Sheep Part 3

[Tonto]

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[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Jamie

BTW.. Sorry if you have gotten some PM's you dont like. Personaly I like to do my stuff in public.

I could care less about the PM's really but if guys wanna threaten me because I dont back their thoughts I can give them directions to Caroline!
SG

[Bathunter]

From what I have read so far Sheepguide,, I think there are a few on the way.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

No one has stated that there is a huge problem but when a guy see's places like 40 mile mountain and the mountain above harrison flats on the clearwater, the ridges in the hummingbird and canary creek, and open grassy hills above sick mans camp on the south ram , the hills behind the ranch buildings at the ya ha or the bluffs in Smith creek on the blackstone that used to hold winter populations of hundreds and are now almost void during the winter, it worries me. Maybe we are jumping the gun but to do nothing I dont beleive isnt right either.

And maybe more sheep hunters or hunters in general that say the big problem out there is wolves and predators should do their part and help control this, not just sit around and complain that the government wont do anything about it
SG

SG, I don't doubt the accuracy of your observations regarding these sheep herds. I'll say it again, our Alberta Government through ACA and SRD are experimenting with non-leathal wolf management. I've posted those links before. The National Parks have taken a 180 shift in their public campaign regarding exposing the wolf population in the park, they will not count them anymore! IMO, to do so would be to prove that they are out of balance with the prey species. Besides your sheep observations, Elk and moose populatons are dramatically dropping in many areas of the foothills and mountains, those numbers have been verified through recent game counts.

This isn't difficult for anyone to add up. Wolves ARE responsible for a large % of the ungulate mortality in these areas. Very likely the reason you are not seeing sheep in these areas anymore.

Instead of hunter management our gov. needs to first get back to wildlife management. Even the B.C. Gov. is ready to get serious regarding wolves. http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/2...s-at-wolf-kill

[albertaboy]

To me there are several issues in this post. Age structure of herd, what is a legal ram and what a trophy ram is. I believe The shooting of old rams hurts the herd more than shooting of a young immature ram. The older dominant rams lead the young ones to the different ranges. They know the migration routes and the young ones follow. working from memorys from Giest books.
The picture of the ram to me looks illegal but its a pic. Is the guy a native or a metis,when it was legal? Then 4/5 does not apply. Just questions and if the CO measured and corked it then its legal. Legality issues to me are easy, if the Co says so, then Ok.All Co's should be doing it the same, using the square in front of the horns.But if you shoot one that close you better be ready to face the concequences of your actions.
Now the personal part, what to you is a trophy, a squeaker to some is great. To others no damn way should it be legal. Its like a 130-140 whitetail some people mount them and are as happy as can be.Whoever pulls the trigger has to make that decesion. I think that sometimes people want the rules changed to make it easier to get a ram. But it can never be that easy to get one as some I have hunted with want. They want to go out for 1 week or less and come home with a ram. It just is not that way in my books and that is why to me any legal ram is a trophy. It takes weeks,months sometimes years to get a ram. you may not be able to spend that much time in one year but add the time up over years. Why do the rules need to be changed? Why wait 5 years between rams? If you spend long enough time in the mountains you will get a ram,of course you have to be in a good sheep area. Why is it neccessary to stop those hunters who spend months on a hill? If a guy wants to sit on the hot rocks for 2 months straight and shoot a legal ram every 2 years why not. We can all do that. But it our personal lives and other responibilities that prevent it. If a guy wants to shoot one every other year, go ahead. Its my own fault for not being there.And i do realize that there are X number of legal rams in the province and that it may not be fair to everyone that a small number of hunters take the majority of rams but if you where there at the time would you shoot the ram? If you would why cant he? My 2 cents worth.

[Hagar]

I agree that a change is coming and that we need to work together to come up with a program that would have the least effect on sheep hunters and yet have positive results for sheep.

It would seem that those opposed to any change are those who think only of them selves and have no regard for the future of sheep and sheep hunting.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Actually I do too. Just don't make it a mandatory course that will further regulate and burden hunters and cost taxpayers or hunters hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Well that part goes without saying.

Hagar, despite you attempt at a backhanded slap, I don't think anyone on this site is against change...it's just that the change needs to be for a reason. Explain why we need change and what we are trying to fix with that change and I'm sure you'll get all kinds of constructive suggestions. I'm all for change if it's required for management reasons but I'm not for change just for the sake of change.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

here is what i mean....and a look at how the square works if you have never seen it.

thankyou thankyou thankyou for posting that! is that square in the right position on the forehead there? the horn really go that far into the fur?

can others comment who've seen the square applied?, i have to go back to page 3 and catch up but i'm fired up about this pic....

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Hagar

I agree that a change is coming and that we need to work together to come up with a program that would have the least effect on sheep hunters and yet have positive results for sheep.

