The story of two nephews - one named "Fixed-blade" the other named "Expandable"

[Artist]

Originally Posted by ant12hony

First off we have a thread like this http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=268692 and now we are back to arguing like cats and dogs I wish we all would quit! If the broad head that you have been using be it fixed or expendable is working for you keep using it!! don't worry what other people think because if it kills your deer it is a good broad head!!

Thanks Anthony

Hmmm... that link is definitely a different topic? (Someone lost a bow?)
...no worries though. No one's arguing here - just exchanging some info and experience. Arguing is in the political and religious threads

[ant12hony]

Well I know if us kids sounded like that we would be grounded!! but if its all good than go for it. It just sounded like fighting to me

Anthony

[Artist]

Originally Posted by ant12hony

Well I know if us kids sounded like that we would be grounded!! but if its all good than go for it. It just sounded like fighting to me

Anthony

Anthony -where's that other link? Now you got me curious!

[ant12hony]

about the lost bow??

[Artist]

Originally Posted by ant12hony

First off we have a thread like this http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=268692 and now we are back to arguing like cats and dogs I wish we all would quit! If the broad head that you have been using be it fixed or expendable is working for you keep using it!! don't worry what other people think because if it kills your deer it is a good broad head!!

Thanks Anthony

...you wrote here ^^ "we already have a thread like this" - like what? ... is there another thread on the fixed/mechanical topic?... if there is, I don't think the one you've posted above is it (unless my computer is doing funny things)

[ant12hony]

K long story short I was showing a contrast of what this thread is like compared to a thread a week or so ago! no I wasn't meaning there was another thread about broad heads. I was just trying to figer out why all you guys are messing over such a small thing but if its all good then I'll keep my mounth shut and learn what I can

Anthony

[Artist]

Originally Posted by ant12hony

K long story short I was showing a contrast of what this thread is like compared to a thread a week or so ago! no I wasn't meaning there was another thread about broad heads. I was just trying to figer out why all you guys are messing over such a small thing but if its all good then I'll keep my mounth shut and learn what I can

Anthony

Ahhh... gotcha!

[reddeerhunter]

Originally Posted by 3blade

This has little to do with fixed vs mechanical.

Two options:

A) the montec was not sharp, and did not cause bleeding. This can occur with any design, and is up to the operator to check.

B) the montec was fine but simply didn't cut any arteries. It is absolutely possible to shoot through both lungs and miss anything vital, the injured parts collapse and minor bleeding is stopped.

Deer blood is high in vitamin k and clots very quickly, so the external wound seals and the resulting pneumothorax is small enough not to slow it down significantly. Sure, higher cutting diameter improves chances of getting an artery, but it also increases chances of only getting one lung. It's hunting. Nothing is guaranteed.


the reason i refuse mechanical broadheads is the chance of a malfunction, in flight or in target. If they operate as designed, they kill just fine. I don't like "if's" and a mechanical malfunction is far more likely than the scenario in the op.

well said

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by 3blade

This has little to do with fixed vs mechanical.

Two options:

A) the montec was not sharp, and did not cause bleeding. This can occur with any design, and is up to the operator to check.

B) the montec was fine but simply didn't cut any arteries. It is absolutely possible to shoot through both lungs and miss anything vital, the injured parts collapse and minor bleeding is stopped.

Deer blood is high in vitamin k and clots very quickly, so the external wound seals and the resulting pneumothorax is small enough not to slow it down significantly. Sure, higher cutting diameter improves chances of getting an artery, but it also increases chances of only getting one lung. It's hunting. Nothing is guaranteed.

the reason i refuse mechanical broadheads is the chance of a malfunction, in flight or in target. If they operate as designed, they kill just fine. I don't like "if's" and a mechanical malfunction is far more likely than the scenario in the op.

OP stated that the Montec was a complete pass thru. How would a dull one cause less bleeding. If anything a dull one on a pass thru would cause more tearing damage and bleeding.

OP also stated at least 1 lung was hit by the Montec. 1 1/8 inch with 3 flaps having ability to collapse and heal on it own prior to bleeding out? That is not vitamin K, that is an act of God.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

OP stated that the Montec was a complete pass thru. How would a dull one cause less bleeding. If anything a dull one on a pass thru would cause more tearing damage and bleeding.

OP also stated at least 1 lung was hit by the Montec. 1 1/8 inch with 3 flaps having ability to collapse and heal on it own prior to bleeding out? That is not vitamin K, that is an act of God.

Nope. Torn arteries spasm and close, stopping blood flow. The torn edges also create a surface for platelet aggregation/clot formation. Cut arteries spasm far less effectively and death occurs before clot formation.

