living off the grid??

[roger]

anybody here do the wind/solar power/inverter for a fulltime home or weekend cabin? the web is full of suppliers and the costs are relatively easy to calculate based on complexity. obviously the initial costs are higher but should payback every month you dont have a bill. with so many high performance DC components like washing machines, LED lighting and DC refridgeraters/deepfreezes now available, it only help to warrant the expense.
with the electric and natgas suppliers doing rate hikes whenever the sun goes behind a cloud, it seems a logical when setting up a home
If you have this, did it change the way you live?
doing maintenance, replacing batteries, initial expenses vs lifecycle costing, etc)?
would you do it again?
do you want to do it?
thanks roger

[Map Maker]

I am in the process of making a off the grid cabin right now. It is quite amazing what is out there and how you can calculate anything you need. input vs output.

I am wiring my cabin now to use battery power with an AC invertor with a couple DC plugs.
I probably cant tell you anything you havent already read but hopefully I'll have some insight this summer.

good luck and keep us posted if you do a project.

[catnthehat]

My kid brother lives in the bush fulltime.
he's hooked up with solar panels, one of those windmill/generator thingys, and gelcell batteries.
he also has 12volt electric, 110 ( portable power plant) and propane lighting and heaters.

he goes through about 100 gallons of water for washing clothews etc, and bath water a week, but has a well on his trapline also.

he's got internet ( sat/cell assisted) .

We call him the "hi-tech red neck" !

He lives on a trapline, but is only about 20 minutes from town.

Cat

[Grizzly Adams]

We've got an electrician in Didsbury, who went the windmill route. It isn't cheap and you have to be willing to put some constraints on your lifestyle, to make it work.
Grizz

[209x50]

Our new home is geothermal. We have a nat gas stove and the a high eff gas heater to top up the domestic hot water from the geothermal mass tank. We get 100 F from the geothermal and the gas heater takes it to 140F. We average less that $30/month for gas and most of that is service fees, I think we have used 3 gigajoules so far.
We looked at some form of electric generation to get off that teat as well but nothing works this far north (solar etc) and the batteries to store generation for us would have been 18K and you don't buy batteries just once. I'm studying wind but I don't think we have enough. There is a big life change to live with solar power up here and I didn't feel like I wanted to live like some hippie in a commune especially when it is all far more expensive than hooking to the grid. Even with over 10K for my powerline.
Power has been $200 and $290 the last two bills. 4000 sq' of living space it is a bungalow with a full walkout. Last year we had a modified bilevel, 900 sq' footprint, conventional build 1 year old and for the same 2 months power was just over $300/month and gas was over $200/month.
Yeah I'm happy.

[willy]

What was the cost of the geothermal? How deep do they run the lines i never though ground would be that much heat there to get 100f. On wind power the 18k in batteries how long would that give you storage? In winter here it can be -30 for a week and no wind so you need good storage capacity.

[rugatika]

Has anyone looked at solar collectors? I was thinking of using one with in floor heating as an experiment for a garage to see what it was capable of. Haven't really researched it yet to see if it would be viable in our climate yet though.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by willy

What was the cost of the geothermal? How deep do they run the lines i never though ground would be that much heat there to get 100f. On wind power the 18k in batteries how long would that give you storage? In winter here it can be -30 for a week and no wind so you need good storage capacity.

40 thousand, included hydronic floor, forced air, ducting, air conditioning, HVRs for the bathrooms, emergency back up heat. My field has 12 loops 125 feet deep.
All you need from the dirt is 4 C the rest comes from the heat pump, that produces heat when compressing and chills when expanding.
The batteries had and estimated service life of 12 years with proper maint and storage.

[archdlx]

Have you gents any links to Canadian companies that sell these off grid supplies?

Thanks,
LeRoy.

[Map Maker]

hey archdlx:

Here is a guy outside edmonton that has panels and led, I havent dealt with him but seems to have a good business. He even runs day courses.
http://www.solarpanel.ca/#

I got a catalogue from some company in the states "Backcountry Energy" or something and it has a great catalouge and gives all the info you need about setting up a system. He sent it free when i asked him a couple questions.
I'll pm you info if I find the catalogue.

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by Map Maker

hey archdlx:

Here is a guy outside edmonton that has panels and led, I havent dealt with him but seems to have a good business. He even runs day courses.
http://www.solarpanel.ca/#

I got a catalogue from some company in the states "Backcountry Energy" or something and it has a great catalouge and gives all the info you need about setting up a system. He sent it free when i asked him a couple questions.
I'll pm you info if I find the catalogue.

if you find the info for backcountry energy can you send it to me too please..

[wsmman]

we are doing geothermal on our new house. i'm going with horizontal loops about 50 feet deep 150m long. with wood back-up heat.

My neighbour is putting up two huge wind generators to supply power for his plastic business. huge windmills, im quite sure about 150ft high in the 10-30 KW size. they cost in the range of 50-60 thousand so 10K to put power to my house aint looking to bad.

[bingo1010]

Originally Posted by wsmman

we are doing geothermal on our new house. i'm going with horizontal loops about 50 feet deep 150m long. with wood back-up heat.

