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  #211  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:11 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Purposely underestimating or willfully blind to certain facts has been the very reason this thread is soon to be 8 pages long. An indiviual person will have their own idea of the perfect cartridge to match their own style. Some find it hard to understand, others embrace trolling the forums. I think age might be a factor.
LOL!

You two make me laugh!!!

It's data from an online calculator. Did you catch the part where the 280rem was only going 2775fps at muzzle? You must have missed that little tid bit of info, probably never noticed that even though it started out 25fps slower it ended up going over 100fps faster at the 500yd mark while packing 100ft/lbs more energy to boot. I guess you missed that part or the equation.

If you want to start putting in hand load data I can put in the data from my Cooper 280rem and make that 30-06 look like a real turd.

I sure hope you guys aren't trying to tell me the 30cal ballistics will beat out the 7mm ballistics in these cases with these weights? Put your feelings aside and look at the facts, they are not hard to find. It's not me trying to hurt your feelings, they can be found on any ballistic calculator.


Here, have a gander at this and tell me who is purposely underestimating and willfully blind. You can send an email to its creator and tell them to add more powder to the 30-06.

http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/

I compared the 160 and 165 Nosler partitions, punch in the 280rem 140gr Winchester bst compared to the 30-06 Winchester 150gr bst for a giggle.

Last edited by Kurt505; 03-11-2017 at 08:24 PM.
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  #212  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:49 PM
700-223 700-223 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Nyksta View Post
Purposely underestimating or willfully blind to certain facts has been the very reason this thread is soon to be 8 pages long. An indiviual person will have their own idea of the perfect cartridge to match their own style. Some find it hard to understand, others embrace trolling the forums. I think age might be a factor.
Ha ha!

No, the 30 cal is not obsolete. Yes, modern ammunition has improved making smaller cartridges more potent, but this applies to all calibers, sorry, I mean cartridges!

The bottom line is that you should match the ammunition to the game being hunted, at least to an extent, and that anything from a 26 to a 30 would make a damn fine single rifle for hunting damn near everything in NA. Nostalgia, availability, personal preference play a larger role than objective facts when it comes to cartridge selection. And, since none of us will have the opportunity to take hundreds of animals in a lifetime as professional hunters used to do our personal 'data' is anecdotal at best as the sample size is too small.

For what it's worth, I've got a 7mm RM. Store had a 300 wm and it in stock, but after looking at info on both I didn't see what the 300 would do better for my plans other than kick more. Don't even own a 30 cal at the moment, and no plans to. If I was hunting anything truly large and dangerous like a polar bear, coastal grizzly, or going on an Africa safari I'd add a 338, 35 Whelen, or 375 over a 28 or a 30, but my 7mm would make a fine second rifle for such a trip.

And yes, I know Bell killed hundreds of elephants with a small bore, but I ain't him. So for me, 28 is great for all around hunting, but for certain purposes I'd carry the heaviest caliber I could carry comfortably and shoot accurately. Now, if you said you carried a 260, or a 6.5x55, or a 280, 30-06, 300 wm or... I'd say, that's great, how do you like it - mind if I give it a try? There's no single factor that trumps all the others when it comes to killing power IMO - using smaller caliber for better BC and SD - lose frontal area, using a 30 because a 28 that's 20 gr lighter is too small - put up with more recoil which can affect shot placement, etc.

FWIW, I do agree with the premise of this thread though - the advantages of the 30 cal in frontal area aren't worth paying the price of increase in recoil for what and where I hunt l. Otoh, the 'disadvantages' of the 30 cals inside 300 or even 400 yds are only big enough to argue about on the Internet and around the campfire... Let me put it this way, I prefer my 7mm but if I had a 30-06 I wouldn't sell it to replace it with one. The rifle I have is dirty though, and those NULA's look pretty awesome...
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  #213  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:59 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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those NULA's look pretty awesome...


Life's too short, get the Nula!!!
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  #214  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:22 PM
700-223 700-223 is offline
 
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Life's too short, get the Nula!!!
Ha ha, I wish! We have a baby due in two weeks and I went back to school to do some additional training and won't be done until January. Not in the budget for a while.

Keep posting about yours though, they look awesome! Btw, I'm thinking 6.5 creedmoor or 7mm-08 would be a good choice for a lightweight rifle, rather than .308 🤣 - that would just be silly...
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  #215  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:28 PM
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Ha ha, I wish! We have a baby due in two weeks and I went back to school to do some additional training and won't be done until January. Not in the budget for a while.