Also no. Damaged lung tissue can collapse, which then does two things to stop bleeding: 1) mechanical compression of blood vessels.
2) Lung blood vessels operate opposite compared to the rest of the body. If the blood oxygen levels are high, the vessels dilate. If blood oxygen levels drop, they constrict. Collapsed lung tissue would allow less gas exchange, therefore less oxygen, therefore blood vessel constriction and less bleeding. Once healed, the area will slowly reinflate and blood flow will return (although less due to scar tissue, it wouldn't likely make any operational difference to the animal)

[russ]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Nope. Torn arteries spasm and close, stopping blood flow. The torn edges also create a surface for platelet aggregation/clot formation. Cut arteries spasm far less effectively and death occurs before clot formation.

Also no. Damaged lung tissue can collapse, which then does two things to stop bleeding: 1) mechanical compression of blood vessels.
2) Lung blood vessels operate opposite compared to the rest of the body. If the blood oxygen levels are high, the vessels dilate. If blood oxygen levels drop, they constrict. Collapsed lung tissue would allow less gas exchange, therefore less oxygen, therefore blood vessel constriction and less bleeding. Once healed, the area will slowly reinflate and blood flow will return (although less due to scar tissue, it wouldn't likely make any operational difference to the animal)

So please tell us how a double lung shot won't kill a deer? I know for a FACT that a partially collapsed lung is severely limiting. Let alone 2 partially collapsed lungs, which is not even a plausible situation to begin with.

[Artist]

Originally Posted by russ

So please tell us how a double lung shot won't kill a deer? I know for a FACT that a partially collapsed lung is severely limiting. Let alone 2 partially collapsed lungs, which is not even a plausible situation to begin with.

Hey Russ...
This wasn't a "double-lung" shot (nowhere did it say that in the post either) - this was a single lung - and, the edge of the lung. That was one of the "head-scratchers" of this whole experience. If you have a look at the entry/exit wounds in the photos in the OP, you'll see how we too were scratching our heads wondering how that arrow zipped right through where it did without causing a whole lot more damage - especially given that the shot-placement looked to be good. Thanks for your input in the post - the collective accumulation of experience and expertise is how we all become better hunters!

[3blade]

Originally Posted by russ

So please tell us how a double lung shot won't kill a deer? I know for a FACT that a partially collapsed lung is severely limiting. Let alone 2 partially collapsed lungs, which is not even a plausible situation to begin with.

Ok. The lungs are not two balloons. They are divided into lobes, and further into lobules, segments and so on.

An arrow/broad head kills by causing bleeding. In the areas closest to the heart, the blood vessels are large and the blood pressure is high. Cut one of these, it's over. If you hit an area that does not have a high pressure blood supply, the deer may bleed out slowly and die eventually, or survive as I described above.

The collapse of lung tissue can be partial, and the deer remains fully functional (perhaps losing some endurance or top speed but not likely enough for you to catch it). Humans can survive on half of one lung. Deer are tougher. So you are wrong, it is plausible.

The other potential cause of death is a tension pneumothorax, where air is drawn into the space between the chest wall and the lungs and compresses the lungs and major blood vessels. This air can come from a hole in either the airways or the chest wall, but requires the formation of a "one way check-valve" that allows air into the chest cavity on inspiration but closes on exhalation. It happens, but is not something you can cause intentionally with a projectile.

[russ]

I haven't seen any expertise in this thread yet. Just a lot of excuses being made.

[Artist]

Originally Posted by russ

I haven't seen any expertise in this thread yet. Just a lot of excuses being made.

I guess we see what we wanna see.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by Artist

I guess we see what we wanna see.

Lol. Amen.

[Bonescreek]

Is there a question or a Answer to this post ?



Or simply something to talk about ?
Is there anything to be learned from the comments posted
above ?

[Artist]

Originally Posted by Bonescreek

Is there a question or a Answer to this post ?



Or simply something to talk about ?

The intent of this post was simply to share an experience along with some opinion, and then be open to learn and glean from any additional posts from others in this thread. That's generally what happens with any post in any thread - this is a discussion forum after all?

[Bonescreek]

I understand what it means if the exit hole is lame.
We all get it if you dont get a pass through, tracking becomes
much more harder.

We all know just the same, a well placed shot is what we want.

Regardless of the BHs we use.

Sometimes they jump or dive when we hit the release.

Sometimes things happen, out of our control.
We do the best we can with what we have.

It's the best we can do.

So what was your question ?

[Artist]

Originally Posted by Bonescreek

I understand what it means if the exit hole is lame.
We all get it if you dont get a pass through, tracking becomes
much more harder.

We all know just the same, a well placed shot is what we want.

Regardless of the BHs we use.

