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Old 06-14-2019, 12:26 PM
Dubious Dubious is offline
 
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Default Quick load velocity way off

can any of the guys that have quick load have a look at a load for me I have entered all my data and its saying my velocity should be 3133fps I fired the test load at the range and it cam out at 3422 measured by Labradar. my load details are

bullet 100 gr Speer BTSP #1408
cartridge .25-06 ack imp
cartridge length is 3.180
barrel length 26"
case capacity in h20 72.4
powder h4831sc
charge weight is 58.0 gr

I hear the program is pretty accurate but 269fps seems a bit extreme what data am I putting in wrong?
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:08 PM
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My QL computes to 3160 MV.
Dave
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:20 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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It's a calculation, not an actual measuring tool. I will trust my Magnetospeed over any calculation.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:25 PM
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here is the screenshot for it.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:29 PM
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Any Pressure signs as your velocity puts you over the safety limit, but who knows. No PS might be good to go.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:41 PM
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That load is is probably at max or over based on the load and velocity. An AI will usually get 100-200 fps over published non AI loads, you are almost 250 fps and 4 grains over published regular 25-06 load/speeds. That is very close to 257 Weatherby speed using a 26" barrel 100 grain bullet and H4831. I would be checking case head and rim expansion really close with that load.

Quick load is a great program but it is an approximation. The Chronograph is still far and away the best indicator of pressure. For an AI I start at 2 grains below published max for the non AI and work up till I get to 150-200 fps faster than max speed for the non-AI, adjusted for barrel length. You can push them faster but there is a real good reason Ackley blew up so many guns trying to get the last 50 FPS out of his cartridges.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:41 PM
huntingfamily huntingfamily is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davey Boy View Post
My QL computes to 3160 MV.
Dave
Mine as well. This is a low pressure/low velocity round.
I'd have a look at the labradar troubleshooting guide in this case.
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:07 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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Originally Posted by huntingfamily View Post
Mine as well. This is a low pressure/low velocity round.
I'd have a look at the labradar troubleshooting guide in this case.
The burn rates in QL are simply approximations. You have to adjust them for your particular load. That can only be done with a chronograph. Once the burn rate is adjusted to your MV average you will find QL to be extremely accurate for that load combo rifle and temperature.
As with any other Loading Manual predictions , start low and work up.
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:29 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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The burn rates in QL are simply approximations. You have to adjust them for your particular load. That can only be done with a chronograph. Once the burn rate is adjusted to your MV average you will find QL to be extremely accurate for that load combo rifle and temperature.
As with any other Loading Manual predictions , start low and work up.
Adjusting the burn rate for H4831sc (ba) up to 4500 (Default is 4300) I show a MV of 3244. Pressure at 52139 psi. Probably very close.
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:58 PM
Dubious Dubious is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Adjusting the burn rate for H4831sc (ba) up to 4500 (Default is 4300) I show a MV of 3244. Pressure at 52139 psi. Probably very close.
you nailed it adjusting the burn rate of h4831sc to .5040 matches my recorded data for other charges I fired very closely.

58.0gr avg 3422, QL 3418
58.5gr avg 3456, QL 3443
59.0gr avg 3469, QL 3468

this must be a variation in lot to lot burn rates?
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Old 06-14-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dubious View Post
you nailed it adjusting the burn rate of h4831sc to .5040 matches my recorded data for other charges I fired very closely.

58.0gr avg 3422, QL 3418
58.5gr avg 3456, QL 3443
59.0gr avg 3469, QL 3468

this must be a variation in lot to lot burn rates?
It has more to do with the burn rate in various sized cases - load densities, bullet weights,temps etc. Now that you have the correct burn rate for your particular rifle and load, the lot to lot variances will still show, but nothing too critical. I find it best to make a note of it because QL will default back to the original burn rate.
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Old 06-14-2019, 06:30 PM
huntingfamily huntingfamily is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
It has more to do with the burn rate in various sized cases - load densities, bullet weights,temps etc. Now that you have the correct burn rate for your particular rifle and load, the lot to lot variances will still show, but nothing too critical. I find it best to make a note of it because QL will default back to the original burn rate.
You can also save the powder as a new name, ie, H4831ai to show it's true burn rate with the 25-06 ai…
It keeps H4831 with the default burn rate, etc
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
It's a calculation, not an actual measuring tool. I will trust my Magnetospeed over any calculation.
Just curious as to why you would state that. A combiation of QL and a good chronograph trumps guessing your pressures off a chronograph alone.

Can you accurately guess the pressures from velocity, or just come close? Can you accurately guesstimate the pressure difference between two different powders with the same MV ?
For a man of your apparent reloading status, you should give it a try before dismissing it as an off-the-wall ballistic calculator. The guy that wrote the program is far more knowledgable regarding internal and external ballistics than all of us on this forum combined. Try it and find out for yourself.
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Just curious as to why you would state that. A combiation of QL and a good chronograph trumps guessing your pressures off a chronograph alone.

