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11-11-2017, 11:35 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,381
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two load choices
I am shooting a 6.5x47 Lapua with 123 gr scenar's. I have a 30 inch Kreiger MTU contour barrel so my velocities are on the high side. I use Lapua brass and I have a couple of loads that are shooting around 1/2 moa.
First load is 36.5 Varget with velocity 2945 ES 12 and an SD 4.9 on 8 shots
Second Load is 37.7 Varget with Velocity of 3017 ES 15 SD 5.6 on 8 shots
This load is on the hot side but no obvious pressure sings but the bolt lift is a bit heavy.
I am currently shooting out to 500 yrds to 600m but I am working towards shooting out to 1KM. I am leaning toward the 37.7gr load. This is a recommended competition load from Accurate shooter.com
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/65x47/
The lighter load is very nice and accurate. If i was only going to shoot out to 500 yrds this would be my choice.
Both shoot approximately the same accuracy wise
The Photo is of the brass with the 37.7 Varget load. I am currently using CCI 450 small magnum primers.
Last edited by markg; 11-11-2017 at 11:44 PM.
Reason: better photo
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11-12-2017, 05:24 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: onoway, Ab
Posts: 6,993
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Myself i would use the lighter load, especially if the bolt is a little stiff with the hotter one. What is there to be gained other than premature wear using the hotter load. You are already dialling another few clicks wont make a difference,,
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11-12-2017, 06:10 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,148
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Definitely the lighter load.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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11-12-2017, 06:48 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 536
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I would shoot the load that is the most accurate with the lowest ES. Hard to tell from the photos, but the primers look flat. Have you ever tried H4350? That is the only powder I have ran in my two 6.5X47. I shoot the 130 Berger hunting out of one and a 130 Accubond out of the other. With only 72 ft per second difference, to me it is a wash. The most accurate load with the lowest ES and vertical always wins at long range. I also would lean towards the lighter load as long as it is accurate. I got 2 lbs of Varget on the way. Might try out some 140's.
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11-12-2017, 07:03 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: south of calgary
Posts: 1,831
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what do 600m targets look like with both loads? if 1k is your goal, what value does 100yds have?
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220swifty
1. People who list their arguments in bullets points or numerical order generally come off as condescending pecker heads.
2. #1 is true.
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11-12-2017, 07:22 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,585
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If you are getting hard bolt lift that is a sign of too much pressure for that load/rifle combination
Stick to the lighter load
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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11-12-2017, 07:35 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North of Cochrane
Posts: 6,677
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Don't get a case stuck!
I'm not one of the experts but I re-load and shoot a lot. The very last thing you want is a case stuck in your rifle.
As others have said at long range a few feet MV doesn't make any difference, what you want is accuracy. The longer the range the more important it is.
You could try a lighter bullet if you want more MV.
Let us see those long range targets.
We were shooting a 7.62 x 39 yesterday and were having lots of fun with my re-loads. Still lots of work to do.
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"The well meaning have done more damage than all the criminals in the world" Great grand father "Never impute planning where incompetence will predict the phenomenon equally well" Father
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11-12-2017, 07:44 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 1,529
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I would go with the lighter load.
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11-12-2017, 05:22 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,381
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I did some shooting today
I went shooting again today. The 36.5 groups just slightly better. The 37.7 was .637 to .545. However the 36.5 had several groups under 1/2 inch. I was to lazy to set up my chrono and i have a pretty go idea where its at, 2940 for the 36.5 and the 37.7 is usually at 3020 ish
I was only able to shoot out 100 yrds today the dang cows seem to think standing right in the path from my shooting position to my gong was a good idea. I guess I could have just had steak for supper tonight!!!
The other strange thing was my rifle seems to shoot better off the bipod then from the shooting rest. Barrel harmonics are a strange thing.
Last edited by markg; 11-12-2017 at 05:28 PM.
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11-12-2017, 05:23 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,381
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Used primers
I thought i would post a pic of the 37.7 primers
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11-12-2017, 05:39 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,381
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Thanks nice tips
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeman3
I would shoot the load that is the most accurate with the lowest ES. Hard to tell from the photos, but the primers look flat. Have you ever tried H4350? That is the only powder I have ran in my two 6.5X47. I shoot the 130 Berger hunting out of one and a 130 Accubond out of the other. With only 72 ft per second difference, to me it is a wash. The most accurate load with the lowest ES and vertical always wins at long range. I also would lean towards the lighter load as long as it is accurate. I got 2 lbs of Varget on the way. Might try out some 140's.
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I thought about H4350 its just that i cant find any 8lbs anywhere. I tend to load alot of cartridges in a session so i like to use the same lot and that requires using 8lbs can. Varget seems fairly common in that size. Looks like there are alot of winning recipes for it on Accurate Shooter as well.
Let me know what kind of a velocity difference your getting between the H4350 and the Varget if you buy some. I am very curious.
