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  #181  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:17 AM
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laker laker is offline
 
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I agree wth CTaylor, the use of cwd for a case to disallow baiting is there. Alberta will never allow baiting for deer. In Sask,I believe way back when the outfitters and the govt were deciding over where the businesses could be run,there was a settlement made that to keep the non-resident pressure away from resident hunting, was to give the outfitters the northern half of the province and allowed them to bait. Which I would assume the outfitters asked for as a prerequisite to go north. I worked for a reputable Sask outfitter for many years, and did the bating thing, and yes if done properly, it is very effective. The law there states that an outfitter has to post the bait site with his particulars, similar to a bear bait here in Ab. The outfitter does not own the bait site. I have seen only a few times over the years that a resident hunter was sitting at one of my stations. All times they left peacefully going back to their own sites! Residents can bait there as well, I do not know of many that do, it is a lot of work if you want to do it rght and actually really increase your odds at taking a trophy. If AB did really ever legalize baiting, I honestly beleive that there would not be a huge influx of grain piles all over the land. Maybe we would see a lot less trucks bombing around and those drivers actually sitting in a blind and hunting! What I found with salt was that during the winter the deer did not pay any attention to it. It wasnt till midsummer that it was hit and really devoured by late summer to early fall. One winter, I thought I would run a few sites to feed deer wth hopes of collecting some trophy sheds. So I proceeded to buy grain and go for it. Well it did not last long, the cash ran out. I did find some beauty sheds,and the deer moved on and continued eating what they normally do.
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  #182  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:21 AM
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CBintheNorth CBintheNorth is offline
 
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http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$Department/deptdocs.nsf/all/cpv9448

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/FishWildli...s/Default.aspx

Here are a couple of links with a ton of stats and info.-it's a pain to copy and paste a pdf from my phone.
All the info minus 2011/2012.
They did voluntary head submission in part of the Edmonton bow zone for one year and then stopped. No data on how many that I could find then or now.
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  #183  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:35 AM
buck1979 buck1979 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pre64 View Post
I recall Dean Partridge stating he waits until a big buck starts showing up at the feeding area during legal light (this scouting info comes via trail cameras) and only then will he set up to harvest the buck.
No, Not exactly... I have said that, until I am in a position, that I know where that deer is regularly in daylight, that I will not waste time hunting it, rather continue scouting. Becuase frankly if I dont know where he is spending his daylight hours, I haven't done my homework. The point to that statment is exactly the opposite of how you interperted it. I don't wait, ever. If I hang a trail camera on a post, trail, field edge, or a bait, if I do not get pics of visiuals of my target buck in 48-72 hours, Im in the wrong spot and obviously not in his house. So we scout and move, and figure out the deer, THEN when were in a position where we know where he IS travelling in good light, we will go and hunt him.

The great bait... debait. I wont get into it. But I will say... your probably better off in Alberta without. I dont believe it adversley effects them, or spreads disease. Out herd here is fine after decades of baiting. That said, it does present a whole magnitude of social issues with hunters your probably better without.


For tipping the odds... You would be surprised. You can find a big buck, and I dont care what you put out for bait, if your not in the right spot you will not see him in daylight, period.

The time I think it tips the odds, is the rut. If you have a bunch of does hanging around, there is an increased odds that one will drag a buck by you. Any other time of the year, a 7/8/9 year old buck, is pretty suspicious of a grain pile and you can hurt your chances of getting him more by baiting quite often. Personally I wouldnt have any interest in sitting a bait day in and day out just hoping that a good one will come by one day.

...I read on this thread with the right bait you can grow a 200" whitetail... I will go with umm... no. You cant grow a wild whitetail period. There is a whole multitude of things that need to align to produce such a deer, and a hunter out baiting contributes 0 to this. The only thing the average hunter can do to help "grow" a big buck is to let the 2/3/4/5 year old bucks walk.

Dean
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  #184  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:42 AM
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NIKON NIKON is offline
 
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Bottom line , Will they continue to ban baiting
I'd say yes

On-going Elements
- use hunter harvest as the primary tool for monitoring CWD increase & spread.
- dialogue with provincial and federal agriculture agencies to minimize further introduction of CWD or
expansion of enzootic areas.
- remove and test suspect live ungulates which exhibit emaciation or neurologic signs.
- restrict live ungulate transfer from enzootic to non-enzootic areas (aka orphan fawns/calves).
- retain ban on ungulate baiting.
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  #185  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:51 AM
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Speckle55 Speckle55 is offline
 
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here is another reason thats coming and may hit our deer population its killing lots in some states .. i posted before

Food for Thought

David

http://outdoorchannel.com/Hunting/Ne...ewsletter_I214
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  #186  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buck1979 View Post
Out herd here is fine after decades of baiting.
Dean
Not sure I'd call a herd with a spreading occurance of CWD fine. Not saying CWD can be traced to baiting or even that there is evidence to support the rate at which CWD spreads in baited vs non-baited populations but CWD is a relative newcomer to western Canada and we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg yet I don't believe, especially if we look south of the 49th to see their experience. Western Canadian herds are definitely not fine.

