30 cal???

[Dean2]

You guys need to get out and do some fishing, shooting or anything else useful and fun. These kinds of arguments are really a waste of time and your good brain power.

Kurt you have at least two guns you should be working up loads for!

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

BC has nothing to do with it once the bullet gets to an animal, bullet weight, penetration, and energy is what does the job. If OP is talking about "most" hunting then this list is a good example.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power_list.htm

Isn't BC a determining factor in how much energy the bullet retains in flight? A 140gr ELDX bullet out a 260rem at 500yds will have more energy than a 168gr ELDX bullet out of a 308, will be traveling almost 200fps faster, and have much better penetration. Minimum performance speed for most hunting bullets is 1800fps, so by about 565yds, and about 1200ftpd energy the 168gr out of the 308 is done, where the 260rem will make it out to 750yds while having about 1000ftpds of energy. Even though the 260 will have less energy it will still penetrate deeper and have enough speed for the ELDX to perform properly. For reference, at 550yds the 260rem is still traveling at 2025fps and has 1275ftpd of energy, and at 750yds the 308 has about 900ftpd energy and is traveling at about 1550fps. As far as wind drift is concerned, the 6.5 is the clear winner.

Apples to apples the 6.5 stomps the 30cal with less recoil.


Dean, I've got 3 new rifles to develope loads for, I just don't know how bad I want to do it in -20!!!!

[Salavee]

BC gets you there but SD does the job. That's where the 6.5 shines

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Isn't BC a determining factor in how much energy the bullet retains in flight? A 140gr ELDX bullet out a 260rem at 500yds will have more energy than a 168gr ELDX bullet out of a 308, will be traveling almost 200fps faster, and have much better penetration. Minimum performance speed for most hunting bullets is 1800fps, so by about 565yds, and about 1200ftpd energy the 168gr out of the 308 is done, where the 260rem will make it out to 750yds while having about 1000ftpds of energy. Even though the 260 will have less energy it will still penetrate deeper and have enough speed for the ELDX to perform properly. For reference, at 550yds the 260rem is still traveling at 2025fps and has 1275ftpd of energy, and at 750yds the 308 has about 900ftpd energy and is traveling at about 1550fps. As far as wind drift is concerned, the 6.5 is the clear winner.

Apples to apples the 6.5 stomps the 30cal with less recoil.


Dean, I've got 3 new rifles to develope loads for, I just don't know how bad I want to do it in -20!!!!

With any bullet, sectional density and bullet shape are the major contributors to BC. Speed plays a lesser role. Without high sectional density you cannot have a high BC. That, I believe, is why heavy for caliber bullets such as those often used in the 6.5 makes that caliber such darn good killers.

[Nyksta]

Your original post...

Originally Posted by Kurt505

With the advancement in bullets these days, particularly in the 6.5 and 7mm catergory, extremely high BC's and controlled expansion, more and more I think the 30cal is becoming obsolete in terms of hunting.

Am I wrong in thinking less is becoming more in terms of modern cartridges?

Your new post

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Isn't BC a determining factor in how much energy the bullet retains in flight? A 140gr ELDX bullet out a 260rem at 500yds will have more energy than a 168gr ELDX bullet out of a 308, will be traveling almost 200fps faster, and have much better penetration. Minimum performance speed for most hunting bullets is 1800fps, so by about 565yds, and about 1200ftpd energy the 168gr out of the 308 is done, where the 260rem will make it out to 750yds while having about 1000ftpds of energy. Even though the 260 will have less energy it will still penetrate deeper and have enough speed for the ELDX to perform properly. For reference, at 550yds the 260rem is still traveling at 2025fps and has 1275ftpd of energy, and at 750yds the 308 has about 900ftpd energy and is traveling at about 1550fps. As far as wind drift is concerned, the 6.5 is the clear winner.

Apples to apples the 6.5 stomps the 30cal with less recoil.


Dean, I've got 3 new rifles to develope loads for, I just don't know how bad I want to do it in -20!!!!

If we are focusing on 99% of hunting done in North America, it is not at the 500 yard range. So for 99% of hunting, 30 cal is going to stay strong. If you are talking about some special long range rifle for hunting beyond 500 yards, then a whole bunch of other factors come into play. And depending on your target, you might be happy with 6.5mm or 7mm or you might even want 338. Are you talking about hunting in general and if 30 cal applies to that, or are you talking some long range dream shot?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Your original post...



Your new post



If we are focusing on 99% of hunting done in North America, it is not at the 500 yard range. So for 99% of hunting, 30 cal is going to stay strong. If you are talking about some special long range rifle for hunting beyond 500 yards, then a whole bunch of other factors come into play. And depending on your target, you might be happy with 6.5mm or 7mm or you might even want 338. Are you talking about hunting in general and if 30 cal applies to that, or are you talking some long range dream shot?

I know what my original post and my last post say, what is your point? The link you posted was for 100yds, I wouldn't hesitate to take a 243 hunting anything in North America if 100yds was my limit. A 500yd shot is by no means a dream shot for me, I've taken animals much further.

What range is 99% of hunting in North America done at? Please be specific.


