Guided Sheep Hunts for AB Residents?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Actually a few of them will take guys at the end of October when the NR season has ended. They are typically hunting park rams at that time and not rams available to their NR clients anyhow.

I guess I could see them doing this, picking off a few rams moving in for the rut.

[Justin.C]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

And how is paying an outfitter not paid hunting?

As a resident I see the difference between paying a landowner for private land access or paying someone to guide on crown land.

Good point. I have to agree with your comment

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

ONLY a Class S Outfitter may guide Residents for Trophy Bighorn Sheep.

Class T Outfitters may NOT guide Residents for Trophy Bighorn Sheep.

No one but a Class S Outfitter may charge for a guided Trophy Highorn Sheep hunt.

Providing a packing service is legal.

In reviewing the Wildlife Regulation, this is correct. Class S only.

A Class T guide (which a newb may be eligible to obtain?) can guide residents for any lawful game, except trophy sheep, wolf and coyote. Funny the regulation lumps sheep with wolf and coyote. WTF?

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Trophy Sheep hunting is under immense pressure from a group of influential biologists. The main concern of these people is that hunting selection of Big rams is changing the genetics in the herds. Their desire is to see a reduction in the number of rams harvested each year through a very limited draw system.

Outfitters have a much higher success rate than non-guided hunters.

Perhaps the Class S outfitters should no longer be allowed to guide Residents. This would likely help reduce ram harvest without the implemantation of a draw.

I think the Class S provision for guiding residents needs further discussion where any changes are proposed to resident sheep regulations (another topic, but important to note in that other thread).

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Considering the quotes below from this thread, several from outfitter/guides, there is a sound reason for concern here.

Yup. My bad. I looked into it after I opened my yap. Looks like APOS has their web all over this. Thanks for the clarification.

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Considering the quotes below from this thread, several from outfitter/guides, there is a sound reason for concern here.

So a licensed outfitter that doesn't have $100,000 invested into a NR tag guiding those evil none residents decides to take on clients that don't have horses etc is reason for concern?

Interesting.

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

And how is paying an outfitter not paid hunting?

As a resident I see the difference between paying a landowner for private land access or paying someone to guide on crown land.

Huh? If a guy wants to pay an outfitter to help him out so what? It's his business. What next you have to fix your own truck you can't have a lisenced mechanic fix it? What if this was elk hunting? I know guys that have hired outfitters to take them in the back country in search of trophy bulls.

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by Justin.C

ya that is a inertpertation. You better have a great lawyer as you can buy 5 horses and feed for that kind of money. I would not chance it as that is a grey area. Which outfitters like playing in our province. I am not implying you. Just funny how you are an outfitter.

Yea its kinda right along the lines of owning a landowner tag when you dont own land justin

[gunslinger]

If you have a friend or guy that will pack and take you into sheep country just hire him for a packer, and then just go hunting for sheep. Grey area call whatever you want. Your just two guys hunting sheep.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by Ryry4

Huh? If a guy wants to pay an outfitter to help him out so what? It's his business. What next you have to fix your own truck you can't have a lisenced mechanic fix it? What if this was elk hunting? I know guys that have hired outfitters to take them in the back country in search of trophy bulls.

We are on the same page, you have taken my comments out of context.

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

We are on the same page, you have taken my comments out of context.

Ok. Sometimes I get a little hot under the collar.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Ryry4

So a licensed outfitter that doesn't have $100,000 invested into a NR tag guiding those evil none residents decides to take on clients that don't have horses etc is reason for concern?

Interesting.

Sorry. I don't understand your question.

Taking a guess at what you are asking.

Of course there is a concern when people are guiding illegally.
Do you agree?





Thanks for looking into it Depopulator. I hope others will too.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by gunslinger

If you have a friend or guy that will pack and take you into sheep country just hire him for a packer, and then just go hunting for sheep. Grey area call whatever you want. Your just two guys hunting sheep.

You know.....attitudes of entitlement like this really pi$$ me off. Read WB's post above, it's NOT a grey area at all, totally black and white. Either get out there and do it yourself, make some REAL friends (who won't charge you $ to go hunting with them) who own horses, or pony up and pay a licensed outfitter, like the law states. "Your just two guys hunting sheep"....what a bunch of BS.

