Will a good bullet help with a bad shot?

[Kurt505]

And will a bigger caliber make up for a bad bullet?

Or I s there a different formula for each individual hunter that would work best?

[Nyksta]

there is no magic wand to make a bad shot a good one.

a fatal shot will quickly stop the blood from pumping oxygen into the animals brain. ie, the large target area of the lungs and heart.

bullet construction can change the way a bullet will quickly fragment and cause large damage on impact or penetrate deeper into tissue before fragmenting and bust through possible bone or wide bodied animals.

a bigger caliber allows for a bigger bullet and more lead/copper and so more material to bust up and do damage.

but in the end, if the bullet, large or not, fragmenting or penetrating, is not aimed at the proper location of the animal, then the animal will only be injured and its other non-vital body functions will be destroyed resulting in potentially a long painful suffering.

all hunters owe it to the animal to make sure that their weapon is functioning properly and they have the skill to use it, the knowledge of the animals anatomy, and the patience to wait for a moment that is within their skill to deliver a well aimed sure-shot to the vital organs. And last but not least, the hunter must be prepared to get the meat out so that it is not spoiled by an unprepared hike out.

[RobTurbo]

If you gut shoot an animal with a .243 or a 338 win mag you will not successfully retrieve the animal. Please do not take 50/50 chances on game. I'm a big fan of high probability shots. Have I messed up a shot, absolutely. Would I have injured and slowly killed more game taking less than opportune shots, I guarantee it.

Big calibers do help with front quartering shots IMO that a smaller caliber would need to wait for broadside shot on...a moose for example again with the. 243 vs 338 winmag

BUT that is very different than a "bad shot"

[BuckCuller]

A lot of people shoot better with less noise and recoil. I've always got by shooting accurately with my 30-06 or 243.
I don't need to shoot 600 yards and the bullet I use will preform fine with the speed it retains at 500 yards.
I'm probably going to choose the 243 for antelope if I get drawn this year over the 30-06.
It's all just personal preference really.
Mind you if I was hunting dangerous game in Africa I would shoot a 375 magnum or bigger for penetration.

[Deo101]

How many time has this been beat to death on here? Are you bored today?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Deo101

How many time has this been beat to death on here? Are you bored today?

Why are you even posting then? Don't read it, it's pretty simple.

[elkdump]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

And will a bigger caliber make up for a bad bullet?

Or I s there a different formula for each individual hunter that would work best?

If you consider how many internet goombahs , carry a large caliber magnum rifle for big game hunting , that cannot even shoot a single shot .22 LR proficiently ???

Then the answer is absolutely , YES

[Desert Eagle]

I don't think they will for sure change the game. However, some difference will be in the chambering/bullet choice for marginal shots. For example....

1. Medium white tail buck shot in the brisket with 7mag, 168 better hinting VLD at 85 meters. We finally tracked him down and finished him off 7 miles later.. same shot with a Nosler Partition would have ended the chase much sooner.

2. 308 on a hard quartered elk or moose. May have to pad up shot. 300 win mag with properly sized premium bullet, still not a questionable shot.

3. Here is one experience of to "hard" of bullet. Whitetail buck large facing straight away about 350 meters. Shot a bit below the vent, 300 win mag with 180 TSX. Bullet penetrated one lung and we finally found him. But it was a long tracking process. I think that the situation would have been much different with the shock factor from a partition type bullet and put him down sooner.

4. Caliber choice. I have been luck enough to try many different calibers over the years. Some are definite hard hitters. 338 federal and 338-06 would surprise most people of their effectiveness.

Not all above animals were taken by me, but I've had the joy of a few rodeos out there.

[Kurt505]

I have a couple of experiences where I think bullet construction would have helped, but contrary to most opinions I would have preferred a bullet that will fragment over one that will penetrate.

Caliber has never played a roll in any shot or situation I've experienced while hunting.

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by Desert Eagle

I don't think they will for sure change the game. However, some difference will be in the chambering/bullet choice for marginal shots. For example....

1. Medium white tail buck shot in the brisket with 7mag, 168 better hinting VLD at 85 meters. We finally tracked him down and finished him off 7 miles later.. same shot with a Nosler Partition would have ended the chase much sooner.

2. 308 on a hard quartered elk or moose. May have to pad up shot. 300 win mag with properly sized premium bullet, still not a questionable shot.

3. Here is one experience of to "hard" of bullet. Whitetail buck large facing straight away about 350 meters. Shot a bit below the vent, 300 win mag with 180 TSX. Bullet penetrated one lung and we finally found him. But it was a long tracking process. I think that the situation would have been much different with the shock factor from a partition type bullet and put him down sooner.

4. Caliber choice. I have been luck enough to try many different calibers over the years. Some are definite hard hitters. 338 federal and 338-06 would surprise most people of their effectiveness.

