Five reasons to BAN Spears and Atlatls

[huntinstuff]

My spear is almost done and I will hunt with it this year

If I had talent and coordination, Id have an atlatl too

[sdkidaho]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Wow. Pardon my description but that organization or individual that put that together is a douche.

Why don't Sportsmen get it? If you start to ban the hunting practices of others, what makes you think that your way of hunting isn't next? Sportsmen should stick together and show a united front against "anti-hunters". They shouldn't have to defend themselves against other "hunters".

If it's one guy in the organization that put that together, I'd fire him as he doesn't get it.

You Canadians REALLY need to contact these people via email. It only takes a moment to send an email to all of them. If you let them take this away, you will never know what's next!

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Write these people if you want to help keep Spears and Atlatls legal.
Be sure to ask for a response.


Allen, Jim
Head - Wildlife Management Policy
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development
E-mail: james.allen@gov.ab.ca


Rob Corrigan
Provincial Big Game Specialist Game and Priority Species
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development
E-mail: rob.corrigan@gov.ab.ca



Pat Dunford
Head, Legislative and Advisory Services
Email: Pat.Dunford@gov.ab.ca


Ian Stuart
Alberta Fish and Game association - (Hunting Chair)
Email: mooseridge2@gmail.com


Brent Watson
Alberta Bowhunters Association - President
Email: brent@albertabowhunters.com


SCI Alberta
Peter McMahon – Director
Email sherwoodguides@gmail.com

[sdkidaho]

Originally Posted by sdkidaho

You Canadians REALLY need to contact these people via email. It only takes a moment to send an email to all of them. If you let them take this away, you will never know what's next!

Bear hunting with hounds.
It's so cruel to chase a poor bear with dogs!

Bear baiting.
It's too easy to kill a bear over bait and you might bring in protected species.

Archery
It isn't humane. The poor animal has to suffer even when the mean old hunter makes a good shot!

Rifle
It's too dangerous. Too many people could get killed by a poorly placed shot.

And so on and so forth... This is why Sportsmen need to stick together. There are plenty of anti's out there willing to take the sport away, lets not do their job for them!

[calgarychef]

You'll never get Brent Watson or the ABA to come here and give their official position. Now that Brent and crew have opened the Pandora's box and pushed the Atlatl dudes under the bus all they have to do is sit back and say " its out our hands now and up to SRD."

I challenged Brent in a private email to come here and state their "new" position and he stated that "no one comes to AO anymore and its a poor way to communicate with the masses." Of course he can always fall back on the position that he needs only communicate with the members of the ABA.

As far as expecting Brent to man up and admit that they made several errors in their handling of this, it'll never happen. Will he admit that they circumvented the rules of their executive procedures? Nope. He won't even admit that they started out suggesting the "banning" of atlatls even though it's there in black and white now he says " it was all a misunderstanding."

Face it boys, Brent and crew won this one and the big losers were the spear chuckers, flint knappers, self bow makers etc.

What a shameful way for an organization to conduct themselves.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

You'll never get Brent Watson or the ABA to come here and give their official position. Now that Brent and crew have opened the Pandora's box and pushed the Atlatl dudes under the bus all they have to do is sit back and say " its out our hands now and up to SRD."

I challenged Brent in a private email to come here and state their "new" position and he stated that "no one comes to AO anymore and its a poor way to communicate with the masses." Of course he can always fall back on the position that he needs only communicate with the members of the ABA.

As far as expecting Brent to man up and admit that they made several errors in their handling of this, it'll never happen. Will he admit that they circumvented the rules of their executive procedures? Nope. He won't even admit that they started out suggesting the "banning" of atlatls even though it's there in black and white now he says " it was all a misunderstanding."

Face it boys, Brent and crew won this one and the big losers were the spear chuckers, flint knappers, self bow makers etc.

What a shameful way for an organization to conduct themselves.

It is typical after all it's the ABA...just a bunch of figure heads occupying space!

[sdkidaho]

Looks like you guys need to email everyone on this page as well, then:

http://www.bowhunters.ca/Executive_Contact.html

[sdkidaho]

I sent this and received a rather quick response:

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 3:10 PM
To: len@albertabowhunters.com; lance@albertabowhunters.com;
john@albertabowhunters.com; darin@albertabowhunters.com;
gord@albertabowhunters.com; sean@albertabowhunters.com;
terry@albertabowhunters.com; rob@albertabowhunters.com;
jesse@albertabowhunters.com; mike@albertabowhunters.com;
cole@albertabowhunters.com; dale@albertabowhunters.com;
brent@albertabowhunters.com There

Subject: Bowhunters

Hello,

I've just seen the proposal to make the use of spears and atlatls illegal
for big game hunting in Alberta.

I cannot express how disappointed I am in Hunters that would even for a
moment think that it is alright to try and take hunting rights away from
other groups. This has to be one of the most foolish and selfish things a
Hunter could do. These things never end well as it only provides fuel to
the anti-hunting groups. It allows them to gain a foothold when they see
Sportsmen turning on each other.

As bowhunters I would think that you would understand more than most, what
it means to need the support of the hunting community. There are certainly
arguments about which weapons kill the fastest, the most effectively and
most ethically, and while a spear or atlatl isn't on the top of that list,
neither is a bow.