[top predator]

I know were two legal rams are and will take comics or hockey cards to draw a map on a piece of toilet paper....

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Sorry. I don't understand your question.

Taking a guess at what you are asking.

Of course there is a concern when people are guiding illegally.
Do you agree?





Thanks for looking into it Depopulator. I hope others will too.

You quoted me saying that the outfitters I know who will guide residents don't have non resident tags. What I'm saying is if a lisenced outfitter who doesn't have NR tags decides to guide a resident, so what? Are you saying that should be outlawed? If so feel free to buy me 5 horses, a wall tent, who'd stove etc. And I take it you will board and feed the horses while I'm not hunting with them.

And yes illegal guiding is a concern to me, I don't see how this applies to what I'm saying.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Ryry4

You quoted me saying that the outfitters I know who will guide residents don't have non resident tags. What I'm saying is if a lisenced outfitter who doesn't have NR tags decides to guide a resident, so what? Are you saying that should be outlawed? If so feel free to buy me 5 horses, a wall tent, who'd stove etc. And I take it you will board and feed the horses while I'm not hunting with them.

And yes illegal guiding is a concern to me, I don't see how this applies to what I'm saying.

You quote, post #8, expresses you know people who will illegally guide residents for Trophy Sheep.

Originally Posted by Ryry4

There are lots of places that don't have non-resident sheep hunting in Alberta. Also, most of the guys that I know that will do it don't have non-resident sheep permits.

So What? Illegal guiding is just that, illegal guiding. Whether performed by a licenced outfitter or guide, or a non licenced individual, it is still illegal.

Are you really concerned with illegal guiding? Or just when it suites you and some of the people you know. You can't have it both ways when it comes to the law.


Now if you want to talk about CHANGING the law, that is a different argument, to which I have already supplied one possible solution.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I'm rather surprised at the hardcore sheep hunters and outfitter/guides that do not know the law on this topic.


For discussion sake ( )

Trophy Sheep hunting is under immense pressure from a group of influential biologists. The main concern of these people is that hunting selection of Big rams is changing the genetics in the herds. Their desire is to see a reduction in the number of rams harvested each year through a very limited draw system.

Outfitters have a much higher success rate than non-guided hunters.

Perhaps the Class S outfitters should no longer be allowed to guide Residents. This would likely help reduce ram harvest without the implemantation of a draw.

I appreciate this post, it reveals some good info. I will not get into this argument, not because I don't have an opinion on how we should regulate ourselves, but if we continue to think of strategies to limit ourselves we will never address the true problem and as I have stated on the wolf control thread. If all sheep hunters both residents, non residents, outfitters and guides don't soon all get together on this issue we will not be hunting at all. Anyway, as long as we are sidetracked on this issue the numbers will continue to dwindle.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by gunslinger

Absolutly false Justin anybody can pay me for my guidon services no different than a bear hunt, yiu want to go sheep hunting let's go, we use all my equipment horses and yiu gimme 8000$ simple as that.I am simply a friend taking yiu sheep hunting

Originally Posted by gunslinger

Has nothing to do with me, pretend I'm the hunter and want yiu to take me to your sheep hunting spot except we use all your equipment, I pay you for your equipment and horse feed and so on not your guiding

Originally Posted by gunslinger

If you have a friend or guy that will pack and take you into sheep country just hire him for a packer, and then just go hunting for sheep. Grey area call whatever you want. Your just two guys hunting sheep.

that right there folks is the problem with guiding and outfitting in alberta. here is an outfitter that first doesnt really know the law.....and then goes on to call it a grey area. what im reading is "dont worry boys, we can break thg law because i already have a good story lined up."

tell ya what pat.....if you are so confident in what you say, do it and post the entire trip here on the forum. post full names and prices for us all to see and be sure to include details of how you are helping your new friend kill a sheep. well....i guess thats if you can find someone to give you 8k to go. given how long it took for you to kill a sheep and couldnt seem to do it without someone giving you a detailed map to find one, i dont see a long lineup forming, but maybe for 50 bucks someone would. i dont see the price being impportant to the trial, but just make sure you charge something.

please do this.....id love to see the outcome.

with attitudes like this its no effin wonder residents hate outfitters so much.

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

You quote, post #8, expresses you know people who will illegally guide residents for Trophy Sheep.