Are you still trying to tell me BC has nothing to do with it?

[Nyksta]

If someone chose 30 cal intending long range shooting, they would choose a similarly over bore cartridge as 260 remington to also get some fast muzzle volicities for higher energy shots and would choose a higher weight for caliber bullet than 168 grain. I cant seem to find the 168 grain eldx bullet listed on hornady website, but i do see 30 cal selection up to 220 grain with outstanding bc's that would mop the floor with the bc'd that the highest bullet weight offering for 6.5mm offers.... if someone wanted to shoot that far that is.

Its hardto find an official record on shot distance but theres the occasional poll for threads.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho....php?p=3209940

Most hunting is 30 to 200m

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

If someone chose 30 cal intending long range shooting, they would choose a similarly over bore cartridge as 260 remington to also get some fast muzzle volicities for higher energy shots and would choose a higher weight for caliber bullet than 168 grain. I cant seem to find the 168 grain eldx bullet listed on hornady website, but i do see 30 cal selection up to 220 grain with outstanding bc's that would mop the floor with the bc'd that the highest bullet weight offering for 6.5mm offers.... if someone wanted to shoot that far that is.

Its hardto find an official record on shot distance but theres the occasional poll for threads.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho....php?p=3209940

Most hunting is 30 to 200m

Is 500yds what you call long range hunting? And do you consider a 3000-4000rd cartridge to be overbore?

It was actually the ELDM bullets I was looking at. I used the 6.5 cal to compare with the 308 based cartridges, if you want to bump it up to magnums we can use the 7mm bullets and again the 30 cal loses. Like I posted earlier, a 7mm 175gr ELDX has a BC of .689 compared to the 30 cal 220gr bullet which has .663

It's a 338 cal that holds the long range record right now, it knocked out the previous 6.5cal to get the record.

30-200m is a mighty broad range, but way more hunting happens at 0-500yds.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

BC gets you there but SD does the job. That's where the 6.5 shines

With modern bullet designs, bullet construction is far more important than SD. As for all of the long range theory, and arguing about B.C., it isn't a factor in the vast majority of situations, because the vast majority of game animals are killed at 300 yards or less.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

With modern bullet designs, bullet construction is far more important than SD. As for all of the long range theory, and arguing about B.C., it isn't a factor in the vast majority of situations, because the vast majority of game animals are killed at 300 yards or less.

Not if you combine them both ... not by a long shot. How did you come up with that ?

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Not if you combine them both ... not by a long shot. How did you come up with that ?

Because a low SD and low BC bullet can still be designed to penetrate deeply. Theres lots of stuff out there to learn about.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Not if you combine them both ... not by a long shot. How did you come up with that ?

I came up with that by comparing the effects of various bullets on big game animals. A light monometal bullet with a much lower SD will penetrate more, and hold together better than a much heavier cup and core bullet.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I came up with that by comparing the effects of various bullets on big game animals. A light monometal bullet with a much lower SD will penetrate more, and hold together better than a much heavier cup and core bullet.

But we were'nt talking C & C vs Mono .. it think it was about SD with similar bullets ,weren't we ? We can discuss light monos vs heavy SD C&C's later .

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

But we were'nt talking C & C vs Mono .. it think it was about SD with similar bullets ,weren't we ? We can discuss light monos vs heavy SD Monos later .

You quoted my post where I specifically stated that bullet construction was more important than SD,so it should have been obvious that I was referring to bullets of different construction. Had I been referring to similar bullets, I wouldn't have even mentioned bullet construction,

The statement below is what you yourself quoted.

With modern bullet designs, bullet construction is far more important than SD. As for all of the long range theory, and arguing about B.C., it isn't a factor in the vast majority of situations, because the vast majority of game animals are killed at 300 yards or less.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You quoted my post where I specifically stated that bullet construction was more important than SD,so it should have been obvious that I was referring to bullets of different construction. Had I been referring to similar bullets, I wouldn't have even mentioned bullet construction,

The statement below is what you yourself quoted.

Yes, I stated that and it was referring to inside 300 yds where BC doesn't really enter in to the equation other than the SD portion.. No ?

Nothing is obvious other than you stated bullet construction was more important than SD. I disagreed .. and still do.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Because a low SD and low BC bullet can still be designed to penetrate deeply. Theres lots of stuff out there to learn about.

Can you give me an example of one?

[Salavee]

Can you locate the actual post where I stated this "quote"

With modern bullet designs, bullet construction is far more important than SD. As for all of the long range theory, and arguing about B.C., it isn't a factor in the vast majority of situations, because the vast majority of game animals are killed at 300 yards or less.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Yes, I stated that and it was referring to inside 300 yds where BC doesn't really enter in to the equation other than the SD portion.. No ?

Nothing is obvious other than you stated bullet construction was more important than SD. I disagreed .. and still do.

Disagree if you will, but I have compared carcasses killed with 140gr 7mm monometal bullets, and compared them to carcasses killed with 160 and 175gr 7mm cup and core bullets, and the 140gr monometals penetrated more, and held together better than the other bullets despite having a lower SD. My hunting partners saw the same results, and now we all use 140 to 150gr monometal bullets.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Can you give me an example of one?