Can you accurately guess the pressures from velocity, or just come close? Can you accurately guesstimate the pressure difference between two different powders with the same MV ?
For a man of your apparent reloading status, you should give it a try before dismissing it as an off-the-wall ballistic calculator. The guy that wrote the program is far more knowledgable regarding internal and external ballistics than all of us on this forum combined. Try it and find out for yourself.
Using the OPs example, if Quickload calculated a velocity of 3133fps, and a proven chronograph such as a magnetospeed was reading an average of 3422fps, what would you estimate the actual velocity to be? Don't try and deflect the question or change the topic, just answer the question.
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:02 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Using the OPs example, if Quickload calculated a velocity of 3133fps, and a proven chronograph such as a magnetospeed was reading an average of 3422fps, what would you estimate the actual velocity to be? Don't try and deflect the question or change the topic, just answer the question.
The anwser is simple. If QL burn rates for a specific powder are modified to coincide with actual chronograph results for a specific load and rifle and kept for future reference they will be be almost dead- on for future loads and similar temperatures. You have the sequence backwards.

I think the OP showed that example for three different charge weights.

Fair 'nuff?
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
The anwser is simple. If QL burn rates for a specific powder are modified to coincide with actual chronograph results for a specific load and rifle and kept for future reference they will be be almost dead- on for future loads and similar temperatures. You have the sequence backwards.

I think the OP showed that example for three different charge weights.

Fair 'nuff.
How do you manage to reload ammunition, when you can't even follow simple instructions to answer a very basic question?
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
How do you manage to reload ammunition, when you can't even follow simple instructions to answer a very basic question?
See post #11

Your a real piece of work Elk !
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
See post #11

Your a real piece of work Elk !
I asked a simple question, which you apparently were not capable of providing a straight answer for, even after I specifically asked you to just answer the question. If I want to know the velocity of a load, I use a chronograph to measure the actual velocity , not a calculation to estimate the velocity.
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I asked a simple question, which you apparently were not capable of providing a straight answer for, even after I specifically asked you to just answer the question. If I want to know the velocity of a load, I use a chronograph to measure the actual velocity , not a calculation to estimate the velocity.
That my friend, is your problem. You can't read and comprehend !
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Old 06-14-2019, 11:41 PM
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With default QL data, I get 3160fps

To get the results you measured, burning rate (Ba) has to be changed to 0.5034 and this is a 17% increase!!!!

I have read somewhere, the Ba value cannot be changed more then 5%, as the simulation results would be meaningless.
I don't know why the difference. Do you see pressure signs? If not, maybe another speed check with another chrony.
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Old 06-15-2019, 12:48 AM
Dubious Dubious is offline
 
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there are no pressure signs, no case stretching/case head separation no cratering no sticky bolt no extreme recoil no blackening around the primer pocket. I also fired 7 shots at 52GR for fouling they averaged at 3195fps on the Labradar with a ES of 39 and a STD of 14.4

Last edited by Dubious; 06-15-2019 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 06-15-2019, 04:09 AM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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Default QL Burn rates

Here you go Elk .. argue with Chris for a while. You might be able to get him straightened out.

http://www.the-long-family.com/Tunin...%20results.pdf
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Old 06-15-2019, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Here you go Elk .. argue with Chris for a while. You might be able to get him straightened out.

