The story of two nephews - one named "Fixed-blade" the other named "Expandable"

[Artist]

This season alone, I've had 3 cases described to me in which game was not recovered after what apparently were well-placed shots using fixed-blade broadheads (Montecs, Red-Feather etc.)

I have, for 98% of my archery hunts, shot expandables. I've always been convinced that expandables inherently carry larger entry/exit-wound capabilities, which, at the end of the day, is key to the retrieval of game.

Over the years, I've taken a bit "heat" for being an expandable shooter - being told things like...
a) Expandables are for guys who are too lazy to tune their bows.
b) Expandables malfunction.
c) Fixed-blades carry superior penetration capabilities.
...yada, yada, yada...

It seems over the past few years, some of the fixed-blade broadheads have gotten to be quite small - something that I've never been comfortable with. With claims of unbelievable penetration capabilities, (which is scientifically true), these little fixed-blades have sometimes (based on the penetration perspective) been exalted as "the only way to go" as though penetration is the end-all-be-all factor in a good clean kill. An experience I was part of last night, provided me with evidence that penetration isn't always everything, and that (at least some) of the fixed-blades, aren't without their limitations and draw-backs even though they report superior penetration.

Yesterday afternoon, my Nephew "Mr. Fixed-blade" shot a buck at 28yds with a fixed-3-blade Montec. With a quartering-away shot, his arrow-placement was, (at least as far as most archers would say), nearly perfect - just back (8") from the shoulder, mid-body. The arrow went clean through, exiting at the shoulder on the other side (see attached photos). Great shot! Amazing penetration!

The blood-trail was good - at first - but soon dried up ... to nothing. We searched on into the night - no buck. How could that buck have survived a shot like that?

This afternoon, another nephew of mine "Mr. Expandable" went hunting into the same area - and lo, what does he see?... that same buck, walking finely on all fours, and back in with the group of deer it had been with the previous day. Un-believable!

He puts a stalk on the buck, and arrows him with a Grim Reaper expandable. The shot is not a total pass-through, but the wound is indeed "grim" - the buck goes 50 yards, and expires. Upon inspection, it becomes apparent why the blood-trail dried up. The Montec wounds are closed - clotted - somewhat dried - the simple result of not having created a large-enough wound channel to produce a lasting blood-trail.

After this, I had one piece of advice for my nephew "Mr. Fixed-blade" - chuck them pee-wee Montecs in the garbage, and go get yourself some broadheads that'll actually open the deer up!

Again, the attached photos are of the entry/exit wounds from the Montec.
The evidence, I think, speaks for itself - mere penetration isn't everything.
I for one will stick with my expandable Grim Reapers thank you very much.
And oh, by the way, my bow is tuned just fine!

[ant12hony]

The thing is that not all of us youth can pull 60# so we have to use fixed blades... other wise there probable would be more expendables.

Anthony

[Artist]

Originally Posted by ant12hony

The thing is that not all of us youth can pull 60# so we have to use fixed blades... other wise there probable would be more expendables.

Anthony

That's a good point - an investigation into the minimum poundage requirements for various expandables would be worthwhile. Some likely require more/less poundage than others.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Grim Reaper strongly suggest 60KE for the 1-3/8 cut models and 65KE for the WhiteTail Special broad heads.

The calculation uses arrow Mass and speed, draw weight is not part of the calculation.

LC

[backyard]

Then find a fixed blade with I wide cut there are some out there and will need to be tuned to your bow.

[H380]

Originally Posted by ant12hony

The thing is that not all of us youth can pull 60# so we have to use fixed blades... other wise there probable would be more expendables.

Anthony

My apa set 58# sent a grimreaper thru my muley doe at 38 yds and arrow was 20 yds beyond and buried 6" in the dirt . I wasnt a believer in expandables at " lower poundage" either but have since changed my mind since seeing them work . However , not all expandables are created equal either , I know more fans of the grims than the rage .

[ant12hony]

ya but I consider myself to be a pretty strong 14yr and I only can pull 5o#!!

[RancheroMan]

I'm new to bow hunting so please help me understand the process here. I get that tracking a shot animal is much easier with a heavy blood trail. But how long would it take a deer to bleed out an die from an arrow shot (even with an expandable) that has not hit a major organ?

Is this not a story of an arrow shot that missed the heart/lungs/or liver?

[Artist]

Originally Posted by RancheroMan

Is this not a story of an arrow shot that missed the heart/lungs/or liver?

Nope - this is a story of a well-placed shot (lung-shot - see photos of shot placement), where the little broadhead involved simply did not cut a large enough wound channel to both kill the animal and create a blood-trail adequate enough to be able to track it. Think of it as similar to the buck having been shot with a field-point. Mere penetration in itself is not enough to be lethal.

[albertabighorn]

Originally Posted by ant12hony

ya but I consider myself to be a pretty strong 14yr and I only can pull 5o#!!

Heres a link to a KE calculator.

http://archerycalculator.com/archery...um-calculator/

[shakeyleg02]

Originally Posted by Artist

Nope - this is a story of a well-placed shot (lung-shot - see photos of shot placement), where the little broadhead involved simply did not cut a large enough wound channel to both kill the animal and create a blood-trail adequate enough to be able to track it. Think of it as similar to the buck having been shot with a field-point. Mere penetration in itself is not enough to be lethal.

