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  #61  
Old 11-15-2017, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JDK71 View Post
i have a boy that at 7 years of age i started to see a change in him as time went by i new he was gay school whet good for him until 15 16 years old they he started to be picked on . i am always there for him he came out when he was 17 i hugged him and said hay we are all different in are own way .It was hard with him for a long time but with support he is 25 now and doing good .just letting you know i have been there with my son .I am not just a key board hero
Thank you for your post.

If only all parents were like you, this discussion would not be happening. Unfortunately, as we are all very aware, they are not. Hence a bill that is designed to protect students.

Last edited by sns2; 11-15-2017 at 08:55 PM.
  #62  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:00 PM
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No, I don't want it. I'm a teacher, not a counselor. No one I know wants to play big brother, or usurp the authority of a parent. We just want to teach as best as we can, be positive adult role models, and facilitate the future academic and social success of the kids in our classrooms. Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of us do not want to play Dr Phil.

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I’m just curious how you feel about potentially having to lie (or face legal ramifications) straight to the kids parents face?

Not bashing or anything, I just want to see it from a teachers perspective.
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  #63  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:05 PM
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Fair question. This bill is about attending GSAs. I have already said that wild horses could not get me to supervise this club, thus I would never have to lie to a parent. Furthermore, this bill would allow me to truthfully say, "Even if I was aware one way or the other, the law does not allow me to divulge that information."

It is really no different than a doctor not being allowed to share medical information.

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Last edited by sns2; 11-15-2017 at 08:54 PM.
  #64  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:14 PM
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The bill does nothing other than take away parental control over children. Anybody who supports this bill believes that the government / education system knows what's best for the children. Is there a requirement for teachers to tell parents what is going on? No, there isn't. The bill creates a problem where there is none. It also makes teaches complacent and removes the teacher / parent connection. The child could be struggling in any aspect but the teacher doesn't feel like making an issue of it. No problem with this bill as there are now no consequences for not notifying parents.

It is a lot more than outing gay kids. You people need to learn to read between the lines. This is probably the most drastic step towards socialism / nanny state the NDP have taken.
You're living in a conspiracy theory world. Pretty much exactly the opposite of what you say You're a pot stirrer !
  #65  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:21 PM
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You're living in a conspiracy theory world. Pretty much exactly the opposite of what you say You're a pot stirrer !
  #66  
Old 11-15-2017, 07:25 PM
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Short answer: Talk to your kids every day and involve yourself in their lives. Be available 24/7 for advice. Observe how they think,what they do,how they deal with their problems,what they come up with for solutions and how they interact with their peers. Being on their side if they have suffered an injustice is important but leading by example is the foremost job of a parent. Being a proper parent is one of the hardest jobs I was ever tasked with. The state`s obligation with regard to teachers (payed to do so)is to teach (the 3 R`s)and educate the children to the parent satisfaction, not make moral judgement law and rule. P.S. Raised 2 children as a single parent. Both in their 40`s now, both successful in their careers,family and farms.
  #67  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:04 PM
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Please let me know how a teacher would know if a parent is going to beat the living tar out of their child? Osmosis? Psychic giftings?? Crystal balls??? Do you really think that this doesn't happen to kids coming out??? Are you so blinded by your political conservatism that you can't figure out that a gay kid doesn't need another layer of fear in their lives that a teacher, who is supposed to be a trusting adult figure, may rat them out to their parent who may be very against their sexuality, which they did not choose in the first place?

This is not a perfect bill. Life is not perfect, nor is it lived out in black or white. It's not the role of a teacher. We teach curriculum. We are not psychoanalysts. And I am comfortable in making the blanket statement that if a parent is unaware that their child is gay, they are approaching failure status as a parent.

These are not sex clubs people. They are peer support groups for a group of kids who have the highest suicide rate in all society, and are at the most fragile point in their lives. If you think that threatens the foundation of western society, then I am at a loss for words.
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  #68  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:12 PM
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Default Moral Agrandizing

Lots of moral mudslinging going on here. Telling someone they are a bad parent because they dont know if there child is gay is quite harsh. Who gives you the right to appoint yourself the arbitor of good or bad parenting? So if I am hearing those who support this correctly, your saying that the moral position of supporting homosexual values trumps that of traditional values that many parents want there children to have? Fine. I get your point. Just understand that your making a value judgement. You are also assuming that your values are superior to those that have served our society for hundreds of years.

