Partion.
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  #134  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:43 AM
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Well Salavee I did take a shot as you describe. It was at a ranged 734 yds with my 300 RUM. Buck was quartered hard. Placed a 215 Berger at the last rib and exited center of off side shoulder. Deer never even blinked was DRT! Devastating performance. I will say there was lots of meat loss. I have never seen anything like it. The 215 Berger is a hammer.
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  #135  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Ok .. then chose any bullet you want for the 6.5.
The .35 will be using an ancient Nosler Partion.
What is it you're trying to do? If you're trying to create the ultimate situation for your pet cartridge and the worst case scinario for the cartridge you want to beat, what do you think is going to be the outcome?

Here is a more likely situation. You're watching a wheat field, a monster buck walks out at 350yds away. You pick up your 260rem with a 143gr ELDX, put the crosshairs on its chest, pull the trigger, watch it die.


It's that simple.
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  #136  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
It's impossible to answer a question when it's left to a broad spectrum.

This isn't about the 30cal not working, it's about bullet advancements and the ability of smaller calibers to have the knock down power a 30cal offers, only without the 30cal recoil.
I thought I did answer it , the answer is balance .
I shout s larger than .30 rifle and gave no issues killing with it at 700 yards but it does not recoil like a big case cartridge does .
I would not use a Barnes bullet in that situation however
Cat
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  #137  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
6.5 through the lungs every time.

I took a bull moose at over 500yds with a 140gr bullet out of a 280rem and it never made it 10ft. One shot-dead.
No fudging Kurt .. the animal has to drop on the spot. There are rulz on this one.
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  #138  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
What is it you're trying to do? If you're trying to create the ultimate situation for your pet cartridge and the worst case scinario for the cartridge you want to beat, what do you think is going to be the outcome?

Here is a more likely situation. You're watching a wheat field, a monster buck walks out at 350yds away. You pick up your 260rem with a 143gr ELDX, put the crosshairs on its chest, pull the trigger, watch it die.


It's that simple.
I can and have done the very same thing with a rifle chambered in .303 British and know of a couple last year that were shot with.308's at greater distances
There is no "perfect" bullet /cartridge combination out there , there are however lots that we can choose from.
Cat
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  #139  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:55 AM
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No takers ?
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  #140  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:04 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
No fudging Kurt .. the animal has to drop on the spot. There are rulz on this one.
As a rule, and it being my number one rule, I shoot to kill. If I can't hit a lung I won't take the shot, unless it's a follow up shot.

No matter what gun you have in your hands there is NO guarantee the animal will drop on the spot unless you hit it in the head or the spine.

I have never in my life aimed form an off side shoulder. If it was between me and the lungs, it was coincidence.

Fwiw, at 175yds I think both a 35 or a 6.5 bullet that is well constructed would be able to make that shot without a problem.

Good enough?


And I'd rather do it with a 6.5 with less recoil!
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  #141  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:11 AM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Unless you are going to start genetically altering the game animals, to change their muscle and bone density, the resistance they provide can't really be altered.
No genentic altering required. Just place a shot from thru a rib cage to a shoulder shot... would that make a difference to bullet resistance ?
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  #142  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
As a rule, and it being my number one rule, I shoot to kill. If I can't hit a lung I won't take the shot, unless it's a follow up shot.

No matter what gun you have in your hands there is NO guarantee the animal will drop on the spot unless you hit it in the head or the spine.

I have never in my life aimed form an off side shoulder. If it was between me and the lungs, it was coincidence.

Fwiw, at 175yds I think both a 35 or a 6.5 bullet that is well constructed would be able to make that shot without a problem.

Good enough?



And I'd rather do it with a 6.5 with less recoil!
Still no takers .. thought so.
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  #143  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:18 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Still no takers .. thought so.
What are you talking about?

What do you want me to take?

I said if I had to I'd use either with confidence, and prefer to use the 6.5 because it has less recoil. Soooo.....
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  #144  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:21 AM
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Fair enough .. you made a choice..
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  #145  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Ok .. I'll play

Here is a scenario :

A very large animal has presented a shot opportunity at 175 yds.
Due to it's position and location, you determine that the best shot placement would be to take out the shoulder on the off side.

You have two rifles available. One is a 6.5 running a 140 gr. bullet.
The other is a .35 Whelen using a 250 gr bullet of exactly the same construction as the 6.5

Pick your winner.
I don't carry a rifle for a specific situation , I carry it because I want to hunt with it .
If I un into a scenario where something might be " better" I don't fret about it if I am confident that I can make the kill with what I have in my hands .
Cat
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  #146  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:23 AM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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Next ?
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  #147  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:26 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Fair enough .. you made a choice..
I watched a guy drop a moose in its tracks, looked like it was hit with a sledge hammer at roughly the distance you described, maybe a bit farther, and he was using a 6.5, Nosler 26 to be precise. He was using factory 129gr Nosler accubonds.
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  #148  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:29 AM
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Next ?
A bull elk is in the middle of a field, you range it at 480yds, you have a 30-30 and a Nosler 28...... which gun do you use?
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  #149  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:33 AM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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That wasn't the question ..
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  #150  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:34 AM
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A bull elk is in the middle of a field, you range it at 480yds, you have a 30-30 and a Nosler 28...... which gun do you use?
Two completely different cartridges at different ends of the spectrum .
Just about as equal as saying the moose is moving through thick tangle at 30 feet And you have a 9-36x on the 10 pound Nosler or irons on the '94!
Cat
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