Sheep Part 3

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Ok 2000 guys running around out there can only find 140 rams. You honestly think 1500 are gunna find the same amount? There are always gunna be some guys that decide that they dont wanna wait so they are gunna pass on that just legal first ram and hold out to be able to hunt more. Always gunna be lots of guys holding out for that big ram. Alwalys gunna be a few older guys leaving the sport(which will eliminate most of the total hunter increase of new hunters).

We both know that there isnt hundreds of new hunters flooding the mountains every year or we would be over populated in no time. No matter what you preach less hunters in the field can do nothing but decrease hunter harvest.

Your giving way more credit to alot of guys. Not to offend anyone but not everyone that goes sheep hunting is capable of killing a sheep. There are alot of great hunters that can but also alot of guys out there that just arent able to physicaly or mentaly. They try and put in an honest effort but just isnt gunna happen.


Like I said this isnt my first choice but it is better than no action to me!
SG

i dunno darcy, you told us your story of your first ram. you killed him, but there was a long line up of guys right behind you. very good chance one of those guys would have done it if you hadnt. same story with mine. there were 16 guys camped in the valley below where i got mine. if i hadnt got him, i know for a fact one of them would have. i can say that because i talked to one of the other camps a couple weeks later and they found the carcass of my ram. they said they didnt locate the other legal ram that was with mine, but i bet one of those camps did. there are just more guys looking than there are available rams. i dont really see the numbers working to kill less with the 5 year wait, but i do agree that trying something may be better than doing nothing, at least as long as it doesnt make things worse. the nice thing about this plan is that it seems to be about the least restrictive way to go regarding opportunity.

[mad mountain mike]

I understand that wolf populations are high and they pose a problem, but unless you have time to sit over a bait they seldom show themselves long enough to get a shot, so I don,t think hunters could make a dent.
Cougars on the other hand, it seems that once or twice a season they do show themselves for more than a few seconds. Would it be feasible to temporarily attach a cougar licence to a sheep licence and let sheep hunters thin the big cats out a little?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

i dunno darcy, you told us your story of your first ram. you killed him, but there was a long line up of guys right behind you. very good chance one of those guys would have done it if you hadnt. same story with mine. there were 16 guys camped in the valley below where i got mine. if i hadnt got him, i know for a fact one of them would have. i can say that because i talked to one of the other camps a couple weeks later and they found the carcass of my ram. they said they didnt locate the other legal ram that was with mine, but i bet one of those camps did. there are just more guys looking than there are available rams. i dont really see the numbers working to kill less with the 5 year wait, but i do agree that trying something may be better than doing nothing, at least as long as it doesnt make things worse. the nice thing about this plan is that it seems to be about the least restrictive way to go regarding opportunity.

Your right this was the case and is lots of times but there are a chance they wouldnt have made the stalk or the shot. Just because people are there doesnt mean they are gunna kill every sheep. There are a good number of rams that survive the season that the guys havent or are uncapable of finding.
Im not saying im 100% right but the only honest way to see if this works or doesnt work is to do it. There are to many variables that none of us have or can have numbers until that time. The biggest deciding factor on this is it right that guys should be able to kill any sheep every 2 years. My answer is no! Will a wait help Maybe. Is a maybe better than nothing? Forsure. Its not going to hurt the population. All its gunna do is hurt a few guys feelings that want to have the oppertunity to kill a sheep every 2 years!

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

i dunno darcy, you told us your story of your first ram. you killed him, but there was a long line up of guys right behind you. very good chance one of those guys would have done it if you hadnt. same story with mine. there were 16 guys camped in the valley below where i got mine. if i hadnt got him, i know for a fact one of them would have. i can say that because i talked to one of the other camps a couple weeks later and they found the carcass of my ram. they said they didnt locate the other legal ram that was with mine, but i bet one of those camps did. there are just more guys looking than there are available rams. i dont really see the numbers working to kill less with the 5 year wait, but i do agree that trying something may be better than doing nothing, at least as long as it doesnt make things worse. the nice thing about this plan is that it seems to be about the least restrictive way to go regarding opportunity.