I'm not sure there is enough evidence either way to call for a suspension in baiting in Saskatchewan and I don't hear that call too loud yet but there is unquestionably enough evidence to support that it should not be introduced into new areas.
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  #187  
Old 12-07-2012, 12:31 PM
buck1979 buck1979 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
Not sure I'd call a herd with a spreading occurance of CWD fine. Not saying CWD can be traced to baiting or even that there is evidence to support the rate at which CWD spreads in baited vs non-baited populations but CWD is a relative newcomer to western Canada and we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg yet I don't believe, especially if we look south of the 49th to see their experience. Western Canadian herds are definitely not fine.

I'm not sure there is enough evidence either way to call for a suspension in baiting in Saskatchewan and I don't hear that call too loud yet but there is unquestionably enough evidence to support that it should not be introduced into new areas.
There is no information that CWD is spreading, testing has grown which provides more positive cases.

The US IS a great example in CWD. Massive culls, bait bans etc etc... and nearly all state departments have walked away from those efforts because it hasnt changed the infection rate.

I personally dont believe its a newcomer, just now found because we looked for it.

For anyone who spends a lot of time watching whitetails interact, its ridiculous to think that a bait is all of a sudden causing contact.

Personally, I think the biggest downside to baiting in alberta would be the social problems amoung hunters it can cause, and does in Sk.
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  #188  
Old 12-07-2012, 12:39 PM
Sledhead71 Sledhead71 is offline
 
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Just a couple things to add to the great debate

Stats show Mule deer infection rate significantly higher than the whitetail deer which is the prime target when utilizing artificial bait as a means to capture pictures, study or hunt over.

Sask has allowed baiting for the purpose of hunting and in all reality should show an increase in CWD positive tests in the whitetail deer along or greater than the mule deer tested, it dosn't.

Here is why.... ( see pic )

We can not stop deer from herding up and coming into contact with each other with all the man made "bait" that exists in our culture. Even if there were 500 bait piles with-in a mile of this hay stack, do you really think these mule deer would not feed and come into contact here ? By the way, this is farm country and plenty of leaky bins, alfalfa flats and dozens of other stacks in this area...

Funny that people believe in commercials As Dean indicates a bag of magic does not produce 200 inch jumpers.. It's an attractant and certainly aid a little in the health of the herd, but genetics rules and thinking a certain animal with the genetic disposition to only grow at maturity 160 inches of bone will pack 40 more on cause the bags says so, well you were sucked in.

Onto looking at possible bright sides to the baiting issue, those who are dedicated to this method may actually be doing us all a favour in the long run.. As we all can agree, the rut is hard on the males of ungulates, so providing high sources of feed in a time when mother nature pounds them, well it just may aid in the survival of a few that may have parished ?

How about the females carrying young through the winter ? Would some easy groceries in the tougher months help the doe carry through winter and possibly have twins instead of a single fawn ? Pretty sure in Alberta there are clubs that have and possibly still feeding ungulates to aid in the survival rates come spring...

So, in a nut shell, with some scetchy data, less than a half dozen whitetail deer found to test positive for CWD per year would baiting actually hinder or help the general population ? Pretty sure in my mind that the thousands of baits in Sask have ensured more than a half dozen whitetails survived till spring than actually contacted a disease
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File Type: jpg Mel_s_Hay_Stack_Trail_Cam_Pic_s_117.jpg (129.0 KB, 59 views)

Last edited by Sledhead71; 12-07-2012 at 12:48 PM.
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  #189  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:01 PM
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Considering that mule deer are more of a herd animal than whitetails, it makes sense that their increase in close contact would lead to higher infection rates. Unfortunately, baiting puts whitetails in the same albeit unnatural situation. As I've said, the disease is new in western Canada and fairly confined geographically....give it time.
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  #190  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:10 PM
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Speckle55 Speckle55 is offline
 