Whoever in your organization put this together should be ashamed. The
thought that the sport of archery is more important than any other method of
take will only help to bring ruin to the sport of hunting as a whole. I
would urge you to recant this statement and point of view and instead, fight
for the rights of your fellow sportsmen to hunt how they wish to, as long as
they do so legally. To do otherwise is a disservice to the sport of hunting,
no matter what your weapon of choice is.

Sincerely,
Darby

Response:

Hi Darby -- thanks for the feedback. I have attached the "Summary of Facts"
that the ABA put together back in January and it explains the history of
this issue, the processes involved, the various meetings we have been at
where the subject has been discussed, the discussion points from those
meetings etc. etc. Have also included the copy of the letter to Alberta
Outdoorsman magazine editor and publisher Rob Miskosky on TJ Schwanky's
article in the March issue. Also the preamble on this information -- all of
it will be in our next ABA newsletter and is available on our website
(www.bowhunters.ca). There are lots of rumor and misinformation floating
around on the issue.
This issue is a "Discussion" item -- there is a great deal of concern in the
hunting community on some of the equipment and methods that now are
unregulated and how they affect us all as hunters. Why do some equipment
require minimum standards and not others. Etc Etc. If and when the
stakeholders are presented with something formal as far as a proposal from
ESRD goes in "defining legal equipment for hunting big game in Alberta" then
we will take that information/proposal to the ABA membership (as will all
the other stakeholders listed in the summary), bring a motion forward (to
support whole or in part or not at all, etc) at the next ABA AGM and
forward those results to ESRD.
Again, this issue is in "discussion" and there has been lots of discussion
for sure. As things evolve, more information is made available etc we will
be communicating that to the ABA membership.

brent

Attachments:

ABA Define equipment brief april 1

Spear/Atlatl Issue – Defining Legal Equipment
(Jan 15 2014 – updated Mar 25 2014)

This issue popped up a couple of years ago when ABA President Brent Watson had two ABA members contact him about the use of spears/atlatls in Alberta, what they had seen on YouTube and one had a friend who had used a spear on a bear. Several TV shows on WILD TV also showed spears being used for hunting bears and bison/hogs. Brent checked with the ESRD head of enforcement (Pat Dunford) and he said there were no laws on the books not allowing them, etc. They had a few negative comments made to them but nothing really more than that. Brent brought the issue up at an ABA exec meeting June 18 2012 after he raised the question at the AGMAG (Alberta Game Management Advisory Group) meeting in May 2012 to get the opinions of other stakeholders.
(AGMAG is a group of ESRD personnel and stakeholders (with a varying degree of focus) that meet two times a year to discuss a wide range of issues related to hunting and game management in Alberta. The information and issues brought to these meetings by all parties is discussed. Some issues are resolved right away but many can be “complicated” and are deferred for more discussion. The member groups take these issues and disseminate the information out to their membership to educate them on the issues, to get feedback, gauge support, etc. The ABA gets this type of information to its members through its quarterly newsletter, on its website, through its email list of clubs and members, at its annual AGM and regular executive meetings. The feedback and level of support for any issue is then taken to the next AGMAG meeting.)(A similar process occurs for the Hunting For Tomorrow stakeholder meetings)

The following is from the minutes of our ABA exec meeting that June.

AGMAG mtg (May)
Hunting with spears
Discussion as to issue brought up at AGMAG. Possible public reaction if it became public. How we as hunting groups can defend the practice - very hard. SRD Enforcement will bring issue back to Dec AGMAG with proposal to prohibit hunting with spears. Was no opposition from groups at AGMAG.

ESRD came back to the May 29 2013 AGMAG meeting and explained how there are no rules concerning using atlatls/spears as well as some other equipment/methods out there (and since that 2013 meeting there are people asking about high power air rifles, blow guns, dropping rocks out of treestands, using remote powered helicopters and drones to push or scout for game, even people wanting to run down and kill game with their bare hands). The stakeholder members and ESRD personnel at the meeting discussed the issue, how hard if not impossible it would be to defend the use of these equipment types/methods based on all the other criteria we use to defend what we use now as hunters, how negative a public response (from hunters and non-hunters both) would likely be when something hit social media (based on past experiences/responses etc on similar issues – examples are coyote hunting with hounds which became illegal (unless you have a certain permit for depredation) two days after a houndsman did a taped interview and hunt with CTV Edmonton several years ago and the Vancouver Canucks player David Booth who legally killed a black bear with his bow in Alberta over bait two years ago. Many were surprised that these types of now unregulated equipment types could be used for hunting big game in Alberta. From that the ABA drafted up a change proposal (using the ESRD standardized template they have asked all us stakeholders to use and one we have had in our newsletter for several years) on behalf of the AGMAG stakeholders to have it officially put on the agenda, into the processes for discussion etc. We agree now that the wording should have been “different” and changed to what it is now -- “define legal big game hunting equipment” -- but it was a way to start the discussion.

From the May 29 2013 AGMAG Minutes:

• ABA – Make use of spears and atlatls illegal for hunting big game in AB.
o Full support from AGMAG to define legal big game hunting equipment.