Dale I was 100% with you until the last. Why are some people on this board so willing to roll over and take whatever is shoved at them and even willing to help with the shoving when we have no idea if F&W figures there's a problem and if there is, what that problem is. Trying something is most definitely not better than nothing when you have no idea what you are trying to fix. Why do we need anything restrictive? I'm not saying we don't but I'm not about to have something shoved down my throat without knowing why. Hunters have enough restriction in this province without another one that is based on "better than nothing" scholl of management. Sometimes nothing is the best solution...especially when we have absolutely no clue in the world what's wrong.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Your right this was the case and is lots of times but there are a chance they wouldnt have made the stalk or the shot. Just because people are there doesnt mean they are gunna kill every sheep. There are a good number of rams that survive the season that the guys havent or are uncapable of finding.
Im not saying im 100% right but the only honest way to see if this works or doesnt work is to do it. There are to many variables that none of us have or can have numbers until that time. The biggest deciding factor on this is it right that guys should be able to kill any sheep every 2 years. My answer is no! Will a wait help Maybe. Is a maybe better than nothing? Forsure. Its not going to hurt the population. All its gunna do is hurt a few guys feelings that want to have the oppertunity to kill a sheep every 2 years!

So you see more restrictive hunting regulations that limit opportunity and keep hunters out of the field for no sound reason nothing more than hurting a couple guys' feelings? Give me a break. It erodes the foundation of every right and privelage that we as hunters have fought so hard to attain. So what are you willing to give up next that will only hurt a few guys' feelings? And what after that? And after that? This is turning into a bad episode of the Twilight Zone.

You seem to think that everyone opposed to the 5 year wait wants to kill a ram every two years. Well, that couldn't be further from the truth. They want their right to hunt sheep protected. This isn't isn't about killing...it's about the right to hunt. I know you are just a sheep enthusiast but a lot of us take our rights to hunt quite seriously.

[ishootbambi]

yes i agree too many rams are dying young. i for one would like to see more big mature sheep out there and have tossed out an idea or 2 to make it happen. i understand that some guys think a little 150 inch 5 year old is a great trophy. i agree that simply based on the rarity of it happening that it is. yes any legal sheep is a trophy, ive said it many times. thing is i think a 170 inch 9 year old is a better trophy. i think a 12 year old is a better trophy yet, regardless of what it scores. i do get that some guys dont give a funk or a waggle about age or score and think any legal sheep is a trophy. i do get that my opinion is not the only one to consider. in fact considering the other opinions over the past 3 threads, i have changed my stance some as well. i never asked for every zone in the province to be on draw....sure leave some the way they are. even zones on draw could be open to archery guys just like mule deer are in most of the province.
as for my post over in the wolf thread, i still dont see how eliminating wolves period...entirely....will put more mature rams on the hills when hunters are still the number one cause of death for legal rams.

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE=sheephunter;512714]Dale I was 100% with you until the last. [QUOTE]

I think TJ what most guys are going with on these waits and other suggestions is that more sheep on the hill are needed. Part by personal sightings dropping and part by just wanting impovment.

No one here is wanting to just roll over but are willing to work with change to get improvment.
Just because there isnt a huge problem doesnt mean things cant be improved on.
No one wants anything restrictive but its comng one way or the other(im sure you can see that)and some guys just wanna figure out the best way without a bunch of restrictions.
And no one has said the wait is the best option but it is an option non the less.
SG

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

yes i agree too many rams are dying young. i for one would like to see more big mature sheep out there and have tossed out an idea or 2 to make it happen. i understand that some guys think a little 150 inch 5 year old is a great trophy. i agree that simply based on the rarity of it happening that it is. yes any legal sheep is a trophy, ive said it many times. thing is i think a 170 inch 9 year old is a better trophy. i think a 12 year old is a better trophy yet, regardless of what it scores. i do get that some guys dont give a funk or a waggle about age or score and think any legal sheep is a trophy. i do get that my opinion is not the only one to consider. in fact considering the other opinions over the past 3 threads, i have changed my stance some as well. i never asked for every zone in the province to be on draw....sure leave some the way they are. even zones on draw could be open to archery guys just like mule deer are in most of the province.
as for my post over in the wolf thread, i still dont see how eliminating wolves period...entirely....will put more mature rams on the hills when hunters are still the number one cause of death for legal rams.