Not all above animals were taken by me, but I've had the joy of a few rodeos out there.

situation would have been much different if you had chose a better shot than trying to shoot through 3ft of animal before hitting vitals.




I think a good bullet will increase your chances of getting a cleaner kill, but wont substitute for a bad shot. still need to hit vitals to kill.

I shot a WT buck quartering towards me at like 10-15yds with a 139gr GMX 7mm Rem Mag. Bullet hit the front shoulder and i found about a third of it buried in the hide on the far side. Deer ran about 30yds and piled up. If i had used a different bullet, results might have been a longer tracking job.

[HIGHLANDER HUNTING]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

And will a bigger caliber make up for a bad bullet?

Or I s there a different formula for each individual hunter that would work best?

We spoke about bullets, shot placement, and terminal performance in depth in our last podcast- if you're into podcasts, check us out.
https://highlanderhunting.podbean.com Episode 6-building a hunting rifle and ammo selection.

[Salavee]

I think far too much emphasis is placed on ballistic coefficients and hyper velocities. Regardless of construction, a decent, well placed heavy for calibre bullet at moderate terminal velocities will seldom, if ever, disappoint. As they say, there is no replacement for displacement.
I truly believe that.

[Kurt505]

No replacement for displacement. Maybe. But not in my personal experience.

I've gone full circle on this.

Started out with a 308, moved to a 280, then a few different magnums, back down to a 280, and now back down to a 6.5 Creedmoor.

I've never noticed a difference in the performance of any of these cartridges/calibers (and a bunch of cartridges not listed) on big game, but I have noticed a difference in bullets.

In my opinion bullet construction is a good replacement for displacement.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

No replacement for displacement. Maybe. But not in my personal experience.

I've gone full circle on this.

Started out with a 308, moved to a 280, then a few different magnums, back down to a 280, and now back down to a 6.5 Creedmoor.

I've never noticed a difference in the performance of any of these cartridges/calibers (and a bunch of cartridges not listed) on big game, but I have noticed a difference in bullets.

In my opinion bullet construction is a good replacement for displacement.

I'm not going around on this again but I will say this .. If bullet construction is a replacement for displacement, give this a try. Pick your bullet, pick your caliber ,then increase the diameter of that same bullets diameter by 25% in a suitable cartridge and see what happens at closing time.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I'm not going around on this again but I will say this .. If bullet construction is a replacement for displacement, give this a try. Pick your bullet, pick your caliber ,then increase the diameter of that same bullets diameter by 25% in a suitable cartridge and see what happens at closing time.

I'm not doubting it will be more power, I am however doubting it's necessary for ranges of say 500yds or less. I think in the long range game that a magnum case is necessary, but even in the long range game I don't think a larger caliber is necessary.

Damn phone, I keep hitting the automatic words that come up on my keyboard and make crazy sentences. Sorry guys.

[3blade]

Kurt I feel for ya man but you gotta let it go. We've heard this story several times. That bullet didn't go where it needed to. Maybe you were off, or maybe bullets do weird stuff sometimes and this was your time for bad luck. Where exactly it went and why is lost but it hardly represents Barnes performance. Shoot them in the ribs and there is a much better chance of a successful recovery. If they stand up, shoot till they don't. If they don't fall, chase em down and don't let them get out of site (all lessons I've learned the hard way as well). The bullet was only part of that story and I think you gotta focus on what you can learn from the other parts.

Now, as to the original question...no for gut shots and yes for everywhere else. More destroyed tissue means a slower target and more blood loss. Would a 225gr ttsx have penetrated better? Probably. Would it have killed that deer? Who knows. can you shoot as well with more recoil? Most can't. I don't even pretend that I want to shoot anything above 308 win.

As far as the ballistic tips, at 400 its going slow and you aren't gonna get the frag and shock effect. I doubt it would have done any better.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Kurt I feel for ya man but you gotta let it go. We've heard this story several times. That bullet didn't go where it needed to. Maybe you were off, or maybe bullets do weird stuff sometimes and this was your time for bad luck. Where exactly it went and why is lost but it hardly represents Barnes performance. Shoot them in the ribs and there is a much better chance of a successful recovery. If they stand up, shoot till they don't. If they don't fall, chase em down and don't let them get out of site (all lessons I've learned the hard way as well). The bullet was only part of that story and I think you gotta focus on what you can learn from the other parts.

Now, as to the original question...no for gut shots and yes for everywhere else. More destroyed tissue means a slower target and more blood loss. Would a 225gr ttsx have penetrated better? Probably. Would it have killed that deer? Who knows. can you shoot as well with more recoil? Most can't. I don't even pretend that I want to shoot anything above 308 win.

As far as the ballistic tips, at 400 its going slow and you aren't gonna get the frag and shock effect. I doubt it would have done any better.

