Bus accidents and the lack of seat belts

[MrDave]

Another injured student airlifted after a bus accident. No word yet on the cause of the accident, but having rode one every day of my school life I can see many ways it could have happened.
I've been bounced over seats, out of seats, seen others get smashed off the roof, and more. I had a classmate's daughter killed in a bus crash.
I am one who believes busses need seat belts. Who is going to monitor the use is always brought up. My 5 year old knows she can't hold herself still because of a simple rear ender. She will tell you quite clearly that putting a seat belt on is a must, and does it automatically before the vehicle moves.
Then the cost per death is brought up, yet all the costs of caring for the injured children is ignored. Parents are off work, taking their child to physiotherapy, doctors and lawyers.
Plus someone always has to throw in the Simon Birch movie. If the bus goes into water whose undoing the belts?
Maybe some need to go to Rimbey and meet the poor fellow who survived the gravel truck hitting his bus. Thrown onto the pavement.
The reality is that the manufacturing industry doesn't want it because of the cost. Plus it would then be an admittance to the past reports of their cover ups.

[6.5 shooter]

Having ridden a school bus for 11 years as a passenger and as a driver for 5 years. I find your statement to be miss leading or ....

Bounced of the roof and flung over seats ?? really ?? then you must have had the the worst drivers ever in the industry.

Seat belts are already on the buses they will be (are) a nightmare. Most are used as weapons by older kids now. Belting in 50 kids while trying to keep a schedule will be next to impossible. We as drivers make less then minimum wage yet we carry the most precious cargo of all..... Yet we have to keep track of 50 screaming kids, hockey Mom's and Dad's who have little to no respect for the bus or the rules of the road as long as they get little Johnny or Jane to the rink on time. Parents running the red stop lights and warning signals. Traffic which cuts you off if there is a 1/2 car length lead in front of the bus. POed because we are only allowed to do 90 KM on the highway so they pass on double solid lines, hills etc. But i am sure seat belts will solve all these issues.

But by all means make your kids belt up on the bus...as long as YOU are willing to ride on the bus and be sure everyone is belted in and you do it for free.

[CaberTosser]

Seat belts are in highway buses, they were in the buses I travelled in around Ft Mac from the airport to camp. If those buses have them why on earth don't school buses? Its a no-brainer. My 10 year old son leaves the car door open intentionally until he's belted himself in so that the driver won't get underway until he's secured.

[bat119]

I drove a disabled persons bus in the early 80's it was the driver's responsibility to make sure all passengers were buckled up before the bus moved after that the passengers were on their own.

All I can say is good luck trying to keep kids buckled up

[DisplacedCaper]

I drove for Calgary Transit for 10 years and had signed on many school runs. It hits me a little whenever I read about a serious accident involving a school bus, having driven and cared for many kids going to school. Seat belts are a great idea, but the driver won’t be able to monitor that everyone is buckled up and stays buckled up while driving safely. The answer would be for schools to assign an aid of some sort. Or pay the charter company to have an aid or attendant. And there lies a whole pile of monetary problems about who’s going to pay for what and arguments over liability etc.
Even when driving the younger kids who would listen to the rules mostly, there were issues from time to time and the schools did absolutely nothing, nor did transit for that matter. Not to mention Jr. high/high school buses were like the thunder dome. An utter nightmare most days. I could fill pages typing out scenarios where it was a struggle to keep them inside the bus while it was moving, let alone buckled up.
Hope the student and driver that are still in the hospital from the latest one are ok.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bigwoodsman]

If the kids won't wear the seat belts or are causing a disturbance. Then don't allow them on the bus. If mom or dad is required to drive them to and from school for a semester or longer they'll get the message.

With todays technology it should be easy to see who has or hasn't fastened their seat belt.