Dale, I sometimes think it's easier to look at more restrictive regulations that would put more older sheep on the mountain when you already have one on the wall. The truth is, most guys don't and I'm not sure we should restrict that opportunity. I'd love more older sheep too but I know way too many guys that are still looking for that one ram.....regardless of age or trophy quality. I personally would hate to see that right taken away from them for no sound management reason.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So you see more restrictive hunting regulations that limit opportunity and keep hunters out of the field for no sound reason nothing more than hurting a couple guys' feelings? Give me a break. It erodes the foundation of every right and privelage that we as hunters have fought so hard to attain. So what are you willing to give up next that will only hurt a few guys' feelings? And what after that? And after that? This is turning into a bad episode of the Twilight Zone.

You seem to think that everyone opposed to the 5 year wait wants to kill a ram every two years. Well, that couldn't be further from the truth. They want their right to hunt sheep protected. This isn't isn't about killing...it's about the right to hunt. I know you are just a sheep enthusiast but a lot of us take our rights to hunt quite seriously.

I understand TJ but we arent talking about ****ing deer. Just because you figure it is your right doesnt mean its whats best. The thing your avoiding is that change is coming it has happened to every other species in alberta(That have way higher numbers than sheep) other than whitetails. The ideas are put out there to avoid long waited draws or lifetime numbers. Many would rather have the chance to shoot a sheep then wait instead of waiting how ever many years to put in for draws. Everyone still gets to hunt unlike the other options!
Any one will help the situation it all boils down to if you wait before a tag or after!

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I think TJ what most guys are going with on these waits and other suggestions is that more sheep on the hill are needed. Part by personal sightings dropping and part by just wanting impovment.

No one here is wanting to just roll over but are willing to work with change to get improvment.
Just because there isnt a huge problem doesnt mean things cant be improved on.
No one wants anything restrictive but its comng one way or the other(im sure you can see that)and some guys just wanna figure out the best way without a bunch of restrictions.
And no one has said the wait is the best option but it is an option non the less.
SG

So what if the suggestion was to prevent access to the backcountry with quads or horses? It would likely only hurt a few guys' feelings and the impact on improving sheep quality would be considerable? Far more than a Five-year wait. Would that be better than nothing?

Why is something coming? Who has said it is? And if there is, what is that something supposed to fix? I fail to see how you can figure anything out without knowing what's broken. The five-year wait resolution said the only thing broken was that some guys couldn't kill rams because other guys were better at it than them. Is that what you a suggesting we should fix? Or perhaps you agree with the e-mail I posted that "average" Albertans are just a hinderance to serious sheep hunters. Maybe we should fix that. Come on Darcy...you're a bright guy......demand an explaination rather than rolling over and playing dead. Or helping them kill you.........

[dirty barrel]

what do you guys think of a system like they have up in alaska where a ram has to be full curl or broomed off on both horns? we could have full curl or4/5 if broomed on both horns. Might prevent them young,lamb tipped sqeakers from getting killed

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I understand TJ but we arent talking about ****ing deer. Just because you figure it is your right doesnt mean its whats best. The thing your avoiding is that change is coming it has happened to every other species in alberta(That have way higher numbers than sheep) other than whitetails. The ideas are put out there to avoid long waited draws or lifetime numbers. Many would rather have the chance to shoot a sheep then wait instead of waiting how ever many years to put in for draws. Everyone still gets to hunt unlike the other options!
Any one will help the situation it all boils down to if you wait before a tag or after!

I'd rather have someone explain what we are trying to fix first. You are so resigned to the fact something is wrong but no one can put their finger on it. Well what is it?

You say that's what it boils down to and I say bull crap. It boils down to no such thing. There is no way on earth that a five year wait would do anything compared to a draw. It's like comparing a hammer to pillow and telling you you had to pick one to drive to the store.