Please dont come crying to me when the moral degradation of the very fabric of who we are as a people collapses around you. Dont cry about rural theft and crime. Dont cry about peodofilia in our society and culture. Dont cry about viloence and murder. You have decided that our children our not to be taught values by those who gave them life, there parents. The state is now the one who should tell our children right from wrong. Prepare to reap the whirlwind.
  #69  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:17 PM
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^^^ no need to get Old Testament on us here. There have been parents failing their kids just as long as there has been parents supporting them. And whether you like it or not some of the moral fabric things from the last 500 years need to go anyways!!!
  #70  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:21 PM
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^^^ no need to get Old Testament on us here. There have been parents failing their kids just as long as there has been parents supporting them. And whether you like it or not some of the moral fabric things from the last 500 years need to go anyways!!!
So... we should support Bill 24 because it is the “progressive” thing to do? There were a lot of wise people 500 years ago...

This bill is an example of the “tolerant” left’s intolerance. “Support my ideologies, you bigot!”
  #71  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:31 PM
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Default Let me get this correct

The teacher is not required to answer questions a parent has about there childs sexuallity and can an will keep this secret. That is moral and good.

How bout if the teacher and the student are having sex? Is that moral and good? Would you feel you had the right to know what 2 consenting parties were doing? Would you dare to make a "moral judgement" about this situation?

If so what gives you the right to judge one of these situations as being acceptable and the other as being immoral? Please define the standards that you use to push your morality on others.
  #72  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:38 PM
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Please dont come crying to me when the moral degradation of the very fabric of who we are as a people collapses around you. .
I don't know about moral degradation, depends on whose morals and what the standards of the epoch or era we live in is. 50 years ago according to my grandmother hippies and girls wearing tube tops and cut off jeans were the end of the world, it couldn't get anymore morally degraded, in her mind the end of the world was imminent because of it. In reality the world is no more morally degraded than before. Were just allowing the same crap that has gone on for thousands of years out of the closet and accepting it as a societal norm that us old dinosaurs don't like.
  #73  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by markg View Post
The teacher is not required to answer questions a parent has about there childs sexuallity and can an will keep this secret. That is moral and good.

How bout if the teacher and the student are having sex? Is that moral and good? Would you feel you had the right to know what 2 consenting parties were doing? Would you dare to make a "moral judgement" about this situation?

If so what gives you the right to judge one of these situations as being acceptable and the other as being immoral? Please define the standards that you use to push your morality on others.
Dude- seriously?
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  #74  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Bushrat View Post
I don't know about moral degradation, depends on whose morals and what the standards of the epoch or era we live in is. 50 years ago according to my grandmother hippies and girls wearing tube tops and cut off jeans were the end of the world, it couldn't get anymore morally degraded, in her mind the end of the world was imminent because of it. In reality the world is no more morally degraded than before. Were just allowing the same crap that has gone on for thousands of years out of the closet and accepting it as a societal norm that us old dinosaurs don't like.
So in terms of morality, where does one draw the line? What is immoral? If one "activity" is ok, why not another?
  #75  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:50 PM
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Default Point taken

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Originally Posted by Bushrat View Post
I don't know about moral degradation, depends on whose morals and what the standards of the epoch or era we live in is. 50 years ago according to my grandmother hippies and girls wearing tube tops and cut off jeans were the end of the world, it couldn't get anymore morally degraded, in her mind the end of the world was imminent because of it. In reality the world is no more morally degraded than before. Were just allowing the same crap that has gone on for thousands of years out of the closet and accepting it as a societal norm that us old dinosaurs don't like.
I see your point.

However I also see numerous threads on this forum about people breaking into there homes or farms stealing the hard earned goods of the victims. I see people pontificating about mass shootings. I see people complaining about pedofiles in hollywood. Yet here we stand at a major cross roads. Down one path we have the government saying that they no best. Down the other is the path trodden by our forefathers that is based on the Jeudo-Christian ethic.