BW

[leeelmer]

My father is and has been a bus driver for close to 30 years.
Problem#1
Is the bus driver responsible for adjusting and properly buckling each child?
Problem#2
Booster seats, well most small kids need them to be buckled in your car right?
DOes the school supply them? or do the parents have to buy extra ones?
Problem#3
School bus driver going to be held liable for a child unbuckling one? Or not adjusting one properly?
Problem#4
Do we have to hire a attendant to ride the bus with the kids and properly buckle each of them? Cost???
Problem#5
Is it a problem? Is there so many accidents a year for the amount of miles driven that this is a issue? Or are we creating a fix for a problem not even here?
Is there proof that in each case a seat belt would have had a impact in reducing the injury or death? Hard to come to a answer for this.
Problem#6
Current school busses and there seats we not currently designed for belts, so do we just replace every school bus on the road?
You can't just drill holes in the walls and floor of busses and bolt in seat belts, the structure of the bus needs to be designed for it(and they are not)

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by leeelmer

My father is and has been a bus driver for close to 30 years.
Problem#1
Is the bus driver responsible for adjusting and properly buckling each child?
Problem#2
Booster seats, well most small kids need them to be buckled in your car right?
DOes the school supply them? or do the parents have to buy extra ones?
Problem#3
School bus driver going to be held liable for a child unbuckling one? Or not adjusting one properly?
Problem#4
Do we have to hire a attendant to ride the bus with the kids and properly buckle each of them? Cost???
Problem#5
Is it a problem? Is there so many accidents a year for the amount of miles driven that this is a issue? Or are we creating a fix for a problem not even here?
Is there proof that in each case a seat belt would have had a impact in reducing the injury or death? Hard to come to a answer for this.
Problem#6
Current school busses and there seats we not currently designed for belts, so do we just replace every school bus on the road?
You can't just drill holes in the walls and floor of busses and bolt in seat belts, the structure of the bus needs to be designed for it(and they are not)

The buses I took in Ft Mac the driver would walk up and down for a seat belt check, and that was with only adults on board company charters.

The seats in cars & trucks have weight sensors that alert a notice on the dash if the corresponding belt is not buckled, this would be pretty easy to wire a map with a seat display of the entire bus up to. Holler at the offending kid(s) to buckle up and then hit the gas once they've complied.

Having the belts adjusted by the kids should be fine, at least the belts are there. This is assuming regular kids, special needs of course would require driver help or an attendant or whatever.

Wearing a seat belt is the law, of all the options available I'm astounded its bypassed for school buses.

Do bus companies &/or drivers figure liability for adjusting kids seat belts would open up too much liability so they'd rather the kids not be bucked at all? Ridiculous.

Engineering seats and seat belts is not an insurmountable task, remember that the motor coach buses already have them, this is neither rocket science nor akin to curing cancer..... literally millions of them already exist.

All I saw was a pile of simplistic questions with brutally easy solutions. Can that be all that's holding up the safety of kids on public transport? Its mind-boggling. Of course there would be transition time for replacing and/or retrofitting the existing bus fleets but the time to start was yesterday...

[leeelmer]

I think that cost is the largest concern.
The bus seats that are there will not work with seat belts. That means all school busses will have to have new seats with seat belts installed. There are about 10 different manufactures of school busses. With different models of busses. So it is not just design one seat, you have to design many seats. And prove that they are safe. No not insurmountable but it is a large cost and time consuming. Cost for Alberta alone would be in the 10s of millions. Also, we are a very very small market for companies like Blue Bird bus,in the USA in California alone has more school busses than all of Canada, so a change there would bring a change here, not the other way around. This has been debated at the school board level and questions asked to bus manufactures, and they have all said that if there is a new law requiring it, then something will change, until then nothing will change. I have discussed this with my father(school bus driver) and it comes up about every 5 years or so, and nothing has changed as the cost is to large.

[huntsfurfish]

There was a tv show about this a while back. Answered most if not all questions. And showed it could be done but would cost a bit of money.
Wish I could remember who/what show it was.
Anybody know the one I am talking about? W5?