AGMAG stakeholders present at that meeting were:
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development, Alberta Tourism, Parks, and Recreation, Alberta Chapter of the Wildlife Society, Alberta Fish and Game Association, Wild Sheep Foundation of Alberta, Hunting For Tomorrow, Safari Club International, AB Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Alberta Bowhunters Association, Wild Elk Federation, Delta Waterfowl Foundation, Alberta Beef Producers, Alberta Professional Outfitters Society, Alberta Chapter of the Wildlife Society. (Not present were Ducks Unlimited and Pheasants Forever).

At the Hunting For Tomorrow stakeholders meeting (again stakeholders and ESRD discussing hunting issues/meet twice a year) December 17 2013 the issue was discussed and all members present were in favor of ESRD looking to define what equipment should be legal to hunt big game. ABA hasn’t got copies of those meeting minutes yet. The stakeholders present at this meeting were Alberta Fish & Game Association, Hunting For Tomorrow, Alberta Bowhunters Association, Alberta Professional Outfitters Society, Alberta Hunter Education Instructors Association. Several other stakeholders could not make this meeting but all will get the minutes. Representatives from ESRD were also there to provide information on issues as questions from the stakeholders came up. Several reps were shocked/surprised to find out there were no rules governing these types of equipment types/methods.

The next AGMAG Meeting was January 14 2014 and more discussion among the stakeholders/ESRD of AGMAG on the issue took place and we all were asked to get more feedback from our respective groups. This type of regulation change is a major one and these changes will only occur in “odd” years – next change for these types of issues will be for the 2015 hunting season.

At the ABA AGM March 29 2014 in Lethbridge we will bring this up for discussion and give everyone the background info etc and see what the members think. There will be a report in the next newsletter (should be out in a month or so) outlining this and a couple of other things we are working on (archery season draw proposal, the Mule Deer Management Review process and our ABA questionnaire for feedback on the state of our mule deer). We will get feedback from our members and take that forward to the next series of AGMAG (May and December 2014) and HFT meetings.

This statement paper is to explain and educate people as to the processes involved, more details on the issues, chance for feedback, etc. For any who support the use of spears/atlatls/blow guns/high power air rifles etc. etc., they need to draft up something showing how effective the tools are for a quick, humane kill, what the minimum equipment requirements need to be to provide that (just like other equipment types/components – rifles, bows, crossbows, muzzleloaders, shotguns, ammunition, arrows – did in the past and currently have in the Alberta regulations for hunting big game) and present this to those who will make the regulatory changes if needed/warranted. With the current equipment definitions and minimum standards we can argue that there will be a quick, humane kill the majority of the time. The operator is the weak link and education/peer pressure can strengthen that link. In the case of these other equipment types/methods, that changes dramatically to a minority of the time.
There needs to be defense arguments when media, anti hunting groups, Joe public, other hunters, politicians, Government Ministers start asking questions about the use of these tools/equipment types. It is not a matter of “if” but “when” we as hunters and hunting groups are going to be asked about these types of hunting tools/equipment/methods and we need to be able to convince those who are asking the questions that they indeed are defendable. This discussion and the processes that will follow are much like the changes to standards the trapping industry had to undertake to ensure trapping continued and Alberta now has the toughest, most humane standards in the world. We are now in a society that requires us as hunters to be proactive, have well laid out plans to defend what we do, have those plans ready at a moment’s notice.


Send your thoughts/feedback to Brent@albertabowhunters.com


Updates as of April 1 2015

This issue was on the agenda and then discussed at the ABA AGM in Lethbridge on March 29 2014. Handouts of this summary and the letter to the publisher/editor of Alberta Outdoorsman magazine were made available. 36 people were in attendance. The discussion centered around the FACTS as outlined in the summary. Some discussion as to the rumors circulating and how the ABA will move forward to counter those rumors and get the FACTS out to the membership and the general hunting community. The ABA will extend the newsletter “deadline for renewal” one more issue to all 2013 and 2014 members to allow the dissemination of the summary and letter to AO to get the facts to as much of the membership as possible. Will create a link to our website where this information is available and put that in the ABA newsletter and in our email list mail outs so people can get the information in its entirety.

An ABA member was present who makes and uses atlatls. He asked about how to get information to the various meetings. From the minutes of this 2014 AGM:

MOTION – “Allow ABA to take general information for discussion to AGMAG/HFT meetings on spear/atlatl use on behalf of Robert Edwards.” 2nd by Mark Barber. FOR – 21. AGAINST – 5. ABSTAIN – 2
Robert Edwards will do up his information package and the ABA will forward it for him to the contacts for the AGMAG/HFT meetings. Just being the courier for the information he supplies.

*MOTION – By Mark Barber “I move to have the ABA use the terms tools, equipment, implement of harvest and do not use the term “weapon” in any correspondance/publications.” Discussion indicates the definition of weapon refers to harm to humans. HFT has made this change already. 2nd Brad Keith. FOR – 26
*(Further to this motion, all references to the word “weapon” have been changed in the summary above to “equipment” except for any references that were in “minutes” of any meeting).