Keep posting about yours though, they look awesome! Btw, I'm thinking 6.5 creedmoor or 7mm-08 would be a good choice for a lightweight rifle, rather than .308 🤣 - that would just be silly...
I ordered 100 Lapua brass and a set of 6.5 Creedmoor dies

Got 200 143gr ELD-X's and 100 129gr NLRAB's waiting for the arrival!

Can't wait till fall

PS, congrats with the baby, not sure if it's your first but it's the best thing that'll happen to you. I was out coyote hunting with my boys today, one was packing a Tikka 270, the other his daisy red rider BB gun (he's 4, but had to come for the hunt!).
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  #216  
Old 03-12-2017, 07:58 AM
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Gade81 Gade81 is offline
 
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Wow I can't believe I wasted my time reading through even the first 5 pages of this. Not sure where y'all are at after 11, but guessing still at the same place.
End of the day, smaller is not a better option, just a different one. Personal preference, they all kill animals. But at the end of the day, all things being equal, isn't bigger, more? Or why do guys talk of wanting big guns to face a grizz? Is it because they can provide more??
Either way, there's my contribution to and adolescent sounding discussion. Carry on boys


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  #217  
Old 03-12-2017, 08:06 AM
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Wow I can't believe I wasted my time reading through even the first 5 pages of this. Not sure where y'all are at after 11, but guessing still at the same place.
End of the day, smaller is not a better option, just a different one. Personal preference, they all kill animals. But at the end of the day, all things being equal, isn't bigger, more? Or why do guys talk of wanting big guns to face a grizz? Is it because they can provide more??
Either way, there's my contribution to and adolescent sounding discussion. Carry on boys


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Because nearly all of them have never shot one before, and their cartridge selection is a hypothetical, emotional response, rather than one based on pragmatic experience.
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  #218  
Old 03-12-2017, 08:42 AM
700-223 700-223 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith View Post
Because nearly all of them have never shot one before, and their cartridge selection is a hypothetical, emotional response, rather than one based on pragmatic experience.
Or because they've read the experiences of those who have taken many dangerous game and come to the reasonable conclusion that the most powerful rifle you can shoot accurately is a good choice on some game. If I had a 375 and a 7mm that I could reliably hit the vitals with, I would choose the more powerful rifle for some game. Conversely, if the largest caliber I could shoot with hunting accuracy was a 308, I would choose not to intentionally hunt some game. There's a reason there's a caliber minimum for certain dangerous game in certain jurisdictions, no matter how much 'pragmatic experience' you've got.

BTW, criticizing the person rather than discussing ideas is called an ad hominem logical fallacy, or shooting the messenger in common parlance. It's the preferred form of discourse of teenage girls, political commentators, and is seen frequently on Internet forums just before moderators lock threads. The people I've known with the most 'pragmatic experience' including my 97 year old grandfather who grew up in the Great Depression, is a WWII veteran, and is one of the people I admire most never use it. FWIW.
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  #219  
Old 03-12-2017, 08:52 AM
700-223 700-223 is offline
 
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Read this this morning and came here to post it before I got side-tracked It talks about how we can't really quantify how much energy is transferred to game by various bullets, which is one of the reason all the usual topics - SD, energy, velocity, caliber - are limited in terms of describing 'killing power'. Worth a read, IMO.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/...pound-fallacy/

Even talks about the 45-70 and 30-30 and why these relatively unimpressive rounds (from a velocity and trajectory POV), can be such reliable and impressive hunting cartridges. I don't own any rifles in these thumper cartridges, but for certain uses they make a lot of sense even though they are pretty much the antithesis of the high velocity, high BC, efficient cartridges.
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  #220  
Old 03-12-2017, 09:47 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by 700-223 View Post
Read this this morning and came here to post it before I got side-tracked It talks about how we can't really quantify how much energy is transferred to game by various bullets, which is one of the reason all the usual topics - SD, energy, velocity, caliber - are limited in terms of describing 'killing power'. Worth a read, IMO.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/...pound-fallacy/

Even talks about the 45-70 and 30-30 and why these relatively unimpressive rounds (from a velocity and trajectory POV), can be such reliable and impressive hunting cartridges. I don't own any rifles in these thumper cartridges, but for certain uses they make a lot of sense even though they are pretty much the antithesis of the high velocity, high BC, efficient cartridges.
That article just confirms what I've been saying, it's more about bullet design than the size of gun. Key points are rate of expansion, size of wound channel, and penetration. All these things are being addressed with modern bullets. Heavy for caliber bullets, like a 147gr 6.5 or a 175gr 7mm, like the new ELD-X. These bullets have a wide range of actual performance speed, and because they are long, have longer pedals which give them a wider (per caliber) frontal area when they expand.