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Lets see Mule deer and Whitetail deer and then Elk and now Moose in the states and in Sask Elk 2 of them it was in Sask/Alta along the border now its into the Battle River and NSR drainages and is slowly moving West

Understand how diseases travel and are passed on is important.. WHO has tables that show infection rates and so does SRD

We keep the Rats at the border but because of public opinion from un-informed people we are not keeping at border CWD

In Europe they stopped farm equipment from moving from county to county and boots had to be wash off before getting on planes

some people will not read the info on how CWD is spreading to other states and how it got here but Elk came up from Col to Alberta and Sask then single fences and poor containment lead to outbreak here and Sask..... and the Elk our producers sent to Korea lead to a outbreak there too

if you have more numbers the infection rate will be more as reports prove.. it started at one animal

wow i was hoping that people would inform themselfs so they can inform others just look at CWD news on their site as to newm infections in other states

its not going away folks untill the numbers drop to extreme low numbers or some will have a immunity to CWD

David
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  #191  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:11 PM
Sledhead71 Sledhead71 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
Considering that mule deer are more of a herd animal than whitetails, it makes sense that their increase in close contact would lead to higher infection rates. Unfortunately, baiting puts whitetails in the same albeit unnatural situation. As I've said, the disease is new in western Canada and fairly confined geographically....give it time.
Correct on most accounts You way of thinking with baiting bringing a species that isn't clasified persay as a herding type closer together over bait then would obviously increase risk which should be obvious on numbers which test positive right ? But the numbers do not show your therory to be correct and artificial baiting to contribute to the spread of this disease.

Regarding being "new", hog wash man ! Bet ya that CWD has been around longer than anyone is willing to admit, we just test for now causing all panic and concerns in our community..
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  #192  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post
Correct on most accounts You way of thinking with baiting bringing a species that isn't clasified persay as a herding type closer together over bait then would obviously increase risk which should be obvious on numbers which test positive right ? But the numbers do not show your therory to be correct and artificial baiting to contribute to the spread of this disease.

Regarding being "new", hog wash man ! Bet ya that CWD has been around longer than anyone is willing to admit, we just test for now causing all panic and concerns in our community..
And that's where we disagree...I believe it is new to this area and we haven't seen the tip of the iceberg yet. I think my numbers show my theory to be correct in areas that have CWD for a longer period of time.
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  #193  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:30 PM
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Speckle55 Speckle55 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post
Correct on most accounts You way of thinking with baiting bringing a species that isn't clasified persay as a herding type closer together over bait then would obviously increase risk which should be obvious on numbers which test positive right ? But the numbers do not show your therory to be correct and artificial baiting to contribute to the spread of this disease.
Regarding being "new", hog wash man ! Bet ya that CWD has been around longer than anyone is willing to admit, we just test for now causing all panic and concerns in our community..
and the answer is

David

Quote

Chronic Wasting Disease and the Science in support of the Ban on Baiting and Feeding Deer.
Timothy R. Van Deelen Ph.D. Wisconsin DNR Research
Summary
Reliable science provides support for a ban of baiting and feeding of white-tailed deer to reduce disease risks for
Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD). Peer-reviewed research papers published in reputable scientific journals indicate
the following:
 Deer can get CWD by ingesting something contaminated with the disease prion
 CWD prions may be shed in feces and saliva
 Disease course and symptoms indicate high potential for transmission where deer are concentrated
 Evidence from captive situations indicates that deer can get CWD from highly contaminated
environments.
 Baiting and Feeding causes unnatural concentration of deer
 Reduction of contact through a ban on baiting and feeding is likely very important to eradicating or
containing a CWD outbreak.
 Baiting and feeding continues to put Wisconsin's deer herd at risk to other serious diseases
In addition, experts in CWD, wildlife disease and deer nutrition support bans on baiting and feeding as part of a
comprehensive strategy to prevent and/or manage CWD.
Under a baiting and feeding ban, disease outbreaks are more likely to be smaller in scale and more apt to be
contained or eliminated. With the long CWD incubation period and other factors that make discovery of a new
outbreak difficult, an outbreak that is already widespread when detected because of baiting and feeding may not be
able to be contained or eliminated.
This document provides details and explicit links to the supporting science.
Chronic Wasting

you can argue with him if you want here is his Bio



Associate Professor

217 Russell Labs
1630 Linden Dr
Madison WI 53706

Ph: 608/265-3280

Email: trvandeelen@wisc.edu

More info on Prion's from CDC

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/prions/

Last edited by Speckle55; 12-07-2012 at 01:43 PM.
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  #194  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:38 PM
Donkey Oatey Donkey Oatey is offline
 
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One of the biggest misconceptions that I keep seeing is about CWD. It is not alive, it is not a virus, it is not a bacteria, you can't "kill" it as it is not alive.