**MOTION – By Mark Barber “Have the ABA take the above motion to AGMAG to do similar changes in the Alberta Hunting Regulations and literature (re: dictionary definition of weapon).” 2nd Brad Keith. FOR – unanimous
BW will work with Mark Barber to do an official change request on the template ESRD wants stakeholders to use.
**(The official change request has been done and will be forwarded to the next AGMAG meeting in May 2015.)
.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

AO letter mar 2014

Alberta Bowhunters Association
Box 89021 Mckenzie Towne
Calgary, Alberta
T2Z 3W3
www.bowhunters.ca

Sports Scene Publications Inc.
(Alberta Outdoorsman magazine)
Suite 100, 10642-178 Street
Edmonton, Alberta
T5S 1H4

March 25, 2014

Dear Rob:
The Alberta Bowhunters Association (ABA) would like to address the article that TJ Schwanky wrote in the March 2014 issue of the Alberta Outdoorsman magazine regarding the “spear/atlatl” issue and the references made of and about the Alberta Bowhunters Association. Some of this has also spilled over to the Alberta Outdoorsman Forum.
While this is an important issue for all of us in the Alberta hunting community, TJ has provided a very poorly informed perspective, made several inaccurate assumptions and incorrectly summarized the position of the ABA on hunting big game in Alberta with these weapons. TJ mentions several times he does not understand why the ABA did this, why they think this, etc. It is disappointing that TJ chose not to contact myself or any member of our executive in preparing this article. In fact, in the previous nine years I have been ABA president, TJ has contacted me/the ABA only ONCE to discuss an issue. As president and as an executive, we learned very early on that if someone tells you something (no matter what their confidence level is with this person and what they have to tell you) that you personally check the story and information out with the source (individual or organization) who supposedly said it. It is surprising at what the truth really might be.
The ABA is committed to both promoting and defending the opportunities of hunters in Alberta. While it is true that the organization has a bowhunting focus, since its inception in 1956 we have both led and supported initiatives that benefit all hunters in Alberta (examples of these initiatives include black bear baiting, expanded seasons for black bear, Sunday hunting, revamping cougar management, the bighorn sheep and mule deer management plan reviews, allow hunting of red squirrel on private land, the 2009 Hunting, Fishing and Trapping Heritage Act). We have been a key stakeholder member at the Alberta Game Management Advisory Group (AGMAG) meetings since it was established in 2011 and continue to work with ESRD and other stakeholders/hunting organizations to ensure the future of hunting.
We are a very transparent organization to our membership, government and the hunting community. We have always been very open on any issue we have been involved in and make a concentrated effort to argue/debate with facts and research to back up a position, an idea. We listen to the counter arguments/debates with professionalism and respect – we may not agree totally but it is important to listen to the “other side of the story”, to understand others and their points of view. Any key issues are discussed through executive meetings and email networking, at our annual general meeting. Members are formally surveyed for their input and feedback, can submit regulation change suggestions. We gather feedback from the general bowhunting community. This information and feedback is presented at the various meetings we attend throughout the year and we can then accurately represent the ABA, its members and the general bowhunter.
The ABA prepared a two page summary of the issue – its points, discussion items, the history etc. -- on January 15, 2014 (updated March 25 2014) and have circulated that to several interested parties who had contacted us about the issue. Its availability has been mentioned in our newsletter and is posted on our website (www.bowhunters.ca). The issue and the summary has been discussed at several ABA executive meetings and will be discussed at our AGM March 29 at the next banquet/convention in Lethbridge. It is a working document and will be updated as things evolve subsequent to future meetings and developments. The discussion has definitely evolved both within our organization and with other stakeholders/ESRD. The current discussion on “defining legal weapons for hunting big game in Alberta” is no different than what happened in the past for rifles, bows, crossbows, muzzleloaders, shotguns, ammunition, arrows, etc that set minimum standards, made them “legal”.
I have attached the two page summary of this issue that we prepared. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me personally (Brent@albertabowhunters.com Cell ***-***-****). If you see any other articles that cross your desk and reference the ABA, we would appreciate you touching bases with us so we can verify the “story” – good or bad doesn’t matter as long as it is truthful and factual, respectful and professional.

Thank you

Brent Watson
2014 ABA President

Preamble to AO Letter for nletter

Preamble to defining equipment summary /AO Letter

There has been a great deal of misinformation and rumor going around on the issue of “defining legal equipment for big game hunting in Alberta”. We have included the 2 page discussion summary that we prepared to state the facts, the history, the processes involved. We also included the letter we sent March 25 2014 to the editor/publisher of Alberta Outdoorsman magazine addressing some reporting issues in an article by TJ Schwanky in the March 2014 issue. Following Mr. Schwanky’s email responses starting April 3rd, we concluded the communications April 12th with the following : “All any of us can hope for is a fair and accurate reporting of the facts and not the rumors, be objective and open minded. We supplied the facts in the summary and you/Alberta Outdoorsman can use as you see fit - that is out of our control. It is confusing as to your unwillingness to understand and respect the facts of the matter, the processes involved, the history as stated in the summary. Both in the written article and in your email responses following our letter. We are not sure how more pointed and detailed you need the descriptions of the inaccuracies of your column as we have outlined and communicated to you/AO. Any subsequent rumors involving the ABA that cross yours/AO desk please feel free to contact me/ABA at any time. We are always available.” As the issue is discussed we will continue to provide information to the membership through the newsletter, emails, on our website.
This “defining legal equipment for big game hunting in Alberta” issue will be handled as other issues have been in the past. The ABA attends 2 AGMAG meetings and 2 Hunting For Tomorrow meetings a year that are also attended by upper ESRD personal and many stakeholders. Many, many issues are brought forward for discussion by various groups, ESRD, by individuals through a group. These issues are discussed and in many cases the stakeholders are asked for feedback from their membership. The respective groups take these issues back to their membership for feedback – in particular for us are those issues that pertain to bowhunting, hunting in general that are of importance to the ABA membership and bowhunters. In the case of this “issue”, it is still at the discussion level. ESRD has not presented a final proposal; we nor any other stakeholder has been asked for their “position.” If and when that time comes, we will forward the ESRD proposal to our membership through all our communication methods, garner feedback and have the members vote on the ESRD Proposal at the next ABA AGM relative to the announcement of any such proposal. The result of that will be forwarded immediately to ESRD. Regardless of how the stakeholders vote or support an issue, ESRD do make the final decision.
For more info, contact Brent@albertabowhunters.com.