..and me too

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Can you give me an example of one?

Barnes ttsx
Hornady gmx
Nosler etip

Heres an interesting video on comparing bullet construction

https://youtu.be/DEv8ehUVabU

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Disagree if you will, but I have compared carcasses killed with 140gr 7mm monometal bullets, and compared them to carcasses killed with 160 and 175gr 7mm cup and core bullets, and the 140gr monometals penetrated more, and held together better than the other bullets despite having a lower SD. My hunting partners saw the same results, and now we all use 140 to 150gr monometal bullets.

So are you the only guys that have ever done that ? I and hundreds others guys around have done the same thing .. and with a 7STW as well. I never had any of your noted bullets fail .. but never did recover a TSX
Most of us now use heavy for caliber premium C&C and find they are more reliable overall.
A Heavy C&C ,308 cal 220 gr at a 2000 fps impact velocity blew my 7 STW away using a 175 gr Tsx at the same impact velocity. Then the lights came on. I guess that's why I'm a high SD fanboy.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Barnes ttsx
Hornady gmx
Nosler etip

Heres an interesting video on comparing bullet construction

https://youtu.be/DEv8ehUVabU

Can you be a bit more precise on you bullet selections ? I don't think most of us need any lessons on bullet construction Thanks anyway.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Barnes ttsx
Hornady gmx
Nosler etip

Heres an interesting video on comparing bullet construction

https://youtu.be/DEv8ehUVabU

.484 isn't what ic consider a low BC? SD's don't really concern me too much.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You quoted my post where I specifically stated that bullet construction was more important than SD,so it should have been obvious that I was referring to bullets of different construction. Had I been referring to similar bullets, I wouldn't have even mentioned bullet construction,

The statement below is what you yourself quoted.

With modern bullet designs, bullet construction is far more important than SD. As for all of the long range theory, and arguing about B.C., it isn't a factor in the vast majority of situations, because the vast majority of game animals are killed at 300 yards or less.
"
Elk ... the above is your post , not mine. Substitute "SD" for "BC" and I may have said it at one time or another... just not this time.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

So are you the only guys that have ever done that ? I and hundreds others guys around have done the same thing .. and with a 7STW as well. I never had any of your noted bullets fail .. but never did recover a TSX
Most of us now use heavy for caliber premium C&C and find they are more reliable overall.
A Heavy C&C ,308 cal 220 gr at a 2000 fps impact velocity blew my 7 STW away using a 175 gr Tsx at the same impact velocity. Then the lights came on. I guess that's why I'm a high SD fanboy.

If you were using 175gr 7mm monometal bullets then you were not using the monometal bullets like myself and my hunting partners do. The monometal bullets typically perform best at lighter weights and higher velocities, and the people that seem to be the least impressed with monometal bullets , are the people that use heavy for caliber monometal bullets. Using a heavier weight, higher SD monometal bullet will actually prevent you from seeing the true potential of monometal bullets.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Because a low SD and low BC bullet can still be designed to penetrate deeply. Theres lots of stuff out there to learn about.

Here is one thing I learned. ..maybe yesterday or the day before ..
"You cannot have a high BC without having high SD" Without a higher SD penetration is pretty hard to come by with any bullet. What am I missing here ?

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Here is one thing I learned. ..maybe yesterday or the day before ..
"You cannot have a high BC without having high SD" Without a higher SD penetration is pretty hard to come by with any bullet. What am I missing here ?

I cant tell over typing if the repeated twisting of quotes is a joke or not, but either way... its difficult to debate a topic that keeps changing.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If you were using 175gr 7mm monometal bullets then you were not using the monometal bullets like myself and my hunting partners do. The monometal bullets typically perform best at lighter weights and higher velocities, and the people that seem to be the least impressed with monometal bullets , are the people that use heavy for caliber monometal bullets. Using a heavier weight, higher SD monometal bullet will actually prevent you from seeing the true potential of monometal bullets.

That is precisely what I no longer use monos as a primary large game hunting bullet. I'm not down on their abilities but I now use big heavy medium velocity high SD bullets in my mid bores and find them to be much more consistent performers on med to larger Game. In my smaller bores where I can maintain high velocities to distance they perform very well. Believe it or not, I have used a lot of different monos since the first arrived on the scene and I'm familiar with what they can and cannot do. They have their place for sure, but no bullet can do it all. I guess that's what makes all this chatter so interesting.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

I cant tell over typing if the repeated twisting of quotes is a joke or not, but either way... its difficult to debate a topic that keeps changing.

Sorry , If I twisted a quote plse tell me where. It wasn't on purpose, that's for sure.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

I cant tell over typing if the repeated twisting of quotes is a joke or not, but either way... its difficult to debate a topic that keeps changing.

It hasn't changed one bit. Fact remains that a 6.5 or 7mm bullet will have the speed, energy and performance to kill any North American animal out to 500yds with ease because of the advancement in modern bullets, the need for the heavy 30cal magnums is not as much of an issue anymore imo. I'm not saying a 30cal won't work, I'm saying the 6.5's and 7mm's are a better option. They offer excellent performance with less recoil.