Calibers originally designed to be whiz bangs, shooting heavy for caliber projectiles with proper design is what I'm talking about. They are traveling slower but the long bullets with high BC's carry their effective performance out to long ranges.
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  #221  
Old 03-12-2017, 09:57 AM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
That article just confirms what I've been saying, it's more about bullet design than the size of gun. Key points are rate of expansion, size of wound channel, and penetration. All these things are being addressed with modern bullets. Heavy for caliber bullets, like a 147gr 6.5 or a 175gr 7mm, like the new ELD-X. These bullets have a wide range of actual performance speed, and because they are long, have longer pedals which give them a wider (per caliber) frontal area when they expand.

Calibers originally designed to be whiz bangs, shooting heavy for caliber projectiles with proper design is what I'm talking about. They are traveling slower but the long bullets with high BC's carry their effective performance out to long ranges.
I assume the criteria you mention above is what you used when you chose the 6.5 over the .35 Whelen in the original scenario that was posted near the top of this thread .. or am I misreading ?
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  #222  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:04 AM
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I assume the criteria you mention above is what you used when you chose the 6.5 over the .35 Whelen in the original scenario that was posted near the top of this thread .. or am I misreading ?
I think a 120gr TSX or GMX would work as well but I don't like the mono metal bullets, I've always preferred explosive expanding bullets, that's why I always choose to shoot for the lungs, not the shoulders. I haven't tried the new ELD-X bullets yet, but from everything I've read on them they are "all that".
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  #223  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:07 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Today I'm using my obsolete 30 cal 30-06 and are touring around the West country.

I chowed down on 2 Elk chezz burgers last night so it will dampen the felt recoil when I take a pop shot at a coyoteee. Ha.

Hope its close and allows for a clean harvest as the BC & SD are the craps,,, hope the prey dose not have a higher education level then me since I failed math and science.

Oh well, guess a obsolete 30 caliber with too much recoil will have to remain for my last 20 or 30 years of harvesting game.

I guess it all works out as the 30 caliber rifle and I will fade away into the history of Lala Lala land.

Obsolete is gooder as only a few of us remain too share stores about the good old days.

Coffee time with big Grin reading today's posts on a cut line covered in snow at -17c

Don

Post 223 wins a prize dosen't it ???

PS: This is too funny as I see all of us are enjoying the thread and having a good time. I hope I don't have too explane why as I'm lacking in English wording skills

Last edited by Don_Parsons; 03-12-2017 at 10:19 AM.
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  #224  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:14 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
Today I'm my obsolete 30 cal 30-06 and I are out touring around the West country.

I chowed down on 2 Elk chezz burgers last night so it will dampen the felt recoil when I take a pop shot at a coyoteee. Ha.

Hope its close and allows for a clean harvest as the BC & SD are the craps,,, hope the prey dose not have a higher education level then me since I failed math and science.

Oh well, guess a obsolete 30 caliber with too much recoil will have to remain for my last 20 or 30 years of harvesting game.

I guess it all works out as the 30 caliber rifle and I will fade away into the history of Lala Lala land.

Obsolete is gooder as only a few of us remain too share stores about the good old days.

Coffee time with big Grin reading today's posts on a cut line covered in snow at -17c

Don

Post 223 wins a prize dosen't it ???

Did I hurt your feelings Don?

I realize some will have a hard time coming to terms with the science for the simple reason they can't understand it. Enjoy your drive.
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  #225  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:18 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Ha. No hurt feelings here as I except the blame of things going south. Ha.

Been lurking the forum from the side lines and I must admit there are some good threads showing up.

Deffinatly winter time in the foot hills of Alberto.

Don
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  #226  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:24 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Ha. No hurt feelings here as I except the blame of things going south. Ha.

Been lurking the forum from the side lines and I must admit there are some good threads showing up.

Deffinatly winter time in the foot hills of Alberto.

Don
Winter is the time to learn the theory, fall is time to test the practical
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  #227  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:35 AM
michaelmicallef michaelmicallef is offline
 
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6.5 cals might be the latest rage but try and find a 6.5 cal at a gun counter. Still not threatening the 30 cal. Or any of the old staples.
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  #228  
Old 03-12-2017, 10:42 AM
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6.5 cals might be the latest rage but try and find a 6.5 cal at a gun counter. Still not threatening the 30 cal. Or any of the old staples.
Of course there will be a much larger assortment of .308 caliber rifles, but I can walk into any firearms dealer that I normally shop at and find an assortment of rifles in the .264" cartridges. The 30 calibers have decades of a head start in our country, but the .264s are gaining in popularity.
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  #229  
Old 03-12-2017, 11:10 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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6.5 cals might be the latest rage but try and find a 6.5 cal at a gun counter. Still not threatening the 30 cal. Or any of the old staples.
The reason you can't find a 6.5 at the gun counter is because they can't keep anything 6.5 on the shelf, people are buying them up as soon as they land. Try getting anything in a 6.5 Creedmoor and I bet it's on backorder.