So What? Illegal guiding is just that, illegal guiding. Whether performed by a licenced outfitter or guide, or a non licenced individual, it is still illegal.

Are you really concerned with illegal guiding? Or just when it suites you and some of the people you know. You can't have it both ways when it comes to the law.


Now if you want to talk about CHANGING the law, that is a different argument, to which I have already supplied one possible solution.

So, a licensed outfitter guiding someone for sheep is illegal? Now is it illegal for an outfitter with hounds to take out a guy for cougars?

Either way this is just another side tracked thread putting another wedge between hunters. Good to see the in-fighting hasn't stopped. We're doing a good job of getting hunting shut down without any help from the anti-hunting groups.

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

that right there folks is the problem with guiding and outfitting in alberta. here is an outfitter that first doesnt really know the law.....and then goes on to call it a grey area. what im reading is "dont worry boys, we can break thg law because i already have a good story lined up."

tell ya what pat.....if you are so confident in what you say, do it and post the entire trip here on the forum. post full names and prices for us all to see and be sure to include details of how you are helping your new friend kill a sheep. well....i guess thats if you can find someone to give you 8k to go. given how long it took for you to kill a sheep and couldnt seem to do it without someone giving you a detailed map to find one, i dont see a long lineup forming, but maybe for 50 bucks someone would. i dont see the price being impportant to the trial, but just make sure you charge something.

please do this.....id love to see the outcome.

Lol your a classic dale, was waiting for your little input.....Especially after you know full well i went hunting with chad. A detailed map, it was my brother that found the ram i killed 3 days deep with horses with my wife.
. Go ahead there little buddy hammer away.
Tell me one law that is broke bambi before you spout off, Just keep trying your little games dale. You just keep getting better and better buddy.

Every single member on this board knows every single moment of my quest for a bighorn sheep. I dont have to hide anything. Theres a ton of sheep guides that will take you out around.
If you want to hire a packer to take you into sheep valley there is nothing wrong at all with that......Dale your a real winner man Its no wonder with posts like this people think your a idiot

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by Ryry4

So, a licensed outfitter guiding someone for sheep is illegal? Now is it illegal for an outfitter with hounds to take out a guy for cougars?

Nope and nope. Not in my books, anyway.

And I'm interested in both sometime soon. Just sayin'.

[ishootbambi]

read it again pat.....i told YOU to guide someone just like you said is legal to do.

as for you and your sheep hunting....tell the truth.....i offered to help you out next fall if you didnt get it done this year didnt i. the only difference is i didnt ask you for money. same as i got jasons cell number from him in case i saw a mule deer he might like. again, that was before you made an illegal offer heer to pay someone for it.

i NEVER said your sheep was suspect....just what you are proposing certainly is illegal. as i said, try it out and post it all here and see how it goes.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by gunslinger

Dale your a real winner man Its no wonder with posts like this people think your a idiot

quality tactic pat. cant make a logical argument so here comes the insults.

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

quality tactic pat. cant make a logical argument so here comes the insults.

kill a ram without someone giving you a detailed map, AAHHHH you know what dale i aint getting into this, Sorry guys for derailing.

You wont see me posting anymore on anything, im done.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

tell the truth.....i offered to help you out next fall if you didnt get it done this year didnt i. the only difference is i didnt ask you for money. same as i got jasons cell number from him in case i saw a mule deer he might like. again, that was before you made an illegal offer heer to pay someone for it.

.

dont run away pat....i asked you a direct question......an answer would be nice....

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

dont run away pat....i asked you a direct question......an answer would be nice....

well....... did i offer to help out both of you or not? sheepslam knows the answer....maybe he could offer a response.....

[packhuntr]

WTF does an offer to help a guy with a sheep, or a mule deer have to do with anything? Are you trying to look important? If so, best believe you werent the only one looking for a mule deer, there were some pretty good hands out there in this province,, yourself, "Mr one hit wonder" not included. As far as this one goes, your looking for a response is useless. You live in the Hat, managed a ram in K Country off the hiway and think your a sheep hunter? Ya, if I was looking to fill a grand slam, you bet, I would be answering to you as well LOL. Now I dont want to get into it with you Bambi again, but lordy you are one crazy son of a bit$h,, a double post looking for an "answer" after sorting a guy out over what,, come on LOL!