It is a prion, a misshaped protein. Sick animals shed these prions, in tears, urine, feces. These proteins can stay in the soil for over 10yrs. The more prions shed, the easier chance that an animal will ingest these prions and they can then start folding the normal cells in the brain and boom more CWD.

If you have sick animals bunched up and come to the same spot over and over and over for feed you are just concentrating the prion in one spot where the likely hood of ingestion is greater.

A field will not have deer in one spot, day after day after day feeding in large groups. Keeps the possible amount of CWD causing prions at a smaller risk. Land is worked up, new crops planted and rotated.

You can't look at this like a disease like the flu or aids or anything. It's not alive.

I don't believe that we need baiting in Alberta.
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  #195  
Old 12-07-2012, 02:34 PM
dgl1948 dgl1948 is offline
 
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Quote:
in Sask Elk 2 of them it was in
Sorry but the elk cases were near Nipawan, a long way from the border. There are several cases if it in deer in this area as well.
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  #196  
Old 12-07-2012, 04:33 PM
Sledhead71 Sledhead71 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speckle55 View Post
and the answer is

David

Quote

Chronic Wasting Disease and the Science in support of the Ban on Baiting and Feeding Deer.
Timothy R. Van Deelen Ph.D. Wisconsin DNR Research
Summary
Reliable science provides support for a ban of baiting and feeding of white-tailed deer to reduce disease risks for
Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD). Peer-reviewed research papers published in reputable scientific journals indicate
the following:
 Deer can get CWD by ingesting something contaminated with the disease prion
 CWD prions may be shed in feces and saliva
 Disease course and symptoms indicate high potential for transmission where deer are concentrated
 Evidence from captive situations indicates that deer can get CWD from highly contaminated
environments.
 Baiting and Feeding causes unnatural concentration of deer
 Reduction of contact through a ban on baiting and feeding is likely very important to eradicating or
containing a CWD outbreak.
 Baiting and feeding continues to put Wisconsin's deer herd at risk to other serious diseases
In addition, experts in CWD, wildlife disease and deer nutrition support bans on baiting and feeding as part of a
comprehensive strategy to prevent and/or manage CWD.
Under a baiting and feeding ban, disease outbreaks are more likely to be smaller in scale and more apt to be
contained or eliminated. With the long CWD incubation period and other factors that make discovery of a new
outbreak difficult, an outbreak that is already widespread when detected because of baiting and feeding may not be
able to be contained or eliminated.
This document provides details and explicit links to the supporting science.
Chronic Wasting

you can argue with him if you want here is his Bio



Associate Professor

217 Russell Labs
1630 Linden Dr
Madison WI 53706

Ph: 608/265-3280

Email: trvandeelen@wisc.edu

More info on Prion's from CDC

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/prions/
Thanks David, but well...... Apples to apples may be a better way to convince me of this science applied to our wonderful province

Wisconsin deer density and climate are no way even close to what we see here in Alberta. In some parts of Wisconsin, deer density is reported at near 100 per sq/mile where in Alberta reports show 1 - 2 per sq/km. Climate as well plays a major role in all aspects of our discussion, Wisconsin has a very mild climate compared to what even the Southern areas of our province experiences during our winter months.

Back to baby steps, Sask has thousands of artificial bait piles, so of course there is an increase in risk of concentration. Now we should also see at least a trend showing an increase in positive testing results in the whitetail deer, but we don't. But them darn floppy eared dumb ones who don't typically visit artificial bait sites do seem to have a higher increase in positive test results.... Humm, must be something in the water then
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  #197  
Old 12-07-2012, 06:30 PM
ishootbambi ishootbambi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikeslayer22 View Post
Question for you ISB if its -20 below end of November a buck is run down from the rut and as most big bucks are mostly nocturnal. He has to eat and needs high protein food to get him through the winter. His choices are a bait pile in th middle of 320 acres of bush that he fed on all year or a wide open 160 acre field where he has to make his self vulnerable during daylight hrs. !
you had it right...then contradicted yourself. a true mature big buck will seldom show himself in daylight ever. sometimes for a dsoe...for food....almost never. some pretty dedicsated guys from saskatchewan have chimed in here saying exactly what i did....including the CWTV leader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKON View Post
CB
The point I'm trying to make is , The information out there re cwd is it fact or alot of ass u mee........ Is cwd a threat in Alberta, don't know..... Is some of the info re cwd wrong, I question it and challenge it...... Does cwd have anything to do with baiting cervids?...... You tell me, I don't buy the arguement.....Is cwd spreading like cancer at an alarming rate as suggested?.... I don't buy that at all, are we just submitting more heads? and Are we just testing further from the border and it appears it's spreading....
Now Do you have the answers to these questions?
hard to imagine you didnt read it yourself in several multi page threads. i dont live and hunt there, but you do....if anyone id think you would have gotten the info straight up, but ill throw you a few answers anyway.