I removed his cell number. His email is published for anyone to see. If you want his cell, you contact him and ask for it. Other than that, I modified nothing.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sdkidaho

Wow. Pardon my description but that organization or individual that put that together is a douche.

Why don't Sportsmen get it? If you start to ban the hunting practices of others, what makes you think that your way of hunting isn't next? Sportsmen should stick together and show a united front against "anti-hunters". They shouldn't have to defend themselves against other "hunters".

If it's one guy in the organization that put that together, I'd fire him as he doesn't get it.

You Canadians REALLY need to contact these people via email. It only takes a moment to send an email to all of them. If you let them take this away, you will never know what's next!

What's a douche?

What do you think of the ABA's updated issue explanation?


The ABA put that information up on their webpage last week. The continued dodging of admitting the facts of what the executive did and their current position continues. This is certainly not a surprise anymore, the executive continue to make proposals to the AGMAG group without first having the required membership notice and vote....


The ABA is continuing to bluff their way through this issue, even offering misleading information to their membership. For example, from the ABA letter to AO magazine.

" In the case of this “issue”, it is still at the discussion level. ESRD has not presented a final proposal; we nor any other stakeholder has been asked for their “position.” If and when that time comes, we will forward the ESRD proposal to our membership through all our communication methods, garner feedback and have the members vote on the ESRD Proposal at the next ABA AGM relative to the announcement of any such proposal. The result of that will be forwarded immediately to ESRD. "


F&W has already offered a proposed Weapon definition, which I posted here back on April 8. http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showp...&postcount=274

The intention of the ABA to have a "vote" at the following AGM on a Final proposal is designed to be irrelevant. The next ABA AGM will be in March/April 2015 while the Final Decision by F&W will be made BEFORE then. What is the point is having a vote AFTER F&W have already decided and finalized the changes?



I suggest that the ABA executives stop playing ostrich and state the position they they will lobby for now, before the next AGMAG meeting May 28, 2014.
Do I think they will? Not a chance. The executive have been asked many times to state their position over the last month and they have yet to give an answer. This is very sad that the leaders of this organization are not willing to tell their membership what they will do when representing them.

[albertaatlatl]

Great reply WB! We need to, still, address this issue with a no holds barred mindset! The executive(s) behind this farce need to be brought on the carpet!

[sdkidaho]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

What's a douche?

What do you think of the ABA's updated issue explanation?

Douche:
Slang: Vulgar. a contemptible or despicable person.

What do I think of their updated explanation... If I had to guess, I'd say a bowhunter, possibly the guy that started this, had his bow hunt interrupted by a spear chucker. Seems more like a personal vendetta than something that is actually needed.

If whoever started this is so bored as to dream this up without having a personal reason for it, well... that guy has too much time on his hands and could have spent his time and efforts elsewhere, for the betterment of the sport. This action is NOT for the betterment of anything other than an anti-hunter style agenda.

[Okotokian]

I've never seen a supposed "hunting" organization work so hard to oppose or restrict other hunters. Give them a little more time and they will wade into the gun control debate, on the anti side, just to get rid of the competition.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I've never seen a supposed "hunting" organization work so hard to oppose or restrict other hunters. Give them a little more time and they will wade into the gun control debate, on the anti side, just to get rid of the competition.

No doubt, just a thought but maybe all of us who would like to use these methods should push to get these methods allowed in the archery season. Instead of just defending there use push for a little bit more.
From what I understand they are going to define weapons next year and they might as well define the seasons that some of the weapons belong in.
The only reasonable explanation for the ABA opening this can of worms and then standing on the sidelines is that they can't defend keeping them out of the archery season.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I've never seen a supposed "hunting" organization work so hard to oppose or restrict other hunters. Give them a little more time and they will wade into the gun control debate, on the anti side, just to get rid of the competition.

Get real okotokian. Do you really think that? Just remember brent is appointed to his seat. After all of this I bet he is not going to be president much longer. HE is on a PERSONAL vendetta...

Originally Posted by dmcbride

No doubt, just a thought but maybe all of us who would like to use these methods should push to get these methods allowed in the archery season. Instead of just defending there use push for a little bit more.
From what I understand they are going to define weapons next year and they might as well define the seasons that some of the weapons belong in.
The only reasonable explanation for the ABA opening this can of worms and then standing on the sidelines is that they can't defend keeping them out of the archery season.