Originally Posted by dirty barrel

what do you guys think of a system like they have up in alaska where a ram has to be full curl or broomed off on both horns? we could have full curl or4/5 if broomed on both horns. Might prevent them young,lamb tipped sqeakers from getting killed

One of the dangers of comparing bighorns to thinhorns is that they are very different in a lot of ways. Thinhorns don't have the propensity for brooming that bighorns do and most bighorns broom at a fairly young age. I guess I can see an issue with the definition of broomed on a bighorn as well. They start rubbing horn tip back at a young age. What would actually be considered broomed?

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE=sheephunter;512738][QUOTE=sheepguide;512726]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Dale I was 100% with you until the last.

So what if the suggestion was to prevent access to the backcountry with quads or horses? It would likely only hurt a few guys' feelings and the impact on improving sheep quality would be considerable? Far more than a Five-year wait. Would that be better than nothing?

Why is something coming? Who has said it is? And if there is, what is that something supposed to fix? I fail to see how you can figure anything out without knowing what's broken. The five-year wait resolution said the only thing broken was that some guys couldn't kill rams because other guys were better at it than them. Is that what you a suggesting we should fix? Or perhaps you agree with the e-mail I posted that "average" Albertans are just a hinderance to serious sheep hunters. Maybe we should fix that. Come on Darcy...you're a brigyht guy......demand an explaination rather than rolling over and playing dead. Or helping them kill you.........

Tj I faught hard against draws for mule deer moose and elk in the areas that I hunt. There were thousands against it. Things still went through. Whether you or I like it sheep will be on draw or some restrictive measure in the next few years. Maybe you cant see it but many can. I do demand explanations to things I dont agree with. As far as limiting some factors on sheep hunting I agree with 100%. Sure its maybe my right to hunt sheep but I have a bigger right to want to see them flurish. My passion is with Bighorns more so than hunting them. Thats why I spend so much time in the mountains in the off season.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You are so resigned to the fact something is wrong but no one can put their finger on it. Well what is it?

Does there have to be something wrong before we do something to improve things? Ive never stated a problem. Just that i personaly feel that our sheep and sheephunting could be better.

STOP ASKING WHERE THE PROBLEM IS!!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE=sheepguide;512747][QUOTE=sheephunter;512738]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Tj I faught hard against draws for mule deer moose and elk in the areas that I hunted. There were thousands against it. Things still went through. Whether you or I like it sheep will be on draw or some restrictive measure in the next few years. Maybe you cant see it but many can. I do demand explanations to things I dont agree with. As far as limiting some factors on sheep hunting I agree with 100%. Sure its maybe my right to hunt sheep but I have a bigger right to want to see them flurish. My passion is with Bighorns more so than hunting them. Thats why I spend so much time in the mountains in the off season.

So you fought hard in areas you hunted because you didn't want opportunity taken away from you even though there waas evidence that the population could not withstand a general season. Why on earth would you do that? It couldn't hurt could it?

All of the other species were put on draw because of concern over population numbers. There was a sound management reason. I've seen no indication from SRD that sheep numbers are in peril from hunters.. If I do, I'd join your crusade to reduce the harvest. I won't do it because "it can't hurt."

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Does there have to be something wrong before we do something to improve things? Ive never stated a problem. Just that i personaly feel that our sheep and sheephunting could be better.

STOP ASKING WHERE THE PROBLEM IS!!!!!!!!!

Then stop offering suggestions to fix things that involve restricting hunter opportunity. Why are you so desperate to restrict hunters when you admittedly don't know of a problem. Sheep hunting seems pretty good the way it is right now to many. We have many general seasons. The opportunity to havest a legal ram is very good and there are enough big/old rams killed each year to keep the trophy hunters heading to the mountains. We should take some of those opportunities away because there is no problem? Because it couldn't hurt?

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE=sheephunter;512755][QUOTE=sheepguide;512747]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So you fought hard in areas you hunted because you didn't want opportunity taken away from you even though there waas evidence that the population could not withstand a general season. Why on earth would you do that? It couldn't hurt could it?