cwd is a small threat everywhere. it was first discovered in clorado in the late 60s. today colorado has several times the deer density that we do. you can add that up yourself.

is some of the info wrong...well no, the info from colorado and wyoming is not....but the bullsnot being peddled by srd certainly is. computer modelling from them showed more tha 80% infection by now with all of albertas deer dead by 2015.

it is spreading to more areas of the province....slowly. is that alarming?....you can decide.

there has been testing from across the province for several years...usually on roadkills. the percentage of infected animals tested has risen very slightly over the last 7 years. total heads tested varies, but percentage levels the answers.


and i wouldnt suggest calling speckle contact at srd. that is the biggets reason for the bullsnot that has happened. that bio is driving her own ego by experimenting on our deer herds. this would be a better place to start...
http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fu...about.timeline

it shows clearly how cwd came here. it has NOT been around forever...it was imported from the US...and exported to korea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey View Post
One of the biggest misconceptions that I keep seeing is about CWD. It is not alive, it is not a virus, it is not a bacteria, you can't "kill" it as it is not alive.

It is a prion, a misshaped protein. Sick animals shed these prions, in tears, urine, feces. These proteins can stay in the soil for over 10yrs. The more prions shed, the easier chance that an animal will ingest these prions and they can then start folding the normal cells in the brain and boom more CWD.

.
now there is a guy that gets it. that is also the answer as to why culling has never been and never can be effective.
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  #198  
Old 12-07-2012, 06:55 PM
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NIKON NIKON is offline
 
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Default Sorry Dale

hard to imagine you didnt read it yourself in several multi page threads. i dont live and hunt there, but you do....if anyone id think you would have gotten the info straight up, but ill throw you a few answers anyway.

ishootsbambi

Excuse me if I didn`t read the right link , and was having problems understanding the Alberta map posted on the sticky, which only provides cases and not numbers tested ,

Hard to imagine you sat back and let me ask the same question over and over yet you only respond after i dig up the answer and make a phone call.....lol...... I even asked a few of the more informative posters try their hand at answering , and got alot of assumptions ..In fact one poster that seems to have quite a reputation on here didn`t think srd was baiting during the cull........ anyways i dug up this, Aug 2012

Solutions (new elements)
- establish ongoing hunter surveillance as a continuing component of F&W budgets.
- open new dialogue with stakeholders, perhaps through AGMAG, to seek novel winter hunting
opportunities that can be tailored to address localized risk around outlier infected deer.
- design and deliver limited removal program in immediate vicinity of infected deer.
Sharpshooters? Aerial delivery?- establish field-level manipulation to target removal of sex/age/species-specific cohort that causes most
disruption of transmission in our habitats. Build on modelling work done at UofA in recent months.
Perhaps use CFB Wainwright ? or WMU 234?
- finalize and adopt the provincial strategy for managing CWD in wild deer.
- expand Hunters-for-Hungry program to facilitate additional harvest in CWD risk areas.
- reopen dialogue with wider public audience regarding CWD.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/FishWildli...w-May-2012.pdf
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  #199  
Old 12-07-2012, 07:04 PM
ishootbambi ishootbambi is offline
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^^^ nikon, if you really dont know and want to learn i am glad to point you in the right direction. given your join date, i can see that you were around here for several multi page threads on this topic. by this point, i believe the majority of those that dont know the facts surrounding cwd just dont want to. one guy in particular...aw heck ill name him....DUFFY...asked for links to real data. i provided him with half a dozen or more. a week later he was posting nonsense again, and i said that i gave him the benefit of the doubt as it wasa lot to read. here we are a year and ahalf later and he still hasnt read it. guys like that have me losing patience trying to discuss facts, so i apologize for lumping you in with them.

anyway...search cwd on this forum and you will find all the links to all the pertinent info surrounding cwd and you will easily see the truth.

some persistent rumors are that it has been around forever, but onlyu recently has it been looked for. the timeline shows very clearly where it came from and when.