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

WTF does an offer to help a guy with a sheep, or a mule deer have to do with anything? Are you trying to look important? If so, best believe you werent the only one looking for a mule deer, there were some pretty good hands out there in this province,, yourself, "Mr one hit wonder" not included. As far as this one goes, your looking for a response is useless. You live in the Hat, managed a ram in K Country off the hiway and think your a sheep hunter? Ya, if I was looking to fill a grand slam, you bet, I would be answering to you as well LOL Now I dont want to get into it with you Bambi again, but lordy you are one crazy son of a bit$h

about the only thing you got right was that i killed a ram and that expecting a response is useless. your memory might not be so good though....my ram came from the wilmore. to be honest, i was thinking of helping you out with where that happened.....


well ok, i might be a little crazy too.......depends on the day. it might be crazy to point out the illegal unethical ways of the beloved gunslinger on this forum. im sure ill get some hate mail for it, but it needed to be said. judging by the influx of mail already, it seems im not alone in this thought.

[houndsmen]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

well....... did i offer to help out both of you or not? sheepslam knows the answer....maybe he could offer a response.....

Leave it too you to turn this all around into looking for a pat on the back for your self! Your crap is so old!! PH hit it on the head, one hit wonder Internet big shot. So sick of you and your posse crying about outfitters, non- residents, and everything you "think" is illegal! Same crap every day!

To bad guys like Pat are constantly driven outta here over all you big shots!!

Originally Posted by Ryry4

So, a licensed outfitter guiding someone for sheep is illegal? Now is it illegal for an outfitter with hounds to take out a guy for cougars?

I think it depends on the type of licence...sheep requires a different one if I followed all this correctly.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Smoke

I appreciate this post, it reveals some good info. I will not get into this argument, not because I don't have an opinion on how we should regulate ourselves, but if we continue to think of strategies to limit ourselves we will never address the true problem and as I have stated on the wolf control thread. If all sheep hunters both residents, non residents, outfitters and guides don't soon all get together on this issue we will not be hunting at all. Anyway, as long as we are sidetracked on this issue the numbers will continue to dwindle.

I agree Smoke.

There is a difficult fight on right now to save General Licence Ram hunting in Alberta. Which is the reason I brought up the concept. F&W is listening very carefully to the researchers claims and recommendations, as well as watching this board. Ideas have to start somewhere.

It has been a couple of weeks of non-stop researching for me on this issue. gathering the info, arguments, and counterpoints.

Quite simply, F&W is prepared to implement very restrictive changes to Ram hunting, despite a lack of any conclusive problem.

Originally Posted by Ryry4

So, a licensed outfitter guiding someone for sheep is illegal? Now is it illegal for an outfitter with hounds to take out a guy for cougars?

Either way this is just another side tracked thread putting another wedge between hunters. Good to see the in-fighting hasn't stopped. We're doing a good job of getting hunting shut down without any help from the anti-hunting groups.

This is not difficult stuff Ryry4,

Only Class S Outfitters can be hired for Resisent Trophy Sheep hunting.

Class T Outfitters can NOT guide for Trophy sheep.


Yes, a licenced outfitter can be hired for guiding resident cougar hunts.




Apologies in advance to THELIVINGLEGEND.

Sometimes the only way to get the facts across is to cut and paste.

Wildlife Regulation, Alta Reg 143/1997

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlig...-143-1997.html

Class S outfitter-guide permit - entitlements

58(1) A Class S outfitter‑guide permit authorizes its holder

(1.1) A Class S outfitter‑guide permit also authorizes its holder to enter into a contract with a resident for the provision to that resident of guiding services respecting any lawful hunting by that resident of big game, wolf or coyote.


Class T outfitter-guide permit - entitlements

59(1) A Class T outfitter‑guide permit authorizes its holder

(2) A Class T outfitter‑guide permit also authorizes its holder to enter into a contract with a resident for the provision to that resident of guiding services respecting any lawful hunting by that resident of big game, except trophy sheep, wolf or coyote.

[GooseSlammer]

Originally Posted by top predator

I know were two legal rams are and will take comics or hockey cards to draw a map on a piece of toilet paper....

Good offer! Let me dig out the old hockey cards!

P.S. - Didn't mean to start a big battle on here... Just hoping to find a good ram with the limited time I've got to look for one...

Thanks for the initial tips guys and gals. Enjoy the debate!