They will define the season. Archery will stay the same and all others that are aloud after the change will be in the open season. Pretty simple. Why is it every body now wants all of these changes? Who do you have a personal ventta with?

[albertaatlatl]

Maybe we will push for the use of these in the Archery Season. Why not?

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

They will define the season. Archery will stay the same and all others that are aloud after the change will be in the open season. Pretty simple. Why is it every body now wants all of these changes? Who do you have a personal ventta with?

I think everybody wants these changes because these methods belong in the archery season.

So you think that a method that requires a person to get close to there prey and has to move just as much as a archer to get a shot off, if not more belongs in the general season? Could you explain why spears and altatls do not belong in the archery season? They are both just as primitive as archery and just as difficult to be successful if not more. Are the spear and altalts hunters going to over harvest? Do they have advantages that archers don't? The only so called vendetta I have is with those that seem to think that archers need to have there own special season with nothing else allowed even thou the success rate of some other methods is lower and more difficult to become proficient. Aren't these the same reasons that started the archery season in the first place? If not why do we have a archery season in the fist place?

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by albertaatlatl

Maybe we will push for the use of these in the Archery Season. Why not?

I hope someone can answer the why not because for the life of me I can not think of any justified reason other than just because some elite archers say so.

[Tox]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I hope someone can answer the why not because for the life of me I can not think of any justified reason other than just because some elite archers say so.

They cannot be used in archery season because as per regulations, which is law, these tools are not archery equipment as defined by regulation. Interestingly, there are jurisdictions in North America that define crossbows as archery equipment but do not allow them in archery season while at the same time do not allow any compound set at over 85% let off in any season. ????

What is an elite archer? Is it a Olympic archer? Is it someone that chooses to only hunt with archery equipment? Or is it just a term you use for a person that you disagree with that has chosen a specific way they prefer to hunt?

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Get real okotokian. Do you really think that?

No. It was meant sarcastically. It merely an extremely unlikely but representative example of how the ABA looks after the interests of it's members to the detriment of anyone else.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I think everybody wants these changes because these methods belong in the archery season.

So you think that a method that requires a person to get close to there prey and has to move just as much as a archer to get a shot off, if not more belongs in the general season? Could you explain why spears and altatls do not belong in the archery season? They are both just as primitive as archery and just as difficult to be successful if not more. Are the spear and altalts hunters going to over harvest? Do they have advantages that archers don't? The only so called vendetta I have is with those that seem to think that archers need to have there own special season with nothing else allowed even thou the success rate of some other methods is lower and more difficult to become proficient. Aren't these the same reasons that started the archery season in the first place? If not why do we have a archery season in the fist place?

Read definitions of archery. A spear is not and does not fall in the same category. Just like a knife. Do you want that next in archery season?. I can not believe what some of you waste your time fighting for. Our province has a huge miss management issue and all you guys can do is come on here and whine about what you don't get. I personally do not agree with a spear but am not joining any bandwagon to ban them. Right now you are aloud to use one but I feel that is not going to be the case in a very short time. Pick your fight and stick to it. If you go for everything you will end up with nothing.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Tox

They cannot be used in archery season because as per regulations, which is law, these tools are not archery equipment as defined by regulation. Interestingly, there are jurisdictions in North America that define crossbows as archery equipment but do not allow them in archery season while at the same time do not allow any compound set at over 85% let off in any season. ????

What is an elite archer? Is it a Olympic archer? Is it someone that chooses to only hunt with archery equipment? Or is it just a term you use for a person that you disagree with that has chosen a specific way they prefer to hunt?

well said.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

No. It was meant sarcastically. It merely an extremely unlikely but representative example of how the ABA looks after the interests of it's members to the detriment of anyone else.

Wrong again. Brent Watson was and is the only one looking out for himself. The ABA stands for a lot more than this crap. I feel bad for all members that did not have a say.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Tox

They cannot be used in archery season because as per regulations, which is law, these tools are not archery equipment as defined by regulation. Interestingly, there are jurisdictions in North America that define crossbows as archery equipment but do not allow them in archery season while at the same time do not allow any compound set at over 85% let off in any season. ????

What is an elite archer? Is it a Olympic archer? Is it someone that chooses to only hunt with archery equipment? Or is it just a term you use for a person that you disagree with that has chosen a specific way they prefer to hunt?

Well we all know what the regulations are. Doesn't necessarily mean that it is right. Laws and regulations change everyday which is part of what this thread is all about. Interestingly there are also places that allow crossbows in the archery season. I don't want to get into crossbows as there is already another thread.

As for the elite archer, I hunt with a bow, but I am not apposed to having other methods that have the similar success rates and require close range hunting. What I consider the elite archer is someone who is close minded and isn't open to anything but there own personal agenda. I would really like to know the reasoning for not having some of these methods in the archery season. I can't think of any legitimate reasons. Maybe I am missing something and if I am that is fine but at least I am open to the possibility of change if it has valid reasons.

[Tox]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Well we all know what the regulations are. Doesn't necessarily mean that it is right. Laws and regulations change everyday which is part of what this thread is all about. Interestingly there are also places that allow crossbows in the archery season. I don't want to get into crossbows as there is already another thread.