some still think culls will make a difference. they never have and never can as explained by donkey oatey.

and one tidbit that i learned on this forum is that cwd testing has been going on for several years on roadkills from all over the province.

seacrh the threads and there is days worth of reading for you to enjoy.

oh, and sorry for leaving you hanging all day....i have a job too.
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  #200  
Old 12-07-2012, 07:12 PM
pre64 pre64 is offline
 
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[QUOTE=buck1979;1740163] (No, Not exactly... I have said that, until I am in a position, that I know where that deer is regularly in daylight, that I will not waste time hunting it, rather continue scouting. Becuase frankly if I dont know where he is spending his daylight hours, I haven't done my homework. The point to that statment is exactly the opposite of how you interperted it. I don't wait, ever.

So if I remove "feeding area" from my comment then I have the correct interpretation. Hardly the exact opposite...Let me put it this way...You locate a shooter buck (trail cam or visually with/without feed/bait) and monitor with trail cams in multiple spots or visually until you locate where he IS travelling in good light, Then you setup and wait - hunt for him over bait or not over bait. The only way I can see you not waiting is if you can walk/stalk right up to the buck and kill him.

[QUOTE=buck1979;1740163] If I hang a trail camera on a post, trail, field edge, or a bait, if I do not get pics of visiuals of my target buck in 48-72 hours, Im in the wrong spot and obviously not in his house. So we scout and move, and figure out the deer, THEN when were in a position where we know where he IS travelling in good light, we will go and hunt him.

Like I said you wait for him to appear - hunt for him. It was an episode of Canada in the Rough (stickers buck) where you made those comments, however you never mentioned "his house" so I took it you were referencing bait. "stickers" was killed over bait. I knew of a 230 inch non-typical, problem was his bedroom was in the middle of a 2 sq. mile solid thick bush "house". So I guess the term "house" is relative to the area the bucks lives in and how to hunt him. He was eventually killed (no bait involved) out on the edge of his "house" after 2 visual sightings (homework) and 3 hunting seasons of waiting/hunting the edge he favored.

[QUOTE=buck1979;1740163] ...I read on this thread with the right bait you can grow a 200" whitetail... I will go with umm... no.

I did not say "with the right bait you can grow a 200" whitetail".
I said "with a few years of feeding prime, genetically superior bucks the right "$tuff", you could grow a 200+ inch Sask WT..."could" being the operative word, as in possibly, not "can" as you quoted me...big difference there.

[QUOTE=buck1979;1740163] You cant grow a wild whitetail period.

Depends on what defines a truly wild whitetail. Once you start placing (not growing/deriving from the ground) feed/bait/minerals etc. repeatedly for whitetails at a specific small spot, the deer that feed there are not 100% wild. Even though they may be legally killed in some provinces/states. Less than 100% wild, the potential thru supplemental artificially placing feed to influence and enhance antler size of certain bucks is a fact. Optimum conditions for antler growth, whether they occur naturally or are created/placed artificially, can produce bigger antlers. For 15 years in the 1980's and 1990's I made available supplemental feed to the local (no hunting zone) deer around my place. Usually had around 75 deer annually. I watched many bucks mature and grow up from age 1 1/2 including a couple of 180 class and a 190 class typical and a 240 class non-typical. At the start I fed them only from Dec thru April. When I started supplemental feeding during May thru July for a few years 2 bucks really put on the inches and grew their best racks, becoming 240 class non-typical and 180 class typical bucks even though we had dry spring-dry summer conditions. When they were young there antlers were nothing special, unlike an 8 1/2 yr. old 190 class typical who was approx. a 100 inch 10 pt buck when he was 1 1/2. Many other bucks also had better than ave. yearly increases in antler growth when I fed them during the growing season. But many bucks never passed the 150-160 class.
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  #201  
Old 12-07-2012, 07:20 PM
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NIKON NIKON is offline
 
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^^^ nikon, if you really dont know and want to learn i am glad to point you in the right direction. given your join date, i can see that you were around here for several multi page threads on this topic. by this point, i believe the majority of those that dont know the facts surrounding cwd just dont want to. one guy in particular...aw heck ill name him....DUFFY...asked for links to real data. i provided him with half a dozen or more. a week later he was posting nonsense again, and i said that i gave him the benefit of the doubt as it wasa lot to read. here we are a year and ahalf later and he still hasnt read it. guys like that have me losing patience trying to discuss facts, so i apologize for lumping you in with them.

anyway...search cwd on this forum and you will find all the links to all the pertinent info surrounding cwd and you will easily see the truth.

some persistent rumors are that it has been around forever, but onlyu recently has it been looked for. the timeline shows very clearly where it came from and when.

some still think culls will make a difference. they never have and never can as explained by donkey oatey.

and one tidbit that i learned on this forum is that cwd testing has been going on for several years on roadkills from all over the province.

seacrh the threads and there is days worth of reading for you to enjoy.

oh, and sorry for leaving you hanging all day....i have a job too.