Have you ever shoot the 123 scenars? I have thought of trying the 130 Bergers seems like that is a very good weight for the 6.5x47 Have you tried any of the 140gr bullets?
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11-12-2017, 05:39 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
Posts: 8,315
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In my ‘47’s, I initially tried RE 15 and Varget, but eventually switched to H4350. I wonder if it would yield higher velocities given the length of your barrel?
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Old Guys Rule
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11-12-2017, 05:42 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,381
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Was starting to wonder the same thing
Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem
In my ‘47’s, I initially tried RE 15 and Varget, but eventually switched to H4350. I wonder if it would yield higher velocities given the length of your barrel?
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Was wondering the same thing today. Do you have any sources of 8lb cans your willing to divulge?
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11-12-2017, 05:48 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,381
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Strange question
Anyone here ever try buying 5 to 8 cans of a particular powder like say H4350 and then mixing them vigorously so they esentially become one lot? Pros and Cons?
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11-12-2017, 06:07 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 135
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Ive been using 37.5 grains of varget in my 6.5x47 lapua and there has yet to be an issue and the grouping is extremely accurate. no heavy bolt lift.
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11-12-2017, 06:28 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg
Anyone here ever try buying 5 to 8 cans of a particular powder like say H4350 and then mixing them vigorously so they esentially become one lot? Pros and Cons?
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I have mixed different lots many times, there are no cons.
Quote:
Ive been using 37.5 grains of varget in my 6.5x47 lapua and there has yet to be an issue and the grouping is extremely accurate. no heavy bolt lift
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Every rifle is an individual, a slight difference in chamber/barrel dimensions, and a load that produces excessive pressure in one rifle produces no pressure signs in another rifle. Some people would have us believe that all manufacturers use the exact same SAAMI specs for their barrels/chambers/magazines etc , but that isn't always the case,
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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11-12-2017, 10:03 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: one Fort or another
Posts: 768
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What do you expect to get from an additional 70 fps?
Probably won't get much, but you won't know unless you try them both at your terminal range, be it 700 or 900 or 1km.
Urban legend has it that the .223 has particularly bad wounding characteristics because at some range it starts to tumble before hitting the target. Enthusiasts I've spoken with swear they get just as good accuracy as any small cartridge there is with no tumbling. Whatever, but it shows that at some point some cartridges can become less precise than usual.
Further, you get super/subsonic transition inaccuracies with some slower cartridges such as .22LR or conceivably some autoloading handgun cartridges. Maybe the 6.5x47 has its point of limitations near 1km, who knows?
I'd try both, unless the stickiness gets ridiculous. OTOH, I sometimes got reluctance of a smallish fresh cartridge to slide into the chamber throat despite full-length resizing, and the bolt was very difficult to close. Turns out the cartridge mouth was belling out and got a weird doughnut around it which would shear off in the press, despite good dies. Had to turn the neck every couple of reloadings to make it perfectly parallel, and that solved the problem. So maybe chamber tightness might not be completely due to excessive pressure.
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11-13-2017, 07:28 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: three hills
Posts: 801
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I tried h4350 and IMR4350 in my 6.5 creedmoor and had better luck with the imr and its a little cheaper also.
Pretty sure it comes in 8 lbs.
I would try a pound of what ever you plan on and try it first before buying 8 lbs thow.
I usally buy my powder by the pound and mix if its different lot numbers .
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11-13-2017, 07:35 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,847
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If you are getting sticky bolt lift with the heavier charger the lighter charge is likely over pressure as well.
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11-13-2017, 07:41 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North of Cochrane
Posts: 6,677
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Not a de-rail (I hope)
Arty, maybe I should have sent a PM but there may be others like me.
We were shooting a 7.62 x 39 with brass cases that I rolled up and we were having trouble getting the bolt down, The oal was fine so my best guess was I needed to "push the shoulders back" I've read that here before. I've never heard of what you are describing but the results we have is the same.
I'd appreciate any insight. The rounds are not hot and eject easily.
If this is a de-rail just ignore the post.
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"The well meaning have done more damage than all the criminals in the world" Great grand father "Never impute planning where incompetence will predict the phenomenon equally well" Father
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11-13-2017, 10:16 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,381
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All good Densa
i love it when interesting solutions to other problems come out in threads. Keep em coming.
One thing I am coming to appreciate is just how great a cartridge the 6.5x47 really is. I have tried several loads and they all seem to shoot really well. Its not fussy in the least. Very tough brass, after 3 fireings the primer pockets are still rock solid.
I read about these things on different web sites and forums and thats why I built one but its really nice when your choice exceeds your expectations.