Ha!

I didn't want to bring up the story again, I hate talking about it as much as you hate hearing about it, but I'm sure buck culler never heard it.

I know better than not to stop shooting until it's dead, but in all honesty I did think it was dead until it was too late. I guess you had to be there. Still kicking myself.

I'm not sure what velocity the bullet was traveling but I'm sure at that distance it was as fast or faster than what a 308 would have been doing at 200yds.

The shot was a broadside hit and did bust the front left shoulder, not a clear rib shot but definitely should have found them.

I agree that the bullet is only part of the equation, I just don't know how big of a roll it played compared to caliber, cartridge, and shot placement. The bullet look like it hit exactly where I was aiming, judging from how the deer was struggling to walk. My personal thought on this particular situation is that the bullet played a big roll in the outcome.


Again I'm not sure of the velocity of a ballistic tip at 400yds out of a 300mag but I think it's still traveling within the performance rating of a ballistic tip.

[58thecat]

Bad shot is just that period!
Need to follow up with a great shot immediately. Nufsaid!

[abbgdr]

No follow up shot on a wounded animal,, every excuse for why not to is as lame as the first shot

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by abbgdr

No follow up shot on a wounded animal,, every excuse for why not to is as lame as the first shot

Even doing something illegal?

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by abbgdr

No follow up shot on a wounded animal,, every excuse for why not to is as lame as the first shot

Hmmmm we all have made a bad first shot, things happen, you need to make the next one count.

You don't make the follow shot up on a marginal first shot? You must be a great hunter/marksman.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Hmmmm we all have made a bad first shot, things happen, you need to make the next one count.

You don't make the follow shot up on a marginal first shot? You must be a great hunter/marksman.

I think what he was suggesting is that there are no excuses for not making a follow up shot.

My case is different, after my first shot the buck dropped dead, or at least I thought he was dead. The thing is, is that I had been stalking up to him for over an hour and at the end of legal shooting time I was still 400yds out so it was take the shot at 400yds or call it a day. I took the shot and the buck dropped flat and didn't move a muscle for 10-15min, then he got up. Now it's too late to legally take another shot, and in all honesty I didn't think it was necessary by the way he was struggling to move. I later called fish and wildlife and asked if I could have taken the follow up shot legally at that time, the answer was no, but he said if I had called in to report it, they may have let it slide after the call. I'm not sure if it would have been legal at that time or they would have just chosen to over look a phone call had one come in over it.

The one rookie mistake I made was I never immediately ran up to the deer, but this buck was one of, if not the biggest bucks I have ever seen, and definitely had more mass than any buck I had ever seen. After the shot and watching him for about 5min I thought for sure it was game over and that's when the adrenaline kicked in and I dropped and layed there for about another 5-10min taking it all in. That's when I got the text "he got up!". My friends had been watching it all unfold from about 3/4 of a mile away, way up on a hilltop. Now all I could do was watch him stumble away, thinking I'll recover him in the morning.

I learned a lesson I thought I already knew

[BuckCuller]

I learned my lesson, unless I'm 100% sure where I hit the deer I close the distance right away and keep an eye on them in case.
I knocked one out one time and he hit the dirt a couple of kicks and layer there.
It was a big buck and I decided there was no hurry and waited for a couple hunting partners. This was on a push in my younger years.
Just as they walked over the hill the buck stands up and takes off like a rocket on rails.
He was out for long enough I could have walked right up to him and put another one in him but thought he was done.
Where his imprint in the snow was it showed I had knocked him behind the head.
I chased him all day and am positive he would have easily survived that one.
Some times stuff happens but I try to prepare now.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I think what he was suggesting is that there are no excuses for not making a follow up shot.

My case is different, after my first shot the buck dropped dead, or at least I thought he was dead. The thing is, is that I had been stalking up to him for over an hour and at the end of legal shooting time I was still 400yds out so it was take the shot at 400yds or call it a day. I took the shot and the buck dropped flat and didn't move a muscle for 10-15min, then he got up. Now it's too late to legally take another shot, and in all honesty I didn't think it was necessary by the way he was struggling to move. I later called fish and wildlife and asked if I could have taken the follow up shot legally at that time, the answer was no, but he said if I had called in to report it, they may have let it slide after the call. I'm not sure if it would have been legal at that time or they would have just chosen to over look a phone call had one come in over it.


The one rookie mistake I made was I never immediately ran up to the deer, but this buck was one of, if not the biggest bucks I have ever seen, and definitely had more mass than any buck I had ever seen. After the shot and watching him for about 5min I thought for sure it was game over and that's when the adrenaline kicked in and I dropped and layed there for about another 5-10min taking it all in. That's when I got the text "he got up!". My friends had been watching it all unfold from about 3/4 of a mile away, way up on a hilltop. Now all I could do was watch him stumble away, thinking I'll recover him in the morning.