I think the problems I mentioned above are directly the result of abandoning the path taken by our forefathers. I could be wrong. So could you. I just see our society in a state that mirrors Rome before its collapse.
  #76  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bushrat View Post
I don't know about moral degradation, depends on whose morals and what the standards of the epoch or era we live in is. 50 years ago according to my grandmother hippies and girls wearing tube tops and cut off jeans were the end of the world, it couldn't get anymore morally degraded, in her mind the end of the world was imminent because of it. In reality the world is no more morally degraded than before. Were just allowing the same crap that has gone on for thousands of years out of the closet and accepting it as a societal norm that us old dinosaurs don't like.
Even back then, in the good old days, some wanted teachers to police the length of those skirts. And then teachers started wearing that scandalous garb. Those were the days. Time to take deep breath and move on.
EDIT: the decline of Rome happened over hundreds of years.
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  #77  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:58 PM
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Default Done

I have said my piece. I object to this legislation. I have made my points. In a free country we are all permited to present our arguements. Mine are not convincing. I accept that. I just hope that those on the opposite side accept responsibilty for the consquences of thiers.

Thank you for the dialog and Goodnight.
  #78  
Old 11-15-2017, 10:03 PM
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Easy answer. The NDP knew that Kenney would dog-whistle to his social conservative base.

They set him up, he bit, and as a result the NDP now is painting all UCP supporters as bigots and anti-gay. I sure hope that this is the only time, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they will try and define the UCP the same way the Wildrose was depicted back in 2012.

If they are successful, and this is only the first shot across the bow, and if the Alberta Party puts all their scat in a pile, don't count the cakewalk that was predicted only a few weeks ago for the UCP. It was clear that when Brian Jean was rejected, even though it was just as clear that he was the most popular politician in Alberta by the UCP, where the party was leaning.

Personally, I'll hold my breath until the policy conference. Depending on how that goes will influence where I do. And more importantly, where most Albertan's will be. Most Albertan's are not socially conservative.
Yup I'm pretty sure campaigning with the same kind of mentality that didn't work for them last election will work just as well this time
  #79  
Old 11-15-2017, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Even back then, in the good old days, some wanted teachers to police the length of those skirts. And then teachers started wearing that scandalous garb. Those were the days. Time to take deep breath and move on.
EDIT: the decline of Rome happened over hundreds of years.
Yup.
  #80  
Old 11-15-2017, 10:23 PM
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Man alive!!, teachers are now allowed to keep secrets from their parents about whatever questions parents might have about their own children, but the teacher couldn't give the child a Tylenol if they have a headache without the parents permission. What next!! Send me back in time please!!
  #81  
Old 11-15-2017, 10:38 PM
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I just don’t understand why there needs to be a law about this. Does this make sense to anyone?


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  #82  
Old 11-15-2017, 10:43 PM
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Said a teacher to a parent...If you believe only half of what your child tells you about me, I will believe only half of what your child tells me about you
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  #83  
Old 11-15-2017, 10:57 PM
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Lots of moral mudslinging going on here. Telling someone they are a bad parent because they dont know if there child is gay is quite harsh. Who gives you the right to appoint yourself the arbitor of good or bad parenting? So if I am hearing those who support this correctly, your saying that the moral position of supporting homosexual values trumps that of traditional values that many parents want there children to have? Fine. I get your point. Just understand that your making a value judgement. You are also assuming that your values are superior to those that have served our society for hundreds of years.

Please dont come crying to me when the moral degradation of the very fabric of who we are as a people collapses around you. Dont cry about rural theft and crime. Dont cry about peodofilia in our society and culture. Dont cry about viloence and murder. You have decided that our children our not to be taught values by those who gave them life, there parents. The state is now the one who should tell our children right from wrong. Prepare to reap the whirlwind.
So I followed your post. No surprise on your views.

You lost me tho towards the end. Are you drawing parallels between gay kids and rural crime? Or GSAs and murder?

I'm not sure how pedophiles came into the mix at all??


I for one am ok with Bill 24. I've got 3 kids oldest is 14 youngest will be 10. I don't expect their teacher to tell me every group they're involved in. I know because I talk to my kids.
I do expect to be told if they're in danger and the teacher sees it. Which the bill allows for.

Why the panic? Way to much tinfoil hat material around here lately.
Rock and roll didn't destroy the world this won't either.
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  #84  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by markg View Post
Lots of moral mudslinging going on here. Telling someone they are a bad parent because they dont know if there child is gay is quite harsh. Who gives you the right to appoint yourself the arbitor of good or bad parenting? So if I am hearing those who support this correctly, your saying that the moral position of supporting homosexual values trumps that of traditional values that many parents want there children to have? Fine. I get your point. Just understand that your making a value judgement. You are also assuming that your values are superior to those that have served our society for hundreds of years.