The thing that sets the 6.5x47 Lapua and 6.5 Creedmoor apart from a lot of others is their design and being able to seat them way out with the heavy for caliber bullets in a short action chamber.

This isn't new technology, but it's new to me. Just recently when I looked into my next rifle cartridge I knew I wanted a short action so I started my investigation, it really opened up my eyes.
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  #230  
Old 03-12-2017, 11:41 AM
michaelmicallef michaelmicallef is offline
 
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I personally think that retailers are stuck in thier ways and aren't smart enough to catch on to the trend. Wholesale sports , bass pro and cabellas don't even try to bring that caliber in . I asked and they said" there is not enough demand for that caliber" . (6.5 ish) They are out of touch! I can order it no problem!
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  #231  
Old 03-12-2017, 12:08 PM
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All bullets drop, all bullets are affected by wind. Some more than others. One thing I've realized over the last little while is paper ballistics of what a cartridge can and can't do don't mean much. You can give me the best ballistic 6.5mm out there and I could still miss a deer.

If a person doesn't get out and practise, get to know how a rifle performs, figure out real world bullet drops by actually shooting at those distances. Shooting in different conditions, learning to estimate distance and wind. All of these I think will make more of a difference than calibers.

As far as recoil goes, that all depends on the rifle. I've shot some 300win mags that a good recoil pad and stock design make it reasonable. I really couldn't tell much difference between the 708 that I started hunting with to the 308 that I shoot now. My brother said it best, " when you have a critter in your sights you're not thinking about recoil"
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  #232  
Old 03-12-2017, 01:55 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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All bullets drop, all bullets are affected by wind. Some more than others. One thing I've realized over the last little while is paper ballistics of what a cartridge can and can't do don't mean much. You can give me the best ballistic 6.5mm out there and I could still miss a deer.

If a person doesn't get out and practise, get to know how a rifle performs, figure out real world bullet drops by actually shooting at those distances. Shooting in different conditions, learning to estimate distance and wind. All of these I think will make more of a difference than calibers.

As far as recoil goes, that all depends on the rifle. I've shot some 300win mags that a good recoil pad and stock design make it reasonable. I really couldn't tell much difference between the 708 that I started hunting with to the 308 that I shoot now. My brother said it best, " when you have a critter in your sights you're not thinking about recoil"
All good points.

I tend to shoot a rifle more if it burns less powder and has less recoil. Cheaper to run and more fun.
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  #233  
Old 03-12-2017, 01:58 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith View Post
Because nearly all of them have never shot one before, and their cartridge selection is a hypothetical, emotional response, rather than one based on pragmatic experience.
"When it comes to killing effectiveness, bullet construction has a much greater impact than SD. This has been established by industry experts, and is borne out in my own experience as a hunter and guide, as well. In the hundreds of BG animals I've seen die, the trend that I've noticed is that a lighter bullet of controlled expansion, whether a Nosler PT, Barnes TTSX, etc, penetrates deeper and more reliably than a heavier C&C. Now that doesn't necessarily means than a controlled-expansion bullet kills more effectively than other designs like a Berger VLD or other C&C design."

The above is a quote from your post #88. Had I realized you were a top tier guide who has witnessed "hundreds" of BG kill's I would never had considered disagreeing with some of your very pragmatic comments.
You have been a very busy guy with several decades of experience for a seemingly younger individual.
Compared to us armchair guys you have done very well
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Old 03-12-2017, 03:04 PM
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One thing that I have come to realize after being in this hobby of barrel burning for awhile , Is that I'll take any caliber as long as it's accurate. That's all I really care about in the end.
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  #235  
Old 03-12-2017, 03:27 PM
700-223 700-223 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
Today I'm using my obsolete 30 cal 30-06 and are touring around the West country.

I chowed down on 2 Elk chezz burgers last night so it will dampen the felt recoil when I take a pop shot at a coyoteee. Ha.

Hope its close and allows for a clean harvest as the BC & SD are the craps,,, hope the prey dose not have a higher education level then me since I failed math and science.

Oh well, guess a obsolete 30 caliber with too much recoil will have to remain for my last 20 or 30 years of harvesting game.

I guess it all works out as the 30 caliber rifle and I will fade away into the history of Lala Lala land.