All of the other species were put on draw because of concern over population numbers. There was a sound management reason. I've seen no indication from SRD that sheep numbers are in peril from hunters.. If I do, I'd join your crusade to reduce the harvest. I won't do it because "it can't hurt."

I faught elk and stuff in the mountain zones because they said there is a population problem. How does limiting the number of bulls increase the population? And then they put out some years over a hundred bull tags. How does that help. Look at most mountain zones now... no increase. In most it was a steady decline still. The hunters dont kill the cows in the zones I hunt, if the population was there reason then predators should have been number 1. Just like everyone said here about sheep.

I feel the population of sheep could be better but options im supporting on this thread is for a more mature bunch of Rams if I was going hard for a larger population id be trying to go with what is killing your reproducing animals(ewes).
SG

[QUOTE=sheepguide;512779][QUOTE=sheephunter;512755]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I faught elk and stuff in the mountain zones because they said there is a population problem. How does limiting the number of bulls increase the population? And then they put out some years over a hundred bull tags. How does that help. Look at most mountain zones now... no increase. In most it was a steady decline still. The hunters dont kill the cows in the zones I hunt, if the population was there reason then predators should have been number 1. Just like everyone said here about sheep.

I feel the population of sheep could be better but options im supporting on this thread is for a more mature bunch of Rams if I was going hard for a larger population id be trying to go with what is killing your reproducing animals(ewes).
SG

Oh, so you fought it because they were trying to create a more mature age structure in bulls? Now that makes sense. So much different than your position on sheep Come on Darcy, that is the classic NIMBY response.

No arguement about predators, we've agreed on that all along but elk, moose, deer populations were suffering. No one has said sheep are.

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE=sheephunter;512796][QUOTE=sheepguide;512779]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Oh, so you fought it because they were trying to create a more mature age structure in bulls? Now that makes sense. So much different than your position on sheep Come on Darcy, that is the classic NIMBY response.

No arguement about predators, we've agreed on that all along but elk, moose, deer populations were suffering. No one has said sheep are.

No I fought the way they were going about it! I didnt agree that their idea would help the population. And so far it hasnt.

And your right no one has said sheep populations in general are suffering

[ishootbambi]

sorry tj, i thought i was clear on what i thought the problem was. i have said through the whole saga here that i for one would like to have more mature rams in the hills. it has been well proven that overall numbers seem to be doing fine, but that big mature rams are scarce. yes there are a few that get whacked when they roam out of sanctuaries like the mines and parks, but in general sheep hunting zones they are pretty rare. just this year ksteed got a hog that wandered over from the mine in bc. it seems agreed that he grew up on the mine at sparwood due to his black horns, and kyle caught him over in alberta. congrats to a lucky hunter. the point is, he spent a good chunk of his life protected. same goes for ram #90 that got hit by a car. the poster of the pic said that ram spent a great deal of his time in an area off limits to hunters, but lived close enough to maybe be legal at times. he never did wander out in front of a hunter. i wish there were more like him in huntable zones. i would also love to see more areas opened for sheep hunting...i believe siffleur and white goat were at the top of that list. not my idea....someone elses, but a good i dea i think. my point is that as long as things are the way they are, big mature rams will remain a rarity. to keep doing what has always been done and hoping for a different result is futile. the only way to change the end is to change the means and thats what i thought this was all about. to be clear, although i suggested a draw from the start, i never asked for it to be province wide. i see the need for ample opportunity for those wanting to just hunt. although i dont see the 5 year wait working to put more mature sheep out there, i cant say for sure it wont. it is less restrictive than a draw so some may find it more palatable. agan, i dont think it will achieve the end result, but i dont see it hurting the sheep any. it will restrict some hunting opportunity and it has been said enough that restricting opportunity is the only way to increase trophy quality. and , same as a draw, im not sure this has to be province wide either. i am not accepting anything shoved down my throat tj. i am for change. i feel change would be good for trophy sheep hunting in alberta, but i do see the desires of others for maximum opportunity. i dont think im being rigid about it either. i am looking at everyones views and looking for solutions to please the majority of hunters. there is no way everyone will be happy with any changes made....just as not all are happy with the status quo.