My neighbour is putting up two huge wind generators to supply power for his plastic business. huge windmills, im quite sure about 150ft high in the 10-30 KW size. they cost in the range of 50-60 thousand so 10K to put power to my house aint looking to bad.

you wouldn't need mills that big, half that size would be good. i think you would be looking at about 20 g to get set up. you paid 10 g for the power install, then get screwed over by the power company for 200 - 300 per month for ever..2500 - 3600 per year adds up. what kills me is that you pay to install power lines and all, you don't own any of it, then on top of it they fcuk a guy over with the bills. talk about a good system!!

[209x50]

Originally Posted by bingo1010

you wouldn't need mills that big, half that size would be good. i think you would be looking at about 20 g to get set up. you paid 10 g for the power install, then get screwed over by the power company for 200 - 300 per month for ever..2500 - 3600 per year adds up. what kills me is that you pay to install power lines and all, you don't own any of it, then on top of it they fcuk a guy over with the bills. talk about a good system!!

Very true but if you generate enough the power runs both ways on that line! I'm looking into a 5k windmill/generator. As long as I can sell my excess back into the grid I should be OK. I still need to finish out the wind study thoug to see if I get enough.

[Vindalbakken]

Here is a Canadian company selling green. Not sure how their prices compare.

http://www.canadiantirepower.ca/en/index.php

[bingo1010]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Very true but if you generate enough the power runs both ways on that line! I'm looking into a 5k windmill/generator. As long as I can sell my excess back into the grid I should be OK. I still need to finish out the wind study thoug to see if I get enough.

it is actually law in alberta that the grid must take the power that you generate, basically what happens is you power mete turns backwards

[Iron Brew]

Originally Posted by bingo1010

it is actually law in alberta that the grid must take the power that you generate, basically what happens is you power mete turns backwards

I believe you have to run the power through a conditioner to make the sinusoidal waves you generate match the ones in the power line precisely. This isn't cheap, AFAIK. You must also have an automatic disconnect in case of power failure. They don't want the poor linesman getting zapped trying to fix the lines...

[bingo1010]

Originally Posted by Iron Brew

I believe you have to run the power through a conditioner to make the sinusoidal waves you generate match the ones in the power line precisely. This isn't cheap, AFAIK. You must also have an automatic disconnect in case of power failure. They don't want the poor linesman getting zapped trying to fix the lines...

true...true...and true

[bsmitty27]

I got a acerage 35 min east of edmonton and am looking at doing a geothermal system and possibly doing a windmill attached to the grid.

My questions are as follows:

Is is much more expensive to add a windmill system at a later date rather than when running initial power?

what is the cost of connecting to the grid?

In alberta do the Power companies HAVE TO pay for power you supply to get grid and at what price?

what would be a guestimate at a geothermal system including trenching and air exchange cost for a 2500 square house plus 24x36 garage?

What are some good companies to contact about geothermal and wind power.

Thank you Brad

[roger]

Originally Posted by Map Maker

Here is a guy outside edmonton that has panels and led, I havent dealt with him but seems to have a good business. He even runs day courses.
http://www.solarpanel.ca/#

thanks to mapmaker,
the wife and I attended this course on Oct 18..
Shane has it moving in a fast factfilled laff a minute meeting. if you have any bit of technibabble in your blood, youll eat it up!
Im just hungry for more.
i dont know why i havent done it already.
if you have a hunting cabin and want temporary power...he has the right stuff!

[roger]

Originally Posted by bsmitty27

I got a acerage 35 min east of edmonton and am looking at doing a geothermal system and possibly doing a windmill attached to the grid.

My questions are as follows:

Is is much more expensive to add a windmill system at a later date rather than when running initial power?

what is the cost of connecting to the grid?

In alberta do the Power companies HAVE TO pay for power you supply to get grid and at what price?

what would be a guestimate at a geothermal system including trenching and air exchange cost for a 2500 square house plus 24x36 garage?

What are some good companies to contact about geothermal and wind power.

Thank you Brad

thats alot in one mouthful, trenching is the cheapest part
geothermal IMO is not worth it 40K for the hole, a 220 pump that moves water 24/7...electricity will kill ya. a watt is a watt is a watt, a joule is a joule is a joule. propane may be expensive than nat gas, but you dont a pay a monthly line fee and only pay for what you consume.
wind is unpredictable, not consistant so mills should be an additive to the system and not the core of it.
IMO...the grid tie is a waste of effort, time, money...get away from the grid altogether, put YOUR solar panels and windmills on YOUR system on YOUR land to power YOUR life.
stand alone

[Vindalbakken]

Regarding the cost of operating geothermal - Running natural gas with a delivered cost of $8.00/GJoule through an 84% efficient furnace the cost of 1 million BTU's of heat is $10.05. Operating a heat pump with a 4x conversion factor using electricity with a delivered cost of $0.16/KWh the cost of 1 million BTU's of heat in your house is $11.71.

