500 Yard Standing Offhand CHALLENGE

[Rman]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

The more I look into this 38-55 tack driver the more amazed I get! This bullet goes transonic at 265 yards! I cannot believe that maintain stabilized flight for the remaining 245 yards and none have keyholed through the target!

You are making a few assumptions that aren't correct. 255 grain projectiles were used, but faster than 1600.
It is an old rifle, and I have had it for a long time. It was of the first rilfes I ever purchased, from an old timer in BC. When I bought it, all of the small parts were in a coffee can, and the barrel and mag tube were in bad shape. Bore was good though. I have shot this rilfe lots, and at greater distances. The only time I have had a bullet go sideways was trying some "experimental" slugs that turned out to be .375"...

R.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Rman

You are making a few assumptions that aren't correct. 255 grain projectiles were used, but faster than 1600.
It is an old rifle, and I have had it for a long time. It was of the first rilfes I ever purchased, from an old timer in BC. When I bought it, all of the small parts were in a coffee can, and the barrel and mag tube were in bad shape. Bore was good though. I have shot this rilfe lots, and at greater distances. The only time I have had a bullet go sideways was trying some "experimental" slugs that turned out to be .375"...

R.

I am actually a fan of the 38-55, what bullet at what velocity were you using?

[Rman]

Still using the Barnes 255, but at 2100ish...
It's about as fast as I would like, in that rifle.
R.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Rman

Still using the Barnes 255, but at 2100ish...
It's about as fast as I would like, in that rifle.
R.

Any idea what ya may be getting for pressures inside that ol' gal? Have you noticed any pressure signs?

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Rman

Still using the Barnes 255, but at 2100ish...
It's about as fast as I would like, in that rifle.
R.

Man alive I am still amazed you are stabilizing is as when ya run the data at that scorching 2100fps, that bullet goes transonic at 285 yards leaving what should be a tumbling Rubiks Cube for the remaining 215 yards and somehow it punches nice clean round holes.

The reason why I am quite amazed is that I have shot my 17HMR lots at 300m and it goes transonic at 265m if memory serves me correctly, leaving only 35m of slow flight to the target. The results between groups at 250m where its supersonic and at 300m where its subsonic are amazing. The 17 HMR was only transonic for 11% of its flight distance (and makes shotgun like patterns) and this 38-55 remained tight for a transonic distance for 43% of the flight distance. Awesome twist in physics!

[norwestalta]

Rman is that the best you can do or just everyday shooting? I'm pretty impressed.

[sns2]

This is likely the most impressive display of "hunting shooting" I have seen. Just awesome. I bet your freezer is full. Great job!

[Rman]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Any idea what ya may be getting for pressures inside that ol' gal? Have you noticed any pressure signs?

According to the data I have, its supposed to be right around 35,000psi, but I do suspect higher. 38,500 or so...I have no pressure signs on the brass, or primer. Again, this works in this rifle...

R.

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by Rman

According to the data I have, its supposed to be right around 35,000psi, but I do suspect higher. 38,500 or so...I have no pressure signs on the brass, or primer. Again, this works in this rifle...

R.

it's not the brass or the primer that will show the pressure. the large rifle primers are used at 60,000 psi without pressure signs.
you should have that at 30,000 psi in a 94 according my my book.
i wouldn't push it i know some guys push 45-70's in the same sort of fashion but hey not my gun...

[Rman]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Man alive I am still amazed you are stabilizing is as when ya run the data at that scorching 2100fps, that bullet goes transonic at 285 yards leaving what should be a tumbling Rubiks Cube for the remaining 215 yards and somehow it punches nice clean round holes.

The reason why I am quite amazed is that I have shot my 17HMR lots at 300m and it goes transonic at 265m if memory serves me correctly, leaving only 35m of slow flight to the target. The results between groups at 250m where its supersonic and at 300m where its subsonic are amazing. The 17 HMR was only transonic for 11% of its flight distance (and makes shotgun like patterns) and this 38-55 remained tight for a transonic distance for 43% of the flight distance. Awesome twist in physics!