So what you are saying is the montec went thru both lungs or even one lung and the deer was still walking the next day ..? I can see the blood trail drying up with the place of exit which can also happen with and expandable i put a spitfire thru a doe on a quartering shot with the exit being in the same area and entry hole was massive but exit not so much with the tissue in the shoulder area sealing the wound not much blood but watched her go down in sight
Rare case that if you took out 1 0r 2 lungs your buck would have expired within a short distance but stranger thngs have happened great you got to finish the job..congrats

[Artist]

Originally Posted by shakeyleg02

So what you are saying is the montec went thru both lungs or even one lung and the deer was still walking the next day ..?

Exactly!

[crownb]

This is hard to believe ^^^^^^

[albertabighorn]

Bigger cut=more damage, less chance of clotting. I would imagine that deer had a hemo and/or pneumothorax going on and would have eventually died a slow death.

[albertabighorn]

Where is the reaper entry? Also what is the cutting diameter of the reaper compared to the montec?

[Lefty-Canuck]

1-3/8 vs. 1 inch I think.

Bigger cut can also mean less penetration...

I find the 1-3/8 cut is the best of both worlds, cut diameter and penetration are more than adequate for quick kills.

Not a fan of 1 inch cut diameter broad heads....too small IMHO.

LC

[Alberta Bigbore]

An Un tuned bow/arrow and floppy flight with an expandable won't do u any better either.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by shakeyleg02

So what you are saying is the montec went thru both lungs or even one lung and the deer was still walking the next day ..? I can see the blood trail drying up with the place of exit which can also happen with and expandable i put a spitfire thru a doe on a quartering shot with the exit being in the same area and entry hole was massive but exit not so much with the tissue in the shoulder area sealing the wound not much blood but watched her go down in sight
Rare case that if you took out 1 0r 2 lungs your buck would have expired within a short distance but stranger thngs have happened great you got to finish the job..congrats

Originally Posted by Artist

Exactly!

Originally Posted by crownb

This is hard to believe ^^^^^^

Originally Posted by albertabighorn

Where is the reaper entry? Also what is the cutting diameter of the reaper compared to the montec?

I find this hard to believe also....................and where is the reaper entry/exit?

[HoytCRX32]

Originally Posted by albertabighorn

Where is the reaper entry? Also what is the cutting diameter of the reaper compared to the montec?

That's what I was wondering...all I see is the Montec entry/exit...no "massive" reaper wound

[cody j]

I would like to see a picture of the lungs with holes in them

[HoytCRX32]

Kinda wonder how the early indian groups killed anything with those silly tiny stone arrowheads (tongue planted firmly in cheek). I wonder how many deer are killed with a fixed blade where they don't go 100 yards...I would assume enough to keep G5, Muzzy and Wasp in business (to name a few)

[58thecat]

The more moving parts the higher rate of failure,

[NBFK]

Here's my take on it all that montec never hit anything fatal in and out. There's no way a buck is on his feet 24 hrs later with collapsed lungs. I've shot my fair share of game with both and I really like an expandable. But if you look in my quiver you usually find at least one big nasty fix blade for the right situation. Montecs are not my favourite but anything in the lungs is a dead animal. It seems most people blame non recovered game on equipment when really it was error on the pilot. Between me and 3 buddies we have 13 Animals down this year and all are expandable kills except one. I will confidently say they would all be dead with fixed blades too because of shot placement.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by NBFK

Here's my take on it all that montec never hit anything fatal in and out. There's no way a buck is on his feet 24 hrs later with collapsed lungs. I've shot my fair share of game with both and I really like an expandable. But if you look in my quiver you usually find at least one big nasty fix blade for the right situation. Montecs are not my favourite but anything in the lungs is a dead animal. It seems most people blame non recovered game on equipment when really it was error on the pilot. Between me and 3 buddies we have 13 Animals down this year and all are expandable kills except one. I will confidently say they would all be dead with fixed blades too because of shot placement.

Agreed, well placed shot, takes out both lungs = dead animal.

[albertabighorn]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

1-3/8 vs. 1 inch I think.

Bigger cut can also mean less penetration...

I find the 1-3/8 cut is the best of both worlds, cut diameter and penetration are more than adequate for quick kills.

Not a fan of 1 inch cut diameter broad heads....too small IMHO.

LC

Yeah I thought about mentioning that but with the KE of today's set ups it seems to become less & less of an issue.

[Artist]

Originally Posted by CNP

I find this hard to believe also....................and where is the reaper entry/exit?

Yup, I found it hard to believe as well.

Yes - with the Montec shot, the deer was on all fours and back with the group it had been with the previous day - believe it if you want to.

The Grim Reaper entered forward of the shoulder - that's why its entry wound doesn't show up in the photos in the original post.

But for all you doubting Thomas's, here ya go.

[albertabighorn]

Originally Posted by Artist

Yup, I found it hard to believe as well.

Yes - with the Montec shot, the deer was on all fours and back with the group it had been with the previous day - believe it if you want to.

The Grim Reaper entered forward of the shoulder - that's why its entry wound doesn't show up in the photos in the original post.

But for all you doubting Thomas's, here ya go.

Slightly quartered,front on shot?

[Artist]

Originally Posted by albertabighorn

Slightly quartered,front on shot?

The Grim Reaper shot was, yes. Not the greatest placement, but it did the job.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Artist

The Grim Reaper shot was, yes. Not the greatest placement, but it did the job.

On an animal that you know is already hit almost any additional shot will do!

LC

[trouty]

Originally Posted by Artist

Exactly!

Total bs, you missed anything vital.