[209x50]

I just got off the phone and I’m still stunned by the news. According to the person I spoke with the ABA is putting forth at least 3 resolutions to do with sheep. One would limit the maximum number that a person could kill in a lifetime, a second recommends a 3 to 5 year waiting period after a hunter kills a ram. The third I didn’t quite understand but sounded like a something that had been brought up here with a scale based on ram ages. Don’t quote me on that as I’m not sure I understood it all.
I guess it is time I dusted off my ban horses while hunting proposal, I mean if everyone is getting to pound a nail into sheep hunting I should have one too, right?
What could it hurt? What could it hurt has been fired off all over this board, well just remember this started with a handful of guys (AWS) thinking there should be older sheep on the mountain. Now look where it has snowballed to.
Here is my tally so far of the proposed resolutions to manage sheep hunters – not the sheep.
AFGA – 5 year wait resolution.
AWS/SRD- 5 year wait.
ABA – the three above.
The nameless southern AB group that is pushing for full curl only across the province.
I’m still waiting for the proposals from Trout unlimited and PF (JK).
All this and no one has yet to produce any evidence that there is a problem!

Letters are our biggest defense from needless bureaucracy and meaningless hunter management in our sport these two fellows below are really good people to address them too.

Corrigan, Rob
Provincial Big Game Specialist
Game and Priorities Species
Sustainable Resource Development
2nd fl Great West Life Building
9920 - 108 Street
Edmonton, AB
T5K 2M4

Phone: 780 644-8011
Fax: 780 422-9557
E-mail: rob.corrigan@gov.ab.ca

Bjorge, Ron
Executive Director, Wildlife Management
Wildlife Management Branch
Sustainable Resource Development
2nd fl Great West Life Building
9920 - 108 Street
Edmonton, AB
T5K 2M4

Phone: 780 427-9503
Fax: 780 422-9557
E-mail: ron.bjorge@gov.ab.ca

Okay, I'll admit I'm the biggest critic when it comes to conspiracy theories and I'll happily accept any flack that comes my way but I'm breaking out the tinfoil hat. How does sheep go from being a non-issue last year to the hottest topic of every related hunting/conservation group out there. I smell a conspiracy here. Someone is manipulating the system to drive a private agenda and it stinks to high heaven. There is no coincidence here. I'll say it, the sky is falling. There is no way that all these groups just happened to think of these things similtaneously when there has been no indication from SRD that there is a problem. Funny how SRD seemed to support the same idea before AO members questioned them on it. I agree with 209, time to write some letters and find out what's really going here and find out who is pulling the string and to what end. Contrary to what many believe, individual letters do make a difference.

Sorry but I'm not willing to buy into the "what can it hurt" school of thought. What can it hurt? Hunters' rights!

[sheepguide]

Kinda funny how some guys say there out there for the betterment of sheep but dont wanna do anything until there is a visable problem. And say others are wrong for wanting to protect and help things before we get to the problem state!!!

[walking buffalo]

Thanks for the update 209,

There must be a member from ABA here that is willing to confirm 209's comments, and post the proposed resolutions. If no one from ABA will confirm or deny, +1 for the conspiracy theory.

Anyone else notice that there has been no resolutions regarding reducing Non- Resident Sheep allocations?

With these letters, ask for a response to your questions, don't just give an opinion.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Okay, I'll admit I'm the biggest critic when it comes to conspiracy theories and I'll happily accept any flack that comes my way but I'm breaking out the tinfoil hat. How does sheep go from being a non-issue last year to the hottest topic of every related hunting/conservation group out there. I smell a conspiracy here. Someone is manipulating the system to drive a private agenda and it stinks to high heaven. There is no coincidence here. I'll say it, the sky is falling. There is no way that all these groups just happened to think of these things similtaneously when there has been no indication from SRD that there is a problem. Funny how SRD seemed to support the same idea before AO members questioned them on it. I agree with 209, time to write some letters and find out what's really going here and find out who is pulling the string and to what end. Contrary to what many believe, individual letters do make a difference.