I am not sure where you are pulling your data from? In order for the bullet I was using to go transonic (1126 fps at 20*C...) at 265m (290 yards) my muzzle velocity would have had to been about 1636fps, OR, the ambient temperature would have had have been well above 200*C. Neither one of these is true...
The other thing to remember, it that this is not a 17HMR bullet shaped like a missile. Its a 255 grain bullet shaped like a bus. I am not going to get into the physics that tell us why these things happen, but I will say just because a bullet goes transonic does not mean that it loses its accuracy...depending on the bullet, of course.
Also, there have been plenty of fellers before me, that have shot this round far more accurately, at far greater distances.

R.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

Rman is that the best you can do or just everyday shooting? I'm pretty impressed.

Well, truth be told, I was a little hung over...

R.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

it's not the brass or the primer that will show the pressure. the large rifle primers are used at 60,000 psi without pressure signs.
you should have that at 30,000 psi in a 94 according my my book.
i wouldn't push it i know some guys push 45-70's in the same sort of fashion but hey not my gun...

Not really sure what other pressure signs he would have been asking for? Top end limit that CIP says for the 38-55 is about 35,000PSI with SAAMI saying 30,000CUP. Same rifle, but for the 30-30 it is CIP 46,000PSI, and SAAMI saying 38,000CUP...
A lot of this has to do with the barrel steel used for smokeless, and the barrel steel used for black powder, and the fact that no one wants to get sued...

Bottom line, I am more than comfortable with that load, in my rifle. It is certainly nothing I would try in anyone else's...

R.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by sns2

This is likely the most impressive display of "hunting shooting" I have seen. Just awesome. I bet your freezer is full. Great job!

Thank you for the compliment, but this was no means a hunting type situation.

But yes, my freezer is full.

R.

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by Rman

A lot of this has to do with the barrel steel used for smokeless, and the barrel steel used for black powder, and the fact that no one wants to get sued...

Bottom line, I am more than comfortable with that load, in my rifle. It is certainly nothing I would try in anyone else's...

R.

yup no one wants to get sued. those old cartridges always have a lower limit like that.

it sounds like you trust your rifle

[Rman]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

yup no one wants to get sued. those old cartridges always have a lower limit like that.

it sounds like you trust your rifle

That really had the most to with it.
The rifle is old, but it is still a Model 94, and I know the work that has been done to it, so yes, I trust it quite a bit.

R.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by Rman

Well, truth be told, I was a little hung over...

R.

Impressive. I'd like to see what happens when you get serious.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Rman

I am not sure where you are pulling your data from? In order for the bullet I was using to go transonic (1126 fps at 20*C...) at 265m (290 yards) my muzzle velocity would have had to been about 1636fps, OR, the ambient temperature would have had have been well above 200*C. Neither one of these is true...
The other thing to remember, it that this is not a 17HMR bullet shaped like a missile. Its a 255 grain bullet shaped like a bus. I am not going to get into the physics that tell us why these things happen, but I will say just because a bullet goes transonic does not mean that it loses its accuracy...depending on the bullet, of course.
Also, there have been plenty of fellers before me, that have shot this round far more accurately, at far greater distances.

R.

Your right! I fat fingered the muzzle velocity. That is a really sweet loading its almost like you designed it to work perfectly at 500 yards as it would be going transonic at the target. If there is a longer challenge would you heat that round some more to get the same result?

Actually, if you don't mind, can you please get into the physics of why a "17HMR bullet shaped like a missile" would lose more accuracy then a hurtling school bus?

As per the plenty of fellers that shoot that round further and more accurately, you are selling yourself short as this is amazing shooting!

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Your right! I fat fingered the muzzle velocity. That is a really sweet loading its almost like you designed it to work perfectly at 500 yards as it would be going transonic at the target. If there is a longer challenge would you heat that round some more to get the same result?

Actually, if you don't mind, can you please get into the physics of why a "17HMR bullet shaped like a missile" would lose more accuracy then a hurtling school bus?