It would seem that those opposed to any change are those who think only of them selves and have no regard for the future of sheep and sheep hunting.

This all started when AWS wondered why we weren't growing as great of trophy potential as Montana. First the habitat, predator and climate differences make the answer obvious to me. Secondly it wasn't that there was a problem just that they wanted bigger rams. I'm not really sure that I'm comfortable with managing game for increased trophy potential. I like the thought that we manage the game for the health and well being of the whole herd and not just a select portion of it to please elite trophy hunters. If our herds support 4/5 curl ram hunt then I'm OK with that.

[Hagar]

I guess if having to spend a little time and extra money for you sheephunter then I guess we know which group of hunters you belong in.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

thankyou thankyou thankyou for posting that! is that square in the right position on the forehead there? the horn really go that far into the fur?

can others comment who've seen the square applied?, i have to go back to page 3 and catch up but i'm fired up about this pic....

On that ram yes. Rams like people are all different and there is a lot of jarful study that takes place before the trigger is pulled.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Hagar

I agree that a change is coming and that we need to work together to come up with a program that would have the least effect on sheep hunters and yet have positive results for sheep.

It would seem that those opposed to any change are those who think only of them selves and have no regard for the future of sheep and sheep hunting.

Why do you think we have a problem with Sheep!! it's known that the numbers are up and Sheep hunting has been working for how many years now without any problems even with the die off in the 80's in the south. Would it possibly be your groups agenda to come up with changes because your group hasn't seen that many Sheep at measuring day!! Here's a thought maybe Sheep are harder to hunt that some think. Why fix something that isn't broke.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Hagar

I guess if having to spend a little time and extra money for you sheephunter then I guess we know which group of hunters you belong in.

The unhappy face attitude really doesn't fit you. As you get older in life you'll realize that not everyone is going to agree with you or your ideas. Live with it, it isn't a character defect on the part of the disagreeing party.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Hagar

I agree that a change is coming and that we need to work together to come up with a program that would have the least effect on sheep hunters and yet have positive results for sheep.

It would seem that those opposed to any change are those who think only of them selves and have no regard for the future of sheep and sheep hunting.

I'm for change. Change the way wildlife and habitat are managed.

Manage for; balanced predator/prey populatons, protect and improve winter ranges, micro-manage specific concerns through proven methods - not experimental studies.

Change; Gov. and special interest groups closed door meetings, access to public information, reveal evidence relating to management concerns.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by 209x50

This all started when AWS wondered why we weren't growing as great of trophy potential as Montana. First the habitat, predator and climate differences make the answer obvious to me. Secondly it wasn't that there was a problem just that they wanted bigger rams. I'm not really sure that I'm comfortable with managing game for increased trophy potential. I like the thought that we manage the game for the health and well being of the whole herd and not just a select portion of it to please elite trophy hunters. If our herds support 4/5 curl ram hunt then I'm OK with that.

Maybe Montana got some of our Cadomin Rams with some good genetics!!

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I'm for change. Change the way wildlife and habitat are managed.

Manage for; balanced predator/prey populatons, protect and improve winter ranges, micro-manage specific concerns through proven methods - not experimental studies.

Change; Gov. and special interest groups closed door meetings, access to public information, reveal evidence relating to management concerns.

I'm all for that change too! Game management makes sense......hunter management should be a last resort.

Originally Posted by Hagar

I guess if having to spend a little time and extra money for you sheephunter then I guess we know which group of hunters you belong in.

Well so much for back-handed slaps.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Game management makes sense......hunter management should be a last resort.

This is a very true statement! But I think that the thing in these threads is that alot of guys know that there is a change comming to the hunter management part in the near future whether its the last step or not. Some guys were just trying to figure out the best way to acheive what they are aiming for with a minimal effect on hunters!! No one stated that this should be done before game management but as with most species such as elk and mule deer(L.E.H) hunter managment was the first step and the bad part is that it looks as if sheep will be handled the same.
It will be great if we can voice our opinions enough to change this so that game managment is front and center but it will be a tough go and it will need the help from every voice we have out there!!

[209x50]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I'm for change. Change the way wildlife and habitat are managed.

Manage for; balanced predator/prey populatons, protect and improve winter ranges, micro-manage specific concerns through proven methods - not experimental studies.

Change; Gov. and special interest groups closed door meetings, access to public information, reveal evidence relating to management concerns.

Yep count me in too. Hunter management is a cop out that doesn't do the game any favors down the road.

[Hagar]

ramcrazy I would like to know what group you think I am a part of and what agenda you think I have?Just because I am from the south doesn't mean I am a member of group.

I have never said there is any problem with the sheep herds,how ever someone does and they are pushing hard for change.I have heard rumors but but can not confirm or deny.I would hate to see any changes to the current system but feel changes are coming.