Be sure you understand what you are buying when putting in geothermal. When I built 20 years ago I tried to find a contractor to install geothermal and it was not possible to do so. If I were to build today I would be installing geothermal heating. But it would not be because I was going to save money - because I wouldn't. If the energy marketing remains the same as it is today it will cost you more money to run the geothermal system.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by bsmitty27

I got a acerage 35 min east of edmonton and am looking at doing a geothermal system and possibly doing a windmill attached to the grid.

My questions are as follows:

Is is much more expensive to add a windmill system at a later date rather than when running initial power?

what is the cost of connecting to the grid?

In alberta do the Power companies HAVE TO pay for power you supply to get grid and at what price?

what would be a guestimate at a geothermal system including trenching and air exchange cost for a 2500 square house plus 24x36 garage?

What are some good companies to contact about geothermal and wind power.

Thank you Brad

You do realize that it is'nt as simple as tying into the grid and getting payed.
You have to provide portective relays to disconnect your system from the grid if things go bad on the grid, or with your system.
And oh ya the relays do need calibrating on a very regular basis.

Just playing devils advocate.

[Vindalbakken]

Dick, do you know what the cost of a grid tie setup is? Last I checked they were ballparking 2500-3000. Is it much different now?

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Dick, do you know what the cost of a grid tie setup is? Last I checked they were ballparking 2500-3000. Is it much different now?

I'm on the power production side of things, And therefore have know idea what things cost on the small end. Heck I doubt I really know the costs on the big end either.

What I do know are power systems, and their design criteria, and some of the regulatory requirements surrounding it.

[Vindalbakken]

Thanks Dick.

[roger]

one problem is , as i see it...tyeing to the grid and producing power for it only reduces your consumption costs, youll still be paying line rent transformer rent, fees and anything else they tack on to it.
Canadian Geographic had an article in it that said Ontario was paying producers 40 cents per kwh, (we pay approx 10c now), even at 4x market value it was unfeaseable to pursue for the home owner. the average home uses 7kw a day. a 7kw system is about $20K. the average alternative enrgy house takes a 10 year payback at $160 per month. its already alot of money to dump and you have to get an even bigger system,when tyeing in it needs conditoners, automatic disconnects, otherwise youll fry the lineman. i heard a lot of numbers at the seminar, but i seem to recall an additional $10,000

[SolarPanel]

Originally Posted by roger

one problem is , as i see it...tyeing to the grid and producing power for it only reduces your consumption costs, youll still be paying line rent transformer rent, fees and anything else they tack on to it.
Canadian Geographic had an article in it that said Ontario was paying producers 40 cents per kwh, (we pay approx 10c now), even at 4x market value it was unfeaseable to pursue for the home owner. the average home uses 7kw a day. a 7kw system is about $20K. the average alternative enrgy house takes a 10 year payback at $160 per month. its already alot of money to dump and you have to get an even bigger system,when tyeing in it needs conditoners, automatic disconnects, otherwise youll fry the lineman. i heard a lot of numbers at the seminar, but i seem to recall an additional $10,000

Hi Roger, thanks for attending the seminar on the weekend, Sorry for the amount of info at the seminar as I try to give as much as I can to those people attending...anyhow to to set your facts a little bit staighter the average home in alberta uses 20Kw per day...if you wish to be grid tied with a solarpanel system one should be looking at 1500 watts of solar to make any differnece in your power bill..on a nice sunny summer day you may make 7Kw from the sun...so now you have reduced you power bill to a net 13Kw/day for that day...or have saved yourself $.70 (7*$.10/kw)...(I asume this is the rate people are being charged as I haven't seen a power bill in 5 years).
A 1500watt grid tie system including solarpanels, grid-tie inverter, mounts, hardware, cable, discounts and installtion would cost $15K +/- as a rough estimate...

[heidebill]

I Have been keen on Off Grid Living, but it seems much more economically viable now that 25 years ago when I got interested in Off Grid Living
I presently have a Solar Hot Water panel, Heating my shop floor, Concrete infloor heating, it does not provide me with enough heat "yet". It is a 4X8 sheet with copper tubes painted black, I get about a 4' increase in water temp, it is pumped, I am working on a 10' Satelite Dish which I am going to use as a Parabolic reflector to a collector, We'll see hot much I get get out of that.
Right now I am only using Solar to heat the Shop, 30'X40' 12' Ceiling

Does anyone have an existing system they are using for heating their floor?
Bill

[roadkill]

Wow, I'm glad to see so many of you guys going this route. Mrs. Roadkill and I are still renting, but we have big plans for when we buy in a few years. We're in a great spot for geothermal heating, for instance. I've been looking into those helix-style wind turbines because they can operate on even a small breeze and don't need the same space as the fan-style. Oh, and they're safer for birds, too.

But get this: In Québec, you're not allowed to disconnect from the grid. At least, not in a major urban area. And unlike Ontario, if you make more power than you use here, you can't sell it to Hydro-québec. So, even if I'm using *nothing* from H-Q, I'm still paying their minimum monthly bill. How stupid is that? Man, sometimes I think we own the market on institutionalised corruption over here.