Sometimes they jump or dive when we hit the release.

Sometimes things happen, out of our control.
We do the best we can with what we have.

It's the best we can do.

So what was your question ?

Again.. "The intent of this post was simply to share an experience along with some opinion, and then be open to learn and glean from any additional posts from others in this thread. That's generally what happens with any post in any thread - this is a discussion forum after all?"

...not sure why there has to be a specific question?

[Bonescreek]

Simply wanted to find out if your selling a New BH or being real about
the weather it makes a difference in a clean kill or not.

Simply about being real.



Honesty goes along way around here.
Or not.

[Artist]

Originally Posted by Bonescreek

Simply wanted to find out if your selling a New BH or being real about
the weather it makes a difference in a clean kill or not.

Simply about being real.



Honesty goes along way around here.
Or not.

Lol... as I stated in an earlier post, I'm definitely not representing any particular broadhead

[Bonescreek]

So you agree it's the shot placement that is most important.
?




I agree.

That's all folks.
Brothers in arms.

[Artist]

Originally Posted by Bonescreek

So you agree it's the shot placement that is most important.
?




I agree.

That's all folks.
Brothers in arms.

Absolutely.

[russ]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Ok. The lungs are not two balloons. They are divided into lobes, and further into lobules, segments and so on.

An arrow/broad head kills by causing bleeding. In the areas closest to the heart, the blood vessels are large and the blood pressure is high. Cut one of these, it's over. If you hit an area that does not have a high pressure blood supply, the deer may bleed out slowly and die eventually, or survive as I described above.

The collapse of lung tissue can be partial, and the deer remains fully functional (perhaps losing some endurance or top speed but not likely enough for you to catch it). Humans can survive on half of one lung. Deer are tougher. So you are wrong, it is plausible.

The other potential cause of death is a tension pneumothorax, where air is drawn into the space between the chest wall and the lungs and compresses the lungs and major blood vessels. This air can come from a hole in either the airways or the chest wall, but requires the formation of a "one way check-valve" that allows air into the chest cavity on inspiration but closes on exhalation. It happens, but is not something you can cause intentionally with a projectile.

So you're saying that a deer can survive holes in both lungs and at least one chest wall. I would agree that this is possible, but I think that medical intervention would likely be required for a successful recovery.

Also, I find think it's curious that on a quartering away shot that the diaphragm wasn't interrupted in some manner. Which in itself will cause a partial lung collapse.

[HoytCRX32]

Originally Posted by ant12hony

First off we have a thread like this http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=268692 and now we are back to arguing like cats and dogs I wish we all would quit! If the broad head that you have been using be it fixed or expendable is working for you keep using it!! don't worry what other people think because if it kills your deer it is a good broad head!!

Thanks Anthony

Geez Ant, you're taking the fun out of it....taking endless debate out of a forum is like eating overcooked elk

[ant12hony]

Originally Posted by HoytCRX32

Geez Ant, you're taking the fun out of it....taking endless debate out of a forum is like eating overcooked elk

Right back at you man

I didn't catch on to the intentions of this thread at first that's all!

but if you want me to I could join in the discussion and be a real a?s

actually I have learned quit a lot from this thread! maybe it should be sticky??

Anthony

[Settle&release]

Well I know for a fact 1 1/8" slick tricks leave a massive hole. Looks like a a 12 gauge hole. Pretty good blood trail.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by russ

So you're saying that a deer can survive holes in both lungs and at least one chest wall. I would agree that this is possible, but I think that medical intervention would likely be required for a successful recovery.

Also, I find think it's curious that on a quartering away shot that the diaphragm wasn't interrupted in some manner. Which in itself will cause a partial lung collapse.

Yes. You can think what you want, you're still wrong. Humans survive this all the time (think stabbings to both sides of the chest) with no more intervention than a bandaid. Deer are biologically more resilient, and have hair so they don't need bandaids.

If the diaphragm was cut, the chances of death increase significantly due to the associated damage of abdominal organs...but it can be missed easily, even on a quartering shot.

[Z7Extreme]

I shot a nice bull moose this setember with a striker. Only a little bigger than a montec. The shot was a complete pass through both lungs. There was no blood trail not even a drop. So I agree that fixed blade doesnt produce much for a blood trail. But I didnt need one because the moose tipped over in less than 15 yards and was dead in under 30 seconds. With that being said and lookin at the photos provided, which to me show the montec would've clipped the entry side lung and went right through the exit side lung. Even if the entry side lung wasnt clipped the deer was running on 50% or less lung capacity. One tough deer! IMO it wouldnt have lived through the first time a coyote put a chase on let alone the winter. Good you got to finish the job. Thanks for sharing.