I think if we as hunters could do something to make an improvement with out having to change the regulations it would be better then having changes in the regulations to the way we hunt.What would be better,some mandatory education or changes in regulations?Which do you think would have the least effect on how we hunt?

[Rocks]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Talking about habitat brought out some interesting numbers. He said rams down south can be 4/5 curl at 3.5 years because of the milder winters and better range and in comparison the rams in my neck of the woods around Kakawa average 8.5 years to get to 4/5 curl.

Not starting an argument here but most sheep north of hwy 16 are legal b4 8.5.

From my experience and I'm by no means an expert non-mine Willmore rams don't reach 4/5ths until 7.5 yrs. Just talked to a guide for one of the outfitters there and he said 7.5 to 8.5 is the average for just legal rams. Those Kakwa rams are a little different than the ones in the Willmore and I wouldn't doubt the 8.5 number is right.

I remember when the mine was shut down and there was open access before they brought in the 444/446 draw, after all the big rams got shot up, all the 4.5 yr olds were getting taken because on the mine only they were 4/5ths at 4.5 years old. Just goes to show you how good feed makes for good horn growth.

[Hagar]

sheephunter,putting aside the cost of running such a course(lets say I have arranged the funding)What is you real beef with having to spend a little time taking a course of this type?You have said there are lots of constructive suggestions out there yet have you offered any?

As I have said I do not think there is a problem however others think there is and they are trying to make changes.Most of the changes have as much chance of making a difference as what I am proposing,which do you think would have the least impact on how we hunt sheep.A manditory course or more restrictive regulations?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Hagar

sheephunter,putting aside the cost of running such a course(lets say I have arranged the funding)What is you real beef with having to spend a little time taking a course of this type?You have said there are lots of constructive suggestions out there yet have you offered any?

As I have said I do not think there is a problem however others think there is and they are trying to make changes.Most of the changes have as much chance of making a difference as what I am proposing,which do you think would have the least impact on how we hunt sheep.A manditory course or more restrictive regulations?

I'd like to resond here, Hagar,

I know myself, and I believe others posting here feel this way, that there are times to hold your ground. Without recognition of a problem, there is little point in discussing how to fix it.
Why propose a compromise to a situation that doesn't need one ?
Should we 'duck' because the 'sky might fall' ?

You have stated that we 'don't know' if you belong to a southern game club, you did not tell us that you don't. Honestly, I wonder if your opinions and the rumours you have heard are related to a hidden agenda. Be honest and open. Do you belong to a game club? If yes, which one? Do you have knowledge of the source of these rumours you are concerned with, and if yes, will you reveal them?

I suggest to all, don't be a Walt Disney Lemming and follow the leader over the cliff.

Originally Posted by Hagar

sheephunter,putting aside the cost of running such a course(lets say I have arranged the funding)What is you real beef with having to spend a little time taking a course of this type?You have said there are lots of constructive suggestions out there yet have you offered any?

As I have said I do not think there is a problem however others think there is and they are trying to make changes.Most of the changes have as much chance of making a difference as what I am proposing,which do you think would have the least impact on how we hunt sheep.A manditory course or more restrictive regulations?

Hagar, you can't put the cost aside. The cost would be huge. The problem lies in the fact that you have hunters all over the province so how would you ever give them all access to the course without running hundreds of courses or putting undue hardships on those from outside of major centers.

I'm not sure why you are so resigned to the fact that restrictive changes are coming. You have basically given up and are now trying to find a palatable restriction. I think the point you are missing is that a course is a restrictive regulation for some. Ya, I live close to a major centre and have the funds to pay for a course so it would have basically no impact on me but that's not the case with thousands of Alberta's hunters. You just admitted above that a course would make little difference so why keep pushing it? I just don't see us having to settle for something. I'm not ready to give up and roll over and be dealt more regulations that accomplish nothing or that are so onerous that they put undue hardship on Alberta hunters.

You keep saying I'm against change and that somehow makes me selfish. Well, I totally support change if it makes sense or addresses a problem. I don't see a course doing that...not in a fiscally responsible manner anyhow. If you really want change...why not lobby for more predator control and habitat improvement. There's no arguing about how effective that will be. Sorry but I'm not willing to roll over and take what's dished out.....if that makes me a selfish hunter...so be it.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Rocks

From my experience and I'm by no means an expert non-mine Willmore rams don't reach 4/5ths until 7.5 yrs. Just talked to a guide for one of the outfitters there and he said 7.5 to 8.5 is the average for just legal rams. Those Kakwa rams are a little different than the ones in the Willmore and I wouldn't doubt the 8.5 number is right.