Obsolete is gooder as only a few of us remain too share stores about the good old days.

Coffee time with big Grin reading today's posts on a cut line covered in snow at -17c

Don

Post 223 wins a prize dosen't it ???

PS: This is too funny as I see all of us are enjoying the thread and having a good time. I hope I don't have too explane why as I'm lacking in English wording skills
Yep, you win a prize - you got to spend the day in the West Country . I had a nice morning with the family, but have got to admit I'd happily trade rifles with you and carry an obsolete 30-06 for a day in the woods. Good on you for getting out there.

You sledding or do you have tracks on your quad?
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  #236  
Old 03-12-2017, 03:40 PM
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Jordan Smith Jordan Smith is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 700-223 View Post
Or because they've read the experiences of those who have taken many dangerous game and come to the reasonable conclusion that the most powerful rifle you can shoot accurately is a good choice on some game. If I had a 375 and a 7mm that I could reliably hit the vitals with, I would choose the more powerful rifle for some game. Conversely, if the largest caliber I could shoot with hunting accuracy was a 308, I would choose not to intentionally hunt some game. There's a reason there's a caliber minimum for certain dangerous game in certain jurisdictions, no matter how much 'pragmatic experience' you've got.

BTW, criticizing the person rather than discussing ideas is called an ad hominem logical fallacy, or shooting the messenger in common parlance. It's the preferred form of discourse of teenage girls, political commentators, and is seen frequently on Internet forums just before moderators lock threads. The people I've known with the most 'pragmatic experience' including my 97 year old grandfather who grew up in the Great Depression, is a WWII veteran, and is one of the people I admire most never use it. FWIW.
Are you suggesting that I'm criticizing Gade81? Because I'm not. I simply answered a question, and I'll include myself in that group that sometimes forms opinions on certain things based on theory (what you call reading) and emotion. If in a short-range, charging grizzly situation, I'd agree with you about the .375 and the 7mm, even though I've never had to shoot a charging grizzly (came close several times, though!). In fact, the closest call I had with a grizz, was when I was holding a 7RM. I wished it was a .375 or bigger at the time, but that was an emotional decision, not based off of how the 7RM and .375 actually worked for me in real life experience stopping charging grizzlies.

We all do it to some extent. What would you use to hunt elephants? You ever shot one? If not, your decision is based on theory and emotion, and may not reflect the actual effectiveness of particular chamberings in real life use.
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  #237  
Old 03-12-2017, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
"When it comes to killing effectiveness, bullet construction has a much greater impact than SD. This has been established by industry experts, and is borne out in my own experience as a hunter and guide, as well. In the hundreds of BG animals I've seen die, the trend that I've noticed is that a lighter bullet of controlled expansion, whether a Nosler PT, Barnes TTSX, etc, penetrates deeper and more reliably than a heavier C&C. Now that doesn't necessarily means than a controlled-expansion bullet kills more effectively than other designs like a Berger VLD or other C&C design."

The above is a quote from your post #88. Had I realized you were a top tier guide who has witnessed "hundreds" of BG kill's I would never had considered disagreeing with some of your very pragmatic comments.
You have been a very busy guy with several decades of experience for a seemingly younger individual.
Compared to us armchair guys you have done very well
I wouldn't say top tier, and it doesn't take long to witness a couple hundred animals die when you guide several people a year, professionally as well as casually, in addition to your own hunting. There are people that have seen a lot more kills than I have.

I will say that some people do more in a year than others, so not everybody's "one year" or "one decade" of hunting is equal. Some people also pay more attention to terminal performance after a kill than others. So age doesn't mean much when it comes to gathering meaningful experience. There are too many variables.
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  #238  
Old 03-12-2017, 05:02 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Slow Quad with tracks. Ha


Always sight seeing in 1St and 2nd gear as my pumpkin takes in what the slow eyes see now days. LOL.

Hard too see anything when the wind is blowing.

Don.

PS: I hope we all continue to have free access to our crown lands as they offer so much to the spirit of good times and freedom like no other.
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  #239  
Old 03-12-2017, 05:36 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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I wouldn't say top tier, and it doesn't take long to witness a couple hundred animals die when you guide several people a year, professionally as well as casually, in addition to your own hunting. There are people that have seen a lot more kills than I have.

I will say that some people do more in a year than others, so not everybody's "one year" or "one decade" of hunting is equal. Some people also pay more attention to terminal performance after a kill than others. So age doesn't mean much when it comes to gathering meaningful experience. There are too many variables.
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 03-12-2017, 06:10 PM
stob stob is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Couldn't agree more.
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