Hey Dale
Anyways all it would have took was for someone to paste some facts not throw a link up that can take hours to navigate.... just saying
Anyways
This is what i was told today over the phone..... Their efforts haven't been to stop the disease, I think they pretty much know they can't and yes culls aren't the answer........ What she told me and don't quote me on this 100% but they are only trying to slow the disease in hopes of a vaccination .....
Does this make any sense?......... Now my last post showed a renewed interest in Aerial sharp shooters once again..Don't crucify me if I'm reading this wrong... back to that again perhaps???
Anyways I let her know my displeasure in the last cull and what went on....
Do i buy everything she was telling me?...hmmmm... When I asked about elk and deer farming as the tap root to this problem , a bit of silence on the phone .... But she seems pretty confident they have a handle on the industry.... Geez
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  #202  
Old 12-07-2012, 07:46 PM
ishootbambi ishootbambi is offline
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Hey Dale
Anyways all it would have took was for someone to paste some facts :
if thats what she said today, then she is singing a much different tune that just a few years ago.

pm incoming.
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  #203  
Old 12-07-2012, 09:40 PM
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now there is a guy that gets it. that is also the answer as to why culling has never been and never can be effective.
Post 125 by QIsley has a link to a good article that talks all about what cwd is and isn't.
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  #204  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:00 PM
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Sorry but the elk cases were near Nipawan, a long way from the border. There are several cases if it in deer in this area as well.
yes i know where the Elk were found .....i should of put a period after them sorry was writing too fast

David
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  #205  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:07 PM
trophyboy trophyboy is offline
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Not sure how putting the same feed on the ground in a pile that the deer are already eating on a field close by is harmful. In most cases the deer are already herded up eating, urinating, defecating, etc. on the fields they're eating on.

As for hunting over bait, I'm kinda with ISB on that one, the bucks I'm lookin' for are too smart to come in to bait during legal hours so I use other methods to try to get the giants.
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  #206  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:18 PM
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Thanks David, but well...... Apples to apples may be a better way to convince me of this science applied to our wonderful province

Wisconsin deer density and climate are no way even close to what we see here in Alberta. In some parts of Wisconsin, deer density is reported at near 100 per sq/mile where in Alberta reports show 1 - 2 per sq/km. Climate as well plays a major role in all aspects of our discussion, Wisconsin has a very mild climate compared to what even the Southern areas of our province experiences during our winter months.

Back to baby steps, Sask has thousands of artificial bait piles, so of course there is an increase in risk of concentration. Now we should also see at least a trend showing an increase in positive testing results in the whitetail deer, but we don't. But them darn floppy eared dumb ones who don't typically visit artificial bait sites do seem to have a higher increase in positive test results.... Humm, must be something in the water then

the report was writen for Wisconsin and used the reports from Sask/Man/Parks Canada and their material if you read the reports on the link i provided you will understand where he got his material and they all say that higher numbers are not healthy but i am not a scientist

In Alberta we have a spot were we have 170 ungulates per square mile and its like canned hunting as its like artifical feeding and baiting of them just saying

Did you read any of those papers that they list because it will open your eye's and you are assuming alot with no backing or do you have anything to backup what you are saying in your theories

David
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  #207  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:47 PM
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KegRiver KegRiver is offline
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I'm not interested in hunting over bait. Have never done it and don't expect I ever will. But I fail to see where it would be a problem.

No doubt there is something to be said for concentrating animals leading to increased spreading of disease or pathogens.

But having lived around farms all my life and having worked on farms for a good portion of that life I don't see how it will change or add significantly to what happens already.

At present baiting is illegal as we all know. But unintentional baiting if you want to call it that, is a common occurrence. I think a lot of us know that too.

The recent introduction of Grain Tubes is about the biggest bait equivalents I can think of. They are everywhere and the animals know how to get into them.

Then there is the grain piles when farmers run out of bin space. There are the piles left behind when a combine plugs up and has to be cleaned out, in the field. There are the unloading sites like the one next to my house where spilled grain draws in Deer year round. There are leaky bins, bins left open and a host of other man made feed sources that concentrate the Wild animals.