As for the elite archer, I hunt with a bow, but I am not apposed to having other methods that have the similar success rates and require close range hunting. What I consider the elite archer is someone who is close minded and isn't open to anything but there own personal agenda. I would really like to know the reasoning for not having some of these methods in the archery season. I can't think of any legitimate reasons. Maybe I am missing something and if I am that is fine but at least I am open to the possibility of change if it has valid reasons.

The legitimate reason these tools are not included in the archery season is that by regulation they are not archery equipment. Was not trying to get into a crossbow debate, just illustrating that regulations do not always make sense. The issue with alberta regulations is that in defining legal equipment it, it describes what is not allowed. Min. caliber, min. draw weight, min arrow length, etc. If it is not defined it must be legal because it doesn't say it's illegal. It actually doesn't say anything at all.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Tox

The legitimate reason these tools are not included in the archery season is that by regulation they are not archery equipment. Was not trying to get into a crossbow debate, just illustrating that regulations do not always make sense. The issue with alberta regulations is that in defining legal equipment it, it describes what is not allowed. Min. caliber, min. draw weight, min arrow length, etc. If it is not defined it must be legal because it doesn't say it's illegal. It actually doesn't say anything at all.

I realize it doesn't say anything about spears or atlatls. I guess what I'm getting at is, if or when they are defined in 2015 what season do they belong in and why.

[mgvande]

That does it! I'm getting one. All this hoopla have peaked my interest. Look out deer.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Wrong again. Brent Watson was and is the only one looking out for himself. The ABA stands for a lot more than this crap. I feel bad for all members that did not have a say.

Do we really need to rehash the crossbow debate again? It's not just one rogue president on one isolated issue. You sounds like a member, and I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anything. It just appears to me that the ABA has been pretty forceful in creating a bow season (good for them) and also ensuring no other weapons can be used during it. This issue just LOOKS like more of the same. Peraps it's just bad optics and not intent.

[beansgunsghandi]

Now I want one too…

I don't think the, "Sportsmen must always stick together" argument is all that solid. Some "hunting" practices are clearly very damaging to our standing as legitimate land users, and make us look far worse as a group than spears or Atlais ever would. Good discussion and examination of what we're doing is a good thing I figure, most of the above is that so great.

However, I think many on here would be surprised by how pro-hunting many of the "granolas" actually are. Surprisingly, many non-hunters view bow hunting as more legitimate than rifle hunting. Atlais and spears wouldn't really freak them out more, and I bet a lot of the non-hunting world would see it as more sporting and "fairer." Insert arguments here, but we're killing wild animals, the method of that kill is either irrelevant or seen as more ethical if done by human power to the relatively few true "antis" I run into. I think you'd get some serious respect at MEC (and you'd be surprised how many hunters work there…) if you offered a class on traditional African hunting where you ran the deer down in the Rockies...

As I read the letters and reasoning above from the ABA I am not impressed at all. What a narrow, reactionary and unfounded viewpoint.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Do we really need to rehash the crossbow debate again? It's not just one rogue president on one isolated issue. You sounds like a member, and I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anything. It just appears to me that the ABA has been pretty forceful in creating a bow season (good for them) and also ensuring no other weapons can be used during it. This issue just LOOKS like more of the same. Peraps it's just bad optics and not intent.

#1 Crossbow thing DEAD! It has been voted on province wide. #2 I am not and will never be a member of the ABA. Brent and a few have went rouge and I feel need to be replaced in there organization. #3 The ABA did not have anything to do with the creating of the archery season in Alberta to my knowledge. They are fighting to get back what archery guys have lost due to False info being used by SRD. The new season will also ensure a more sound game management system for our herds instead of a free for all.

As for spears they are not archery gear so if they are aloud this season leave them were they are.

[Tox]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

#1 Crossbow thing DEAD! It has been voted on province wide. #2 I am not and will never be a member of the ABA. Brent and a few have went rouge and I feel need to be replaced in there organization. #3 The ABA did not have anything to do with the creating of the archery season in Alberta to my knowledge. They are fighting to get back what archery guys have lost due to False info being used by SRD. The new season will also ensure a more sound game management system for our herds instead of a free for all.

As for spears they are not archery gear so if they are aloud this season leave them were they are.

The ABAA (Alberta Bowhunters and Archers Association) is the ABA. Who is responsible for creating the archery seasons in your opinion?