Sorry but I'm not willing to buy into the "what can it hurt" school of thought. What can it hurt? Hunters' rights!

It is kind of like the old whodunnits; you always follow the money.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

sorry tj, i thought i was clear on what i thought the problem was. i have said through the whole saga here that i for one would like to have more mature rams in the hills. it has been well proven that overall numbers seem to be doing fine, but that big mature rams are scarce. yes there are a few that get whacked when they roam out of sanctuaries like the mines and parks, but in general sheep hunting zones they are pretty rare. just this year ksteed got a hog that wandered over from the mine in bc. it seems agreed that he grew up on the mine at sparwood due to his black horns, and kyle caught him over in alberta. congrats to a lucky hunter. the point is, he spent a good chunk of his life protected. same goes for ram #90 that got hit by a car. the poster of the pic said that ram spent a great deal of his time in an area off limits to hunters, but lived close enough to maybe be legal at times. he never did wander out in front of a hunter. i wish there were more like him in huntable zones. i would also love to see more areas opened for sheep hunting...i believe siffleur and white goat were at the top of that list. not my idea....someone elses, but a good i dea i think. my point is that as long as things are the way they are, big mature rams will remain a rarity. to keep doing what has always been done and hoping for a different result is futile. the only way to change the end is to change the means and thats what i thought this was all about. to be clear, although i suggested a draw from the start, i never asked for it to be province wide. i see the need for ample opportunity for those wanting to just hunt. although i dont see the 5 year wait working to put more mature sheep out there, i cant say for sure it wont. it is less restrictive than a draw so some may find it more palatable. agan, i dont think it will achieve the end result, but i dont see it hurting the sheep any. it will restrict some hunting opportunity and it has been said enough that restricting opportunity is the only way to increase trophy quality. and , same as a draw, im not sure this has to be province wide either. i am not accepting anything shoved down my throat tj. i am for change. i feel change would be good for trophy sheep hunting in alberta, but i do see the desires of others for maximum opportunity. i dont think im being rigid about it either. i am looking at everyones views and looking for solutions to please the majority of hunters. there is no way everyone will be happy with any changes made....just as not all are happy with the status quo.

What it will hurt Dale is that it will prevent 700 dedicated mountain hunters from hunting the mountains for 5 years. By F&W's own definition it is illegal to accompany another hunter on a hunt and assist in that hunt in any way. (Darcy, please don't go off on a tangent here about what I've done and what Rich has done. I have no interest in debating this subject...it's in black and white) I'm just passing along what the Wildlife Act says. So following that, if a hunter kills a ram and wants to follow the letter of the law, he/she must basically stay out of the mountains during hunting season with his hunting companions for five years. Some will say that F&W will never enforce that and they could be right but by the letter of the law, that's what a five-year wait would do. Do we really want to promote that type of regulation? Do we really want to open that door? I can think of no more draconian regulation.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Kinda funny how some guys say there out there for the betterment of sheep but dont wanna do anything until there is a visable problem. And say others are wrong for wanting to protect and help things before we get to the problem state!!!

Finally we agree Darcy.....I want to protect hunters' rights before we get to a problem state! This type of restriction is the biggest problem I can see. It targets certain groups, punishes the hard working and successful and restricts hunters from being in the mountains.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm just passing along what the Wildlife Act says. So following that, if a hunter kills a ram and wants to follow the letter of the law, he/she must basically stay out of the mountains during hunting season with his hunting companions for five years. Some will say that F&W will never enforce that and they could be right but by the letter of the law, that's what a five-year wait would do. Do we really want to promote that type of regulation? Do we really want to open that door? I can think of no more draconian regulation.

And little pressure from the guys supporting these resolutions could also be directed at F&W to follow the letter of the law.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

And little pressure from the guys supporting these resolutions could also be directed at F&W to follow the letter of the law.

Amen, anyone that can't see that coming is blind.