As per the plenty of fellers that shoot that round further and more accurately, you are selling yourself short as this is amazing shooting!

I would like to know as well.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Your right! I fat fingered the muzzle velocity. That is a really sweet loading its almost like you designed it to work perfectly at 500 yards as it would be going transonic at the target. If there is a longer challenge would you heat that round some more to get the same result?

Actually, if you don't mind, can you please get into the physics of why a "17HMR bullet shaped like a missile" would lose more accuracy then a hurtling school bus?

As per the plenty of fellers that shoot that round further and more accurately, you are selling yourself short as this is amazing shooting!

I did want to get it to 500 yards, but I have shot that rifle past 500 as well with some success. I don't think I would try and get anymore out of it, as I feel I am already there, with regards to pressure vs performance. I have other loads for 100 and 300 yards, and tend to stick with those. They are more pleasant to shoot.

R.

[Bergerboy]

Rman. What range do you shoot at?

[Rman]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

I would like to know as well.

There isn't enough room to type it all out!!! And its all math and stuff!
A fellow named Bryan Litz wrote a really good book about external ballistics. And there is plenty of info in there regarding transonic flight.

Basically, as a bullet moves from super to sub sonic, air pressure moves forward towards the front of the bullet. This movement can effect the flight of the bullet. If the bullet is not well stabilized, it can't stay pointing forward, and will begin to yaw. A well stabilized bullet can go through the transonic zone more easily.
Other environmental effects (wind) can come into play to further cause the bullet to yaw.

R.

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by Rman

Thanks guys!

The rifle is a Model 94 in 38-55, with a bit of work done to it...

R.

Unbelievable! Just WOW.

I tried with a Finnlight 270wsm, Zeiss scope. I gave up after ten shots for zero.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Rman. What range do you shoot at?

I have access to private range set up south of town

R.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by nelsonob1

Unbelievable! Just WOW.

I tried with a Finnlight 270wsm, Zeiss scope. I gave up after ten shots for zero.

I didn't!!!!

R.

[edmhunter]

Originally Posted by Rman

OK! Pictures are here!

24" Target:

[IMG][/IMG]

Target and rifle:

[IMG][/IMG]

Rifle:

[IMG][/IMG]

R.

Awesome shooting Rman!

[58thecat]

That's impressive to say the least, sure would not like to be a trespasser who stopped way out to look back and flip you off, might have a belly ache.

[edmhunter]

I would like to add, from my personal experience on AO, and in regards to Rman, not only is he a great shot he is also a gentleman of the highest order.

[Hunter1602]

Originally Posted by Rman

OK! Pictures are here!

24" Target:

[IMG][/IMG]

Target and rifle:

[IMG][/IMG]

Rifle:

[IMG][/IMG]

R.

Thats a beauty rifle!!

[Gifted Intuitive]

If this off-hand challenge has you interested come an try the Rifle Metallic Silhouette sport.

Visit the website http://www.absilhouetteassoc.ca/

The 2015 schedule has not been posted yet.

The 500 metre target is a Ram and it measures about 26 inches X 32 inches.

If you are a member of the Sherwood Park F & G range, the club has 3/5 sized Rams.

Rifle Silhouette was a very popular sport at the SPF&G range but the sport was confiscated.

There should be 2 complete sets (chicken, pigs, turkey, rams) of 3/5th size targets.

[Coho911]

What do you mean the 'Sport was Confiscated' ?

Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive

If this off-hand challenge has you interested come an try the Rifle Metallic Silhouette sport.

Visit the website http://www.absilhouetteassoc.ca/

The 2015 schedule has not been posted yet.

The 500 metre target is a Ram and it measures about 26 inches X 32 inches.

If you are a member of the Sherwood Park F & G range, the club has 3/5 sized Rams.

Rifle Silhouette was a very popular sport at the SPF&G range but the sport was confiscated.

There should be 2 complete sets (chicken, pigs, turkey, rams) of 3/5th size targets.