In 1956, the Alberta Provincial Archery Association and the Edmonton Bowhunters joined to form the Alberta Bowhunters and Archers Association.
The number one goal of this new association was to legalize bowhunting in the Province of Alberta.
This goal was acheived in 1957 and in 1958 a Bowhunter named Ray Anderson harvested the first legal animal in the Province of Alberta with a Bow and Arrow! Armed with his trusty 85 pound Howard Hill Longbow and using 3/8th inch birch dowell tipped with a Howard Hill Broadhead, Ray harvested a cow elk!
The 42 members of the newly formed ABAA then set out on their next quest, to lobby government for changes to the Fish and Wildlife Act that related directly to bowhunters.
Bowhunters had to comply with the same rules governing gun hunters in respect to clothing, season length and even the Bucks and Bulls rule.
The first "Bow and Arrow Only" zone was established and called Zone 8. This zone is still a Bow zone and is known world wide as WMU 410, the Canmore Corridor!
In 1969 the ABAA was able to secure some changes in the F&W Act.
Bowhunters are allowed to wear camoflauge clothing.
Seasons are lengthened for bowhunters.
In 1970, the Government agreed to allow the use of aluminium arrows for the first time.
In 1974, the Government instituted a Bowhunting license (stamp) to better count the number of bowhunters in the province. The cost of this original stamp was $3.00 and the first year there were 34 bowhunters licensed in the province. This number doubled the next year and with the phenomenal growth of the sport has increased to approx. 16,000 bowhunters in the Province of Alberta.
In 1975, the Government set aside two more "Bow and Arrow Only" zones in the province. One surrounds the City of Edmonton in the northern part of the province and one around Calgary in the south. Both of these zones are very productive and with proper management will last for years to come.
In 1976-77, the ABAA successfully won the fight for "archery only" ( pre-season ) seasons. The ABAA was also successful in getting the Archery Antelope draw in place.

20 years to create archer seasons.1956 to 1976. Pre seasons over and above hunting season. Would you expect any less from an organization to protect what they have fought for?

Everyone makes mistakes, was the spear/atlatl proposal a mistake? Maybe. Would I stop supporting a group for one mistake? Not likely. It's odd how so many focus on one issue when there is so much other good going on. Does anyone comment on how the ABA provides funding to HFT, NASP, donates to it's affiliated clubs in merchandise? And all this after they do NOT receive any government funding. And, can NOT fund raise in the form of casinos.

Put down an association because you didn't like the actions or opinions of one or two people. You think you can do a better job? STEP UP.
Archery seasons do not take opportunity away from anyone other than those that chose not to participate.
I don't see this conversation moving forward. Just more bashing and going in circles.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Tox

The ABAA (Alberta Bowhunters and Archers Association) is the ABA. Who is responsible for creating the archery seasons in your opinion?

In 1956, the Alberta Provincial Archery Association and the Edmonton Bowhunters joined to form the Alberta Bowhunters and Archers Association.
The number one goal of this new association was to legalize bowhunting in the Province of Alberta.
This goal was acheived in 1957 and in 1958 a Bowhunter named Ray Anderson harvested the first legal animal in the Province of Alberta with a Bow and Arrow! Armed with his trusty 85 pound Howard Hill Longbow and using 3/8th inch birch dowell tipped with a Howard Hill Broadhead, Ray harvested a cow elk!
The 42 members of the newly formed ABAA then set out on their next quest, to lobby government for changes to the Fish and Wildlife Act that related directly to bowhunters.
Bowhunters had to comply with the same rules governing gun hunters in respect to clothing, season length and even the Bucks and Bulls rule.
The first "Bow and Arrow Only" zone was established and called Zone 8. This zone is still a Bow zone and is known world wide as WMU 410, the Canmore Corridor!
In 1969 the ABAA was able to secure some changes in the F&W Act.
Bowhunters are allowed to wear camoflauge clothing.
Seasons are lengthened for bowhunters.
In 1970, the Government agreed to allow the use of aluminium arrows for the first time.
In 1974, the Government instituted a Bowhunting license (stamp) to better count the number of bowhunters in the province. The cost of this original stamp was $3.00 and the first year there were 34 bowhunters licensed in the province. This number doubled the next year and with the phenomenal growth of the sport has increased to approx. 16,000 bowhunters in the Province of Alberta.
In 1975, the Government set aside two more "Bow and Arrow Only" zones in the province. One surrounds the City of Edmonton in the northern part of the province and one around Calgary in the south. Both of these zones are very productive and with proper management will last for years to come.
In 1976-77, the ABAA successfully won the fight for "archery only" ( pre-season ) seasons. The ABAA was also successful in getting the Archery Antelope draw in place.

20 years to create archer seasons.1956 to 1976. Pre seasons over and above hunting season. Would you expect any less from an organization to protect what they have fought for?

Everyone makes mistakes, was the spear/atlatl proposal a mistake? Maybe. Would I stop supporting a group for one mistake? Not likely. It's odd how so many focus on one issue when there is so much other good going on. Does anyone comment on how the ABA provides funding to HFT, NASP, donates to it's affiliated clubs in merchandise? And all this after they do NOT receive any government funding. And, can NOT fund raise in the form of casinos.

Put down an association because you didn't like the actions or opinions of one or two people. You think you can do a better job? STEP UP.
Archery seasons do not take opportunity away from anyone other than those that chose not to participate.
I don't see this conversation moving forward. Just more bashing and going in circles.

Thanks for all the history as I was not sure of all of it. As for all the people that made the ABA back then till know have done wonders for the sport.

I disagree with a lot of Brent's personal choices being put ahead with out any other members support or consultation. I think it is time for him to pass the reigns to another member. As for Me I am not interested in fixing all of Brents mistakes as I feel the membership renewals are going to be way down after this last stunt. Oh and by the way I am personally againt spears and atlis use in Alberta and Canada but I am not pushing to get anything past as I think it is bad for hunters in a whole to do so. I NEVER PUT DOWN THE ABA JUST BRENT.

Anything else TOX?