Maybe if this statement is true this is an issue that should be addressed. All the rest of alberta reach legal status around an average of 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 with the odd exception. So if the small northern area north of hwy 16 is 2 to 3 years longer then I think there is more to this than just being more northern and nutrition.
SG

[Setterman]

Having been in charge of wildlife conservation programing for the Northern part of the Province I feel I have a good idea of how educational programing works. In my opinion this is the only way something like this would work.

Any madatory course would be very challenging to develop and would take a great deal of time and money. I would suggest that one could organize a sheep seminar. This could be run through an organization like AHEIA. A one or two day seminar could involve guest speakers, experts in the field, CO's, horse people and experience sheep hunters. This type of seminar would be available for interested individuals who are interested in learning more about sheep. A nominal fee could be charged to recover costs of running the seminar. At first this could be done in Calgary and Edmonton and if there was enough interest perhaps it could be expanded. I remember about 8 years ago there was an awesome 1 or 2 day seminar out of the Calgary AHEIA office about cougars- very informative. I believe the "expert" that was brought in has passed away but something similar may be what some sheep hunters are looking for. Just my two cents.

just had to throw this out there. At this time there is a great program that is already developed called the " Alberta Fishing Education Program". The program is already developed, there are certified instructors throughout the province and still F&W will not make it mandatory that new fishermen/women take it. It would be very challenging to get the governmetn on side to make a sheep course mandatory plus I think poeple are tired of the government telling them what to do. Again just me two cents.

Cheers SM

Originally Posted by Rocks

From my experience and I'm by no means an expert non-mine Willmore rams don't reach 4/5ths until 7.5 yrs. Just talked to a guide for one of the outfitters there and he said 7.5 to 8.5 is the average for just legal rams. Those Kakwa rams are a little different than the ones in the Willmore and I wouldn't doubt the 8.5 number is right.

I remember when the mine was shut down and there was open access before they brought in the 444/446 draw, after all the big rams got shot up, all the 4.5 yr olds were getting taken because on the mine only they were 4/5ths at 4.5 years old. Just goes to show you how good feed makes for good horn growth.

Ya, I've seen the same thing Rocks. The Willmore is definitely the northern extent of bighorn range and they truly are different sheep. They take considerably longer to reach 4/5ths than southern rams and body wise they are considerably smaller as well. Even their ears are smaller..

I agree that feed and the more harsh climate are responsible.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Setterman

Having been in charge of wildlife conservation programing for the Northern part of the Province I feel I have a good idea of how educational programing works. In my opinion this is the only way something like this would work.

Any madatory course would be very challenging to develop and would take a great deal of time and money. I would suggest that one could organize a sheep seminar. This could be run through an organization like AHEIA. A one or two day seminar could involve guest speakers, experts in the field, CO's, horse people and experience sheep hunters. This type of seminar would be available for interested individuals who are interested in learning more about sheep. A nominal fee could be charged to recover costs of running the seminar. At first this could be done in Calgary and Edmonton and if there was enough interest perhaps it could be expanded. I remember about 8 years ago there was an awesome 1 or 2 day seminar out of the Calgary AHEIA office about cougars- very informative. I believe the "expert" that was brought in has passed away but something similar may be what some sheep hunters are looking for. Just my two cents. Cheers SM

I deffinatly think its a good way to go and think alot of guys would be interested in something like this. Some will have nothing to do with it as the are to good for something like this but I think it would be great for all sheep hunters!

Originally Posted by Setterman

Having been in charge of wildlife conservation programing for the Northern part of the Province I feel I have a good idea of how educational programing works. In my opinion this is the only way something like this would work.

Any madatory course would be very challenging to develop and would take a great deal of time and money. I would suggest that one could organize a sheep seminar. This could be run through an organization like AHEIA. A one or two day seminar could involve guest speakers, experts in the field, CO's, horse people and experience sheep hunters. This type of seminar would be available for interested individuals who are interested in learning more about sheep. A nominal fee could be charged to recover costs of running the seminar. At first this could be done in Calgary and Edmonton and if there was enough interest perhaps it could be expanded. I remember about 8 years ago there was an awesome 1 or 2 day seminar out of the Calgary AHEIA office about cougars- very informative. I believe the "expert" that was brought in has passed away but something similar may be what some sheep hunters are looking for. Just my two cents.

just had to throw this out there. At this time there is a great program that is already developed called the " Alberta Fishing Education Program". The program is already developed, there are certified instructors throughout the province and still F&W will not make it mandatory that new fishermen/women take it. It would be very challenging to get the governmetn on side to make a sheep course mandatory plus I think poeple are tired of the government telling them what to do. Again just me two cents.

Cheers SM

Good to hear some insight from someone that has actually been there and done that! I agree that a sheep seminar would be a great idea and likely very well received. As long as it wasn't mandatory, I think it would be a great idea. You volunteering to set it up...