http://www.the-long-family.com/Tunin...%20results.pdf
I simply use my Magnetospeed, for what is was designed for, it provides accurate velocity reading with no calculations or corrections required. You can adjust the powder burn rate to compensate, when the velocity calculations don't match the actual velocities, but the fact is., that variations in chamber and throat dimensions, and in case volume also vary, and are also responsible for the differences in pressure and velocity, not just the burn rate of the specific lot of powder. So you are adjusting the burn rate, when the burn rate may not be the only variable that is actually causing the difference in velocity. I will stick to measured values , rather than "fudge" numbers, as the author of your link mentions, to achieve the numbers that match the measured velocity. And since I need the chronograph to measure the velocity to "fudge" those numbers, I will just use the measured velocities to suit my purposes.
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Old 06-15-2019, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dubious View Post
there are no pressure signs, no case stretching/case head separation no cratering no sticky bolt no extreme recoil no blackening around the primer pocket. I also fired 7 shots at 52GR for fouling they averaged at 3195fps on the Labradar with a ES of 39 and a STD of 14.4
Load and fire one case five times, if you don't notice the primer pocket loosening at all, at least you know, your case life should be good, and pressures shouldn't be an issue.
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Old 06-15-2019, 01:42 PM
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One big advantage to using Quick Load, if you adjust the burn rate and/or bullet weight to match your actual Velocity, put in an accurate H2O case capacity it spits out pretty accurate pressure numbers. This is not something you get just using just a Chronograph. Still need to verify it by checking over the case real good but I have never found a load that was adjusted to match the actual Chrono velocity, showed 50,000 to 60,000 calculated psi (depending on cartridge) or less to have high pressure signs of any kind.
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Old 06-15-2019, 03:17 PM
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A chrono should give a true velocity of a fire arm especially a Labradar. Any load data we obtain may not match what our chrono tells us. There are to many variables in a fire arm to take load data as being what we will actually get. If the op is getting better then predicted velocities with no pressure take it as a bonus. Next time the velocities maybe way low and you may have pressure. Nothing man makes is 100% the same all the time.
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Old 06-15-2019, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean2 View Post
One big advantage to using Quick Load, if you adjust the burn rate and/or bullet weight to match your actual Velocity, put in an accurate H2O case capacity it spits out pretty accurate pressure numbers. This is not something you get just using just a Chronograph. Still need to verify it by checking over the case real good but I have never found a load that was adjusted to match the actual Chrono velocity, showed 50,000 to 60,000 calculated psi (depending on cartridge) or less to have high pressure signs of any kind.
You're confusing this old man Dean.. . with your post #6 and your contradictory post #25. There is no such thing as being a "little bit"
pregnant.. you either are, or you're not ! Which one ?
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Old 06-15-2019, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I simply use my Magnetospeed, for what is was designed for, it provides accurate velocity reading with no calculations or corrections required. You can adjust the powder burn rate to compensate, when the velocity calculations don't match the actual velocities, but the fact is., that variations in chamber and throat dimensions, and in case volume also vary, and are also responsible for the differences in pressure and velocity, not just the burn rate of the specific lot of powder. So you are adjusting the burn rate, when the burn rate may not be the only variable that is actually causing the difference in velocity. I will stick to measured values , rather than "fudge" numbers, as the author of your link mentions, to achieve the numbers that match the measured velocity. And since I need the chronograph to measure the velocity to "fudge" those numbers, I will just use the measured velocities to suit my purposes.
"None so blind as those who will not see".I'll try One more time Elk-thats all !

Your average Chronograph readings have already taken in to consideration all the various discrepancies in that particular chamber, throat,barrel etc. and that particular load and that particular rifle, on that particular day (temp) I hope that's clear enough. Now, adjust the powder burn rate in QL to match those results. Document that particlar adjusted burn rate. Forever more,QL will produce excellent proximities to that velocity and pressure. If thats what you call fudging numbers, well, do it your way. I don't really care.
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Old 06-15-2019, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
"None so blind as those who will not see".I'll try One more time Elk-thats all !

Your average Chronograph readings have already taken in to consideration all the various discrepancies in that particular chamber, throat,barrel etc. and that particular load and that particular rifle, on that particular day (temp) I hope that's clear enough. Now, adjust the powder burn rate in QL to match those results. Document that particlar adjusted burn rate. Forever more,QL will produce excellent proximities to that velocity and pressure. If thats what you call fudging numbers, well, do it your way. I don't really care.
Do you not read the articles at the links that you post? The word "fudge" is taken directly from that article, when the author explains that the powder burn rate is not always the issue, and that adjusting it, doesn't always produce accurate results.

Quote:
Sometimes changing just the burn rate is not enough to get QL to accurately match the measured data. In this case, it has been observed that this is likely due to a very tight (or loose) barrel, heavy fouling, or even different land configurations. In otherwords, bullet friction is a large variable, and if it is abnormally high (or low), thepowder burn characteristics will differ greatly from the nominal predictions used in QL. The best way to compensate for these variations is to slightly (and this means only a grain or two for a 100 grain bullet) “fudge” the bullet weight value in QL, usually n combination with the powder burn rate, until the QL predictions match the measured data of the charge range in question
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Old 06-15-2019, 07:54 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Do you not read the articles at the links that you post? The word "fudge" is taken directly from that article, when the author explains that the powder burn rate is not always the issue, and that adjusting it, doesn't always produce accurate results.

Of course I read it. What he meant by that is that if you arrived at a certain burn rate number with a clean barrel, then tried to duplicate it with a badly fouled barrel or some other difference the results could vary a bit. Maybe even a different barrel altogether for that matter.. That situation can be tweaked , or fudged if you will, by adding or subtracting a grain or three to the bullets weight to compensatefor the variance in MV and/or pressure. You can't do that with extremely large differences.For those of us who keep our rifles fairly clean it really doesn't present a problem. It works best when you want to get the QL predictions down to a foot or so of the original Chronograph average.
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