[The Cook]

Originally Posted by leeelmer

I think that cost is the largest concern.
The bus seats that are there will not work with seat belts. That means all school busses will have to have new seats with seat belts installed. There are about 10 different manufactures of school busses. With different models of busses. So it is not just design one seat, you have to design many seats. And prove that they are safe. No not insurmountable but it is a large cost and time consuming. Cost for Alberta alone would be in the 10s of millions. Also, we are a very very small market for companies like Blue Bird bus,in the USA in California alone has more school busses than all of Canada, so a change there would bring a change here, not the other way around. This has been debated at the school board level and questions asked to bus manufactures, and they have all said that if there is a new law requiring it, then something will change, until then nothing will change. I have discussed this with my father(school bus driver) and it comes up about every 5 years or so, and nothing has changed as the cost is to large.

It's all about the money. Our public school superintendent makes $225,000.00 a year to look after 6 schools, he might have to take a pay cut for seat belts.

[RandyBoBandy]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

There was a tv show about this a while back. Answered most if not all questions. And showed it could be done but would cost a bit of money.
Wish I could remember who/what show it was.
Anybody know the one I am talking about? W5?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcnSpQdeG3MIs this what you are referring to ??

[I-Love-Eyes]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Having ridden a school bus for 11 years as a passenger and as a driver for 5 years. I find your statement to be miss leading or ....

Bounced of the roof and flung over seats ?? really ?? then you must have had the the worst drivers ever in the industry.

Seat belts are already on the buses they will be (are) a nightmare. Most are used as weapons by older kids now. Belting in 50 kids Or 72 or even 84 kids (with some newer buses)while trying to keep a schedule will be next to impossible. We as drivers make less then minimum wage yet we carry the most precious cargo of all..... Yet we have to keep track of 50 screaming kids, hockey Mom's and Dad's who have little to no respect for the bus or the rules of the road as long as they get little Johnny or Jane to the rink on time. Parents running the red stop lights and warning signals. Traffic which cuts you off if there is a 1/2 car length lead in front of the bus. POed because we are only allowed to do 90 KM on the highway so they pass on double solid lines, hills etc.HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!!

But i am sure seat belts will solve all these issues.

Or 72 or even 84 kids (with some newer buses)

But by all means make your kids belt up on the bus...as long as YOU are willing to ride on the bus and be sure everyone is belted in and you do it for free.

FOR SURE!!!

Also, the cost of retrofitting buses would fall to the OWNERS and not every bus in Alberta is owned by big companies like GOLDEN ARROW OR SOUTHLAND OR STOCK There are a ton of school bus owners who have one or two buses that run under contract with school divisions, and I can guarantee that they don't make enough money to retrofit all those seats.

[I-Love-Eyes]

Originally Posted by leeelmer

My father is and has been a bus driver for close to 30 years.
Problem#1
Is the bus driver responsible for adjusting and properly buckling each child?
Problem#2
Booster seats, well most small kids need them to be buckled in your car right?
DOes the school supply them? or do the parents have to buy extra ones?
Problem#3
School bus driver going to be held liable for a child unbuckling one? Or not adjusting one properly?
Problem#4
Do we have to hire a attendant to ride the bus with the kids and properly buckle each of them? Cost???
Problem#5
Is it a problem? Is there so many accidents a year for the amount of miles driven that this is a issue? Or are we creating a fix for a problem not even here?
Is there proof that in each case a seat belt would have had a impact in reducing the injury or death? Hard to come to a answer for this.
Problem#6
Current school busses and there seats we not currently designed for belts, so do we just replace every school bus on the road?
You can't just drill holes in the walls and floor of busses and bolt in seat belts, the structure of the bus needs to be designed for it(and they are not)

I agree! This is my dads 50th year driving a school bus! I spare for him on occasion

[sewerrat]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

There was a tv show about this a while back. Answered most if not all questions. And showed it could be done but would cost a bit of money.
Wish I could remember who/what show it was.
Anybody know the one I am talking about? W5?

Was this the one you’re thinking of ?
https://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/20...ool-bus-safety

[CaberTosser]

I'm curious how long a typical school bus stays in service, a decade perhaps?