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11-13-2017, 12:35 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Beaumont
Posts: 429
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6.5x47
My custom 6.5x47 L. is a right hand repeater / sporter
Benchmark #4 x 24" bbl., DEFIANCE Thinhorn action, CDI bottom metal, McMillan Gamescout, Calvin Elite trigger
Pet Load:
BERGER Classic Hunter 135gr., BC 0.584
37.6 VARGET , CCI BR450
Five shot groups SD readings of 2.64, 6.08, 10.19 , 14.93
Muzzle velocity: 2750
No stiff bolt, no compressed powder, very accurate !
Last edited by AlbertaAl; 11-13-2017 at 12:41 PM.
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11-13-2017, 01:07 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,381
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Nice load
aint the 6.5 a peach!
Lots of guys shooting the 450 primers. Seems everyone uses either varget or H4350.
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11-13-2017, 01:18 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Beaumont
Posts: 429
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6.5
I'd like to try the 120SMK someday, if I can find them.
RL15 is supposed to be very good with 120's
I tried Hdy 143ELD-X with IMR7828, H4350, and RL17 which provided the highest velocity but I couldnt get the tight groups with anything.
My freebore is 150 (according the smith that worked on this)
Even though my KRIEGER bbl is marked and purchased as a 1:8
It measures 1:8-1/2 ... not sure if it matters, but it wasn't identified properly
by the manufacturer from the get-go. Maybe they con't consider the extra 1/2 to be enough that's worth mentioning.
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11-13-2017, 02:41 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St Albert
Posts: 848
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If it were me I'd go with the lighter charge. 1- its more accurate and 2- when the weather gets warm you might be looking at higher pressures or altered POA shifts. When I do load development I shoot my favorite loads hot and cold. If its summer time I let a few rounds sit in the sun and bake and the other on ice in a cooler. In this weather you could always leave a few round on the dash of the truck with the heat cranked for few minutes to see if anything changes, and a few out in the cold to freeze. The added benefit is you can test for POA changes that may occur.
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11-13-2017, 06:41 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: one Fort or another
Posts: 768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by densa44
Arty, maybe I should have sent a PM but there may be others like me.
We were shooting a 7.62 x 39 with brass cases that I rolled up and we were having trouble getting the bolt down, The oal was fine so my best guess was I needed to "push the shoulders back" I've read that here before. I've never heard of what you are describing but the results we have is the same.
I'd appreciate any insight. The rounds are not hot and eject easily.
If this is a de-rail just ignore the post.
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I don't have the last word on case forming, but there's a typical set of things to check if you can't get a bolt to cycle correctly.
* OAL & trimming (as you've tried),
* full-length sizing (with the die adjusted properly - ensure it's turned down far enough that the die end touches and slightly depresses the holding plate during cam-over)
* neck diameter/dimensions (what I was referring to earlier - despite use of a neck sizing die with correct bushing size)
* condition of the cartridges base slot (i.e. rough deformations from a deformed extractor claw, or lots of use)
* condition of the extractor claw (bent or otherwise deformed)
* stretched cartridge base (from excessively hot loads, accompanied by loose primer pockets)
* poor chamber headspacing (not setting up the barrel correctly with go/nogo gauges, or even the chamber stretching over time).
Headspace of a beltless cartridge is measured from the base to shoulder. That will stretch over time, so has to be bumped back. Headspace of a belted cartridge is measured from the base to the belt. The greater thickness and stiffness of the base resists changes in cartridge headspace much better in belted cartridges, from my experience. My larger carts are belted and I've never had a problem with them. The smaller beltless ones are always the ones which get finicky after a few reloads. The smaller chambers are also tighter aftermarket ones.
The russkie 7.62 is beltless, so I'd expect it would need a full-length resizing on a regular basis (vs just neck resizing). But I've never reloaded or fired it.
.02
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11-14-2017, 03:37 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,381
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Talk of H4350
We talked about switching from Varget to H4350 and I found this chart. Seems like the Varget is a bit faster than the H4350 in the 6.5x47 Lapua that was tested. Interesting.
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11-14-2017, 04:26 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
Posts: 8,315
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My 24” ‘47 barrels drive 130 Berger VLD (H) about 2850 fps MV. I never chrony’d Varget after I settled that I was getting better group results with the slower burn rate. For myself. consistency trumps velocity, but I am not a long range shooter.
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11-14-2017, 05:37 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
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Long Range
I not an actual long range shooter I am more of a wanna be long range shooter. The Fartherst I have been able to hit anything has been 600m and at that distance i am not overly consitent.
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11-14-2017, 06:25 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Jasper
Posts: 836
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two load choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg
We talked about switching from Varget to H4350 and I found this chart. Seems like the Varget is a bit faster than the H4350 in the 6.5x47 Lapua that was tested. Interesting.
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In addition to your comment above, it looks like Varget is pretty temperature stable at the "cold" and "ambient" temperatures listed on that table. Don't really think that 140 Fahrenheit is relevant to the shooting that most of us are doing.
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