I know others have said all this, and I agree. I simply don't see how a few small grain piles put out for a week each fall is going to come anywhere close to adding significantly to the thousands of man made feed sources that are already out there.

So what about fair chase? Frankly I could care less about fair chase. What a goofy concept. Lets be fair and not bait an animal, instead we will blast it from half a mile away with a hand held canon. Now that's fair chase?

Lets be honest, the only time hunting even comes close to fair chase for the animal is when we hunt with a bow and arrow, with none of the modern accoutrements.

So long as we don't over-harvest, so long as everyone gets an equal chance and so long as the law is satisfied, I don't see a problem.
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  #208  
Old 12-07-2012, 11:32 PM
bobalong bobalong is offline
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hard to imagine you didnt read it yourself in several multi page threads. i dont live and hunt there, but you do....if anyone id think you would have gotten the info straight up, but ill throw you a few answers anyway.

ishootsbambi

Excuse me if I didn`t read the right link , and was having problems understanding the Alberta map posted on the sticky, which only provides cases and not numbers tested ,

Hard to imagine you sat back and let me ask the same question over and over yet you only respond after i dig up the answer and make a phone call.....lol...... I even asked a few of the more informative posters try their hand at answering , and got alot of assumptions ..In fact one poster that seems to have quite a reputation on here didn`t think srd was baiting during the cull........ anyways i dug up this, Aug 2012

Solutions (new elements)
- establish ongoing hunter surveillance as a continuing component of F&W budgets.
- open new dialogue with stakeholders, perhaps through AGMAG, to seek novel winter hunting
opportunities that can be tailored to address localized risk around outlier infected deer.
- design and deliver limited removal program in immediate vicinity of infected deer.
Sharpshooters? Aerial delivery?- establish field-level manipulation to target removal of sex/age/species-specific cohort that causes most
disruption of transmission in our habitats. Build on modelling work done at UofA in recent months.
Perhaps use CFB Wainwright ? or WMU 234?
- finalize and adopt the provincial strategy for managing CWD in wild deer.
- expand Hunters-for-Hungry program to facilitate additional harvest in CWD risk areas.
- reopen dialogue with wider public audience regarding CWD.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/FishWildli...w-May-2012.pdf
Opening new dialogue with stakeholders may be a tough one, after all the lies that were told to some of the local land owners, do you really expect them to believe anything SRD says anymore regarding CWD. Right now SRD trying to access some of the land in 234 that they were allowed to access before (based on lies) could result in some very nasty altercations, (which has a lot to do with why the slaughter by SRD was discontinued, and more hunter tags were allotted.) Another lie by SRD, it was much easier to say their slaughter was being discontinued because of budget cuts, lies, lies and more lies).
They are like the same losers that implemented the gun registry, even though they were told over and over it will not work, they went ahead and wasted millions of dollars anyway, and never did really admit they made a mistake (cowards).
With respect to the slaughter, I am not talking about the actual people who were slaughtering the deer, they were just doing what they were told, I talking about the SOB's who told them to do it.
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  #209  
Old 12-08-2012, 12:06 AM
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Or the bush pushers.

TBark
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  #210  
Old 12-08-2012, 08:56 AM
Sledhead71 Sledhead71 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Speckle55 View Post
the report was writen for Wisconsin and used the reports from Sask/Man/Parks Canada and their material if you read the reports on the link i provided you will understand where he got his material and they all say that higher numbers are not healthy but i am not a scientist

In Alberta we have a spot were we have 170 ungulates per square mile and its like canned hunting as its like artifical feeding and baiting of them just saying

Did you read any of those papers that they list because it will open your eye's and you are assuming alot with no backing or do you have anything to backup what you are saying in your theories

David
I agree that artificial baiting does increase the risk of ungulates to possibly come into close contact with an animal that may carry this or any other disease. But so do all the other man made buffets that already are present in the ungulates natural settings.

I do believe that the small risk with artificial baiting is almost a mute point in the big picture of ungulates contracting any disease. Ungulates bed in the same area, travel the same game trails, feed naturally in the same areas, get water in same areas, winter together, have interaction while breading, feed on hay stacks and grain spoils, does clean fawns, bucks travel in bachelor groups early season, during the breading rituals, bucks will follow estrus scents for miles looking for a hot doe, pre and post rutting activities have males sparing, this list goes on and on really.. So would artificial baiting actually significantly increase the risks of disease to spread, not enough in my mind to loose sleep over.

Biggest concern should be the mismanagement of this precious resource by those who call themselves Bio's and Scientists
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