Please dont come crying to me when the moral degradation of the very fabric of who we are as a people collapses around you. Dont cry about rural theft and crime. Dont cry about peodofilia in our society and culture. Dont cry about viloence and murder. You have decided that our children our not to be taught values by those who gave them life, there parents. The state is now the one who should tell our children right from wrong. Prepare to reap the whirlwind.
So, you're saying that being gay is immoral and criminal, on the same level as theft, murder and pedophilia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newview01 View Post
So in terms of morality, where does one draw the line? What is immoral? If one "activity" is ok, why not another?
Pretty easy to determine, when an act creates a victim out of someone.
  #85  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:37 AM
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Why the panic? Way to much tinfoil hat material around here lately.
Rock and roll didn't destroy the world this won't either.
That bloody (no pun intended) Ozzy Osbourne came close though. If you don't believe me then watch this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeuW4Smf9PI

Last edited by sns2; 11-16-2017 at 07:02 AM.
  #86  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:46 AM
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This thread has taken a few bizarro twists on page 3, but no one is personally insulting anyone, so continue the debate...

BTW, lest anyone think that mods are no longer allowed to join in, you are wrong, we just have to put on our super sonar heat shield undies for the blowback. This is one I feel strongly about, largely because many people's positions are informed by sound bytes, which often are erroneous factually speaking, so I will gladly join in and offer what I feel to be the perspective of most teachers.

What is really crummy is that both parties have politicized this thing to the hilt. Though no legislation is perfect, this one is designed to protect students at a difficult point in their journey through life.

Last edited by sns2; 11-16-2017 at 07:09 AM.
  #87  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by markg View Post
Lots of moral mudslinging going on here. Telling someone they are a bad parent because they dont know if there child is gay is quite harsh. Who gives you the right to appoint yourself the arbitor of good or bad parenting? So if I am hearing those who support this correctly, your saying that the moral position of supporting homosexual values trumps that of traditional values that many parents want there children to have? Fine. I get your point. Just understand that your making a value judgement. You are also assuming that your values are superior to those that have served our society for hundreds of years.

Please dont come crying to me when the moral degradation of the very fabric of who we are as a people collapses around you. Dont cry about rural theft and crime. Dont cry about peodofilia in our society and culture. Dont cry about viloence and murder. You have decided that our children our not to be taught values by those who gave them life, there parents. The state is now the one who should tell our children right from wrong. Prepare to reap the whirlwind.
Human rights trumps religion 100% of the time.
If your child can't tell you they're gay due to your religion - there's the problem.
If your religious beliefs are getting in the way of you seeing that your child is gay, then who is raising your child? You, or your religion.
If your religion is raising your child - that's why the comment of a bad parent.

Cheers
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  #88  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:17 AM
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Human rights trumps religion 100% of the time.
If your child can't tell you they're gay due to your religion - there's the problem.
If your religious beliefs are getting in the way of you seeing that your child is gay, then who is raising your child? You, or your religion.
If your religion is raising your child - that's why the comment of a bad parent.

Cheers
Replace the word "religion" with "moral values" - and I think we'll get a better understanding what markg is getting at.

Some have different moral values than others. Because some of us think differently, does that make us wrong?
  #89  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:19 AM
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Human rights trumps religion 100% of the time.
If your child can't tell you they're gay due to your religion - there's the problem.
If your religious beliefs are getting in the way of you seeing that your child is gay, then who is raising your child? You, or your religion.
If your religion is raising your child - that's why the comment of a bad parent.

Cheers
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  #90  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:52 AM
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Nominated for post of the day!
Agree! Being gay isn't a choice, it is the way they were born. I don't think anyone would choose to be picked on or choose to have their parents hate them because of their "moral values" or their "religion".

It feels like the discussion of women having the right to vote and blacks sitting anywhere they please on a bus is happening again. I am sure people in the future will look back and wonder why it was an issue to begin with. Moral values should be about accepting people for how they were born rather than trying to modify them into who you want them to be.

Sure I get that parents want to know about their kids but it isn't up to a teacher to tell them. I am fairly certain teachers aren't required to tell parents about yearbook committees, book clubs or any other clubs for that matter. If self harm or the child's safety is an issue than absolutely parents should be involved and notified. The teachers have more to worry about than what kids belong to what clubs.
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