A school bus has 72 seats, if each seat cost an additional $225 over the cost of existing seats then that would be another $16,200 tacked on to the cost of a bus. Divided into a decade that's $1620 more a year or $135 more per month for the cost of each bus. $135 per month divided into each student is $1.88 per month/ per student for the luxury of kids not being sent sailing around the cab of the bus in the event of a collision, or straight out the window in the event of a rollover. Of course if the bus is only at half capacity then the cost doubles to $3.75 per month per student at which point its preferable for the kids to be sent out the window to their death or disfigurement, that's 187.5 extra cents we're talking about after all!!

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

If the kids won't wear the seat belts or are causing a disturbance. Then don't allow them on the bus. If mom or dad is required to drive them to and from school for a semester or longer they'll get the message.

With todays technology it should be easy to see who has or hasn't fastened their seat belt.

BW

Nice idea but would never work. We (drivers) are unable to even raise our voices to the little darlings let alone GASP maybe touch one as we did up their lap belt, sexual assault anyone ??? As for kicking kids off the bus well it ain't like the good old days, we have to have a chat with the school, the carrier and the parents....never gonna happen.

[dfarms11]

Just for some clarification. Seats on school buses without seatbelts are designed for compartmentalization. What that means is in the event of a collision, the student hits the seat and are protected by the seat in front of them. It acts like a shock absorber.

It has been proven that there have been more injuries due to seatbelts on buses than from buses without seatbelts. That's why compartmentalization is the preferred choice right now by the professionals. That is the people that make student safety their priority. They look deeply into this and review it all the time.



As a father with kids on a school bus I understand all the questions posted here. However, as a school bus driver I also know that there are smarter people out there with more knowledge than even I do, that do their due diligence to make sure my kids have the safest bus ride they can.

[260 Rem]

Kids today grow up buckled up. They know how and will scold adults they see failing to use their harness.

[gunluvr]

The mandatory installation of seat belts in new cars was no doubt dubbed to be an enormous cost effective burden to the automotive industry in 1966. Somehow the automakers overcame this gigantic problem and today they can't invent enough new ways to make cars safer and use that as selling points to compete with each other. Yet school bus companies can't find a way to make the same thing work.

[gunluvr]

Originally Posted by dfarms11

Just for some clarification. Seats on school buses without seatbelts are designed for compartmentalization. What that means is in the event of a collision, the student hits the seat and are protected by the seat in front of them. It acts like a shock absorber.

It has been proven that there have been more injuries due to seatbelts on buses than from buses without seatbelts. That's why compartmentalization is the preferred choice right now by the professionals. That is the people that make student safety their priority. They look deeply into this and review it all the time.



As a father with kids on a school bus I understand all the questions posted here. However, as a school bus driver I also know that there are smarter people out there with more knowledge than even I do, that do their due diligence to make sure my kids have the safest bus ride they can.

For the argument for "compartmentalization" to hold any water, it should also apply to cars, trucks, suv's and vans. Without seatbelts, in the event of a collision, the passenger hits the seat in front of them, or the dash, or the steering wheel. The only difference between cars and buses is the amount of "compartments". And what about the kids in the front seat of the bus? That little bar in front of them gonna save their life?

[I-Love-Eyes]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

I'm curious how long a typical school bus stays in service, a decade perhaps?

All depends on the county or city policies. In my county (Parkland), they can only be in service for 18 years max.

And an FYI for anyone who wants to know, school buses are the ONLY "commercial" vehicles on the road that MUST have an inspection done EVERY 6 MONTHS!

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by RandyBoBandy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcnSpQdeG3MIs this what you are referring to ??

Yes thats the one, thanks Randy.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by sewerrat

Was this the one you’re thinking of ?
https://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/20...ool-bus-safety

Yup, thank you.

[6.5 shooter]

Fith estate video....great stuff only one problem. Seat belts on buses are only lap belts, NOT shoulder and lap belts.

Lap belts will and do cause huge trauma to the lower spine resulting in the spinal cords snapping. Not the safest way to protect your kids.

I get it, you feel helpless you want to protect your kids. You feel you need to do something. But unless your willing to pay more, have a certified seat belt manager on the bus then all your feelings mean nothing.