I learned a lesson I thought I already knew

Yup been there, dropped the biggest whitetail I have ever seen with my Hawkins, instead of pouring powder etc I got all caught up just to see a deer of a lifetime hobble off...never found him, still haunts me to this day, gagger of a buck is all I can say but what I got out of it and to answer the OP's question, nothing, simply nothing can help with a bad shot, not bullet construction etc other than a timely well placed second shot...things happen.

[Don_Parsons]

Will a bigger caliber make up for a bad bullet, yes & no IMO only.

A bigger caliber "might or could" put you off your shooting abilities compared too lets say a smaller rifle.
Example might be going from a 243 or 308 too something with some kick. Ha...

One might find that middle ground of finding a rifle caliber and cartrage that best suits you.
I'm guessing that most of us work this out with our own compromises.

It probably boils down too finding a rifle and cartrage we can handle.

This is part of the 50/50 or 1 half dozen or the other thing.

The bad bullet thing makes me ask this,,, bad bullet as in the size of the caliber of it,,, or the quality of construction of the bullet.

There's a fellow in Australia that is a wealth of information when it comes too caliber too bullet that I'll post a link to so you can read about how each caliber rifle with their endless bullets and how they perform on many kinds of game all around the world.

Hopefully the Web Forum will allow you too choose what your looking for between caliber and bullet.

Your next question is,,, is there a difference between the individual of what works... I again in IMO only would like too say yes.

I can only speak for my self on what works for me. Doo Noo what others do as they find their own path in the mix.

This forum is what I used too find the caliber of rifle and bullets i choose too shot,,, the distance that they will best perform at, and the critters I might go after here in our Americas.

Click on the posted link at your choosing,,, scroll down too "Cartrage Research" and open the link too view the many calibers that were tested.

Keep your own view & mind open with a grain of salt since nothing in the critter harvests is written 100% in stone,,, many variables attached to each harvest.

PS: I ask that you first read the authors introduction as he has culled multi thousands of critters around the world,,, this might assist you in getting wizer too his view & take.

Again,,, what might not of worked for him dosen't mean it would 100% not work in our own application.

The variables are always there.

Sorry for the long post, I hope that this helps you find the answers your looking for.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/

Don

You can click on the magnifying glass "search" and put in the caliber of rifle you might be interested in.

It will take you too many many calibers of your choosing.
It will cover factory loads & reload advantages too.

[sns2]

Nothing lives with a hole in its lungs!

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

[elkhunter11]

A bullet that fragments might help with a bad shot if you are lucky and a fragment veers off into a vital organ or artery, but it's just as likely to turn a good shot into a bad shot by hitting bone, and not reaching the vitals. A larger caliber may or may not help, because the expanded bullet is what makes the wound, not the unfired bullet, so a smaller caliber bullet may actually cause a larger wound channel.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

A bullet that fragments might help with a bad shot if you are lucky and a fragment veers off into a vital organ or artery, but it's just as likely to turn a good shot into a bad shot by hitting bone, and not reaching the vitals. A larger caliber may or may not help, because the expanded bullet is what makes the wound, not the unfired bullet, so a smaller caliber bullet may actually cause a larger wound channel.

The gist of your last sentence escapes me but from what I have seen, a bullet that sheds a few fragments will help with a good shot as well... much more so than having the whole bullet embedded in a tree on the off side.
With a vital zone of a couple of sq ft. or more on an Elk or Moose any half decent bullet will do the job if given a proper chance. Overthinking a bullet's terminal performance hasn't killed anything that I know of... be it from a larger calibre ,or smaller, such as a bullet that deflects off bone. That may not be the bullets fault as there are poor bullet/calibre and terminal velocity choices for particular jobs that do require a bit of forethought.
Just my take.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

The gist of your last sentence escapes me but from what I have seen, a bullet that sheds a few fragments will help with a good shot as well... much more so than having the whole bullet embedded in a tree on the off side.
With a vital zone of a couple of sq ft. or more on an Elk or Moose any half decent bullet will do the job if given a proper chance. Overthinking a bullet's terminal performance hasn't killed anything that I know of... be it from a larger calibre ,or smaller, such as a bullet that deflects off bone. That may not be the bullets fault as there are poor bullet/calibre and terminal velocity choices for particular jobs that do require a bit of forethought.
Just my take.

The gist of my last sentence is, that a smaller diameter bullet may expand more, and actually create a larger wound channel than a larger diameter bullet that doesn't expand as much. Therefore simply using a larger caliber bullet, may not be a benefit in all situations.

[Salavee]

Understood. Therin lies the trade-off between rapid expansion and resultant velocity loss and penetration/retained momentum.
It was the "unfired" word that prompted my response regarding the last sentence. Obviously a typo. All good.