[dfarms11]

Originally Posted by gunluvr

For the argument for "compartmentalization" to hold any water, it should also apply to cars, trucks, suv's and vans. Without seatbelts, in the event of a collision, the passenger hits the seat in front of them, or the dash, or the steering wheel. The only difference between cars and buses is the amount of "compartments". And what about the kids in the front seat of the bus? That little bar in front of them gonna save their life?

First off even the front seats have a full cushion in front on newer buses There is not just a bar in front of the front seat anymore. If any bus in use today is still equipped like that I'd say is too old to be in-service yet or won't be much longer. You can't compare car seats to bus seats. A car and a bus are each designed different. There is no such thing as compartmentalization in a car. The seats in a car are designed for comfort not safety. That's why seatbelts and air bags are needed. Why stop at seatbelts? Maybe each bus seat should have airbags as well? The safety features of a bus go far beyond just seat design. Everything from size of the vehicle to the smooth walls inside, visibility of the outside of bus and speed travelled. All things being equal, children are safer travelling on a school bus today than in your own vehicle. That's a fact.

It's your opinion that school buses should have seatbelts. That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying that There is more science to the equation than you are aware of.

[thumper]

Even with flight attendants, adults won't stay buckled up on airlines. Think kids are going to act any better on school busses?

[ctd]

Originally Posted by I-Love-Eyes

All depends on the county or city policies. In my county (Parkland), they can only be in service for 18 years max.

And an FYI for anyone who wants to know, school buses are the ONLY "commercial" vehicles on the road that MUST have an inspection done EVERY 6 MONTHS!

Partially correct. This states all buses

As well, all registered buses designed to carry more than 10 passengers, including the driver, must be inspected semi-annually.

Taken from the Gov Ab Tansport website.

[elkhunter11]

Highway buses have seatbelts, but they also have individual seats designed to work with seatbelts. On the other hand, the older school buses have flat slabs for seats, and the best that you could do is to install lap belts, that may not be of much use with the poor seats. In order to properly protect people in school buses, you would need to buy all new seats.

[MrDave]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Having ridden a school bus for 11 years as a passenger and as a driver for 5 years. I find your statement to be miss leading or ....

Bounced of the roof and flung over seats ?? really ?? then you must have had the the worst drivers ever in the industry.

Seat belts are already on the buses they will be (are) a nightmare. Most are used as weapons by older kids now. Belting in 50 kids while trying to keep a schedule will be next to impossible. We as drivers make less then minimum wage yet we carry the most precious cargo of all..... Yet we have to keep track of 50 screaming kids, hockey Mom's and Dad's who have little to no respect for the bus or the rules of the road as long as they get little Johnny or Jane to the rink on time. Parents running the red stop lights and warning signals. Traffic which cuts you off if there is a 1/2 car length lead in front of the bus. POed because we are only allowed to do 90 KM on the highway so they pass on double solid lines, hills etc. But i am sure seat belts will solve all these issues.

But by all means make your kids belt up on the bus...as long as YOU are willing to ride on the bus and be sure everyone is belted in and you do it for free.

Your right. Maybe he was the worst. He shouldn't have hit the ditch that crappy driver. It was all his fault.
But on the other hand maybe the county should have been putting up warning signs about that huge frost heave.

Let me tell you how those padded seats feel. Go smack your face and chest on one of those ER beds. Closest thing I know of that's padded the same way. And do it at a full run.
I would sure like you to talk to the ambulance crew from Rimbey who had to deal with the accident that claimed Jenny Nobles life and left kids splattered on the highway. A child barely held in by a improperly tightened belt is better than a child being thrown about.
I can't imagine how my school mates deal with the memory of that accident, but I'm sure Bonnie still is haunted by covering one of our neighbors daughters body on the side of the highway. Small town life and death.
My question is what d you think its like in a bus when it lands on its side? We ended up on a 30° angle and we fell out of our seats. I can't imagine falling from one side to another. Its a long fall, but I'm sure that one inch of foam overtop of the steel frame doesn't hurt- much.