Wild sheep

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Here’s some reading that is interesting of the bighorn area.

Bighorn Sheep (Ovis canadensis)
Status Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep –
There is no evidence that predation by cougars, wolves, or bears has caused declines in any of Alberta’s bighorn populations or in the number of mature rams
(AEP 2016)

Right out of the article I posted.Christ don’t you read SLH!

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

and even Cadomin has some syllinium issues as well.

Ok, so I think you’re talking about selenium here? I’m curious about this point as I know of someone working on a Se issue at another mine. I’m not sure if I’ve ever read the negative effects of Se on mountain sheep? Maybe I have and it’s not fresh in my memory... I have read a bit on Se deficient mountain sheep.

Can you explain the issues that you are talking about in the above quote or point me to some reading or research on the subject?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Ok, so I think you’re talking about selenium here? I’m curious about this point as I know of someone working on a Se issue at another mine. I’m not sure if I’ve ever read the negative effects of Se on mountain sheep? Maybe I have and it’s not fresh in my memory... I have read a bit on Se deficient mountain sheep.

Can you explain the issues that you are talking about in the above quote or point me to some reading or research on the subject?

He will be up all night googling “syllinium” and wondering why nothing comes up. Haha. Thanks for the laugh Dave.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by bdub

He will be up all night googling “syllinium” and wondering why nothing comes up. Haha. Thanks for the laugh Dave.

I wasn’t trying to call him out, but truly curious what negative effects Se has on mountain sheep. Just can’t recall reading anything on the subject(negative effects I mean). I have read some interesting articles on the lack of Se in wild sheep...

Have you ever read anything on this bdub?

I found it interesting that ram_crazy had mentioned it is all.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

I wasn’t trying to call him out, but truly curious what negative effects Se has on mountain sheep. Just can’t recall reading anything on the subject(negative effects I mean). I have read some interesting articles on the lack of Se in wild sheep...

Have you ever read anything on this bdub?

I found it interesting that ram_crazy had mentioned it is all.

I don’t really know much about it other than it is an essential element but harmful at higher levels. As for its impact on our wild sheep it seems to be only a concern in places like Cadomin where the ground disturbance effects the levels of selenium in the feed of the sheep. Outside of these areas I really don’t know if it is much of a concern. I would have to dig further to offer an honest opionion. What are the implications that you have read about due to the deficiencies? Any links?

[ram crazy]

From what I've heard about selenium (sorry about the spelling before) in the right levels in the blood system it helps fend off pneumonia, but too much and it effects the keratin in the horn. I think they called it horn rot or something like that. bdub is the know it all, he'll know all about it.

[Bluedog]

Originally Posted by SLH

I hope you're not suggesting that some of these hunting story books are a basis for how we should manage sheep.

The two by Geist have good stuff in them, Great Rams are not game management books, Chris Kinds book is a story book, the closest thing in it about game management would be how they screwed up the mule deer herd in the Empire Valley. Haven't read that one of O Connors, but he was a hunter so I'll speculate about its content. Jim Simpson, hmm? Word is he killed that big ram in the park so I'll ignore his efforts. Now what the hell is that rainbowsend website?

The BC website has a good number of publications on it anything specific you'd like to address? And i have read the Montana Management Plan cover to cover a couple of times. You do know they are about 90% draw tags and the other 10% are on a quota?

The rest I don't understand so I'll not comment.

So what specifically in those books would you like to discuss about how we should manage our sheep herd.

Sorry missed one One Rifle One Man. Wasn't he a dentist?

SLH I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t think we have a management problem with our Bighorn Sheep here in Alberta.
Like most I collect and read as much as the next person on anything Bighorn or North America Sheep for that manner.
I don’t want to see sheep go on draw.
I don’t want to see sheep go to full curl.
I would like to see more habitat opened up with controlled burns.
I have been doing my best for the past 28 years to keep the Cougar population down in the Mountain Zones.
BUT if our Alberta Bighorn are truly in trouble and some hard facts are presented
then yes let’s push for changes.
Oh and please don’t respond
Bluedog

[medicmoose]

If we really want to see any change in our bighorns we really need to stop looking at this from solely a Ram hunting perspective.
If we can make a healthier sheep herd that is what we should be focusing on.
Its a comprehensive outlook on sheep and habitat management.
Habitat work and prescribed burns need to be done. This will increase the amount and quality of grazing available. In many areas this can improve access to water. As well clearing the way to make predators approach more visible.
Focus should be on wintering, nursing grounds and travel corridors.
This will benefit everything in the ecosystem from sheep, moose, deer, and elk to the forest and plants as a whole.
We need to address predator management in SMA's and take a hard look at the Cadomin area and its transition in this regard.

Its herd management not trophy management folks
You CANT stock pile the old rams that is proven. A 4/5 ram is proven to be 99% of the time 6 years or older and his breeding decreases and mortality rate greatly increases from there on out.

Just some facts and food for thought.

[medicmoose]

Dont forget the need to manage the number of ewes. Its a big marker to promote health and diversity of the herd.

[KyleSS]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

From what I've heard about selenium (sorry about the spelling before) in the right levels in the blood system it helps fend off pneumonia, but too much and it effects the keratin in the horn. I think they called it horn rot or something like that. bdub is the know it all, he'll know all about it.

Not sure if it is the same in sheep as it is in cattle, but calves that have a selenium deficiency get something called white muscle disease. The feed in Alberta is typically selenium deficient and as a result we vaccinate our calves with Selenium, Vitamin A, D, E.

Like I said, no idea if sheep suffer from the lack the same way selenium but here is a link on the cattle side of it

https://www.farmhealthonline.com/US/...um-deficiency/

[bdub]

Originally Posted by medicmoose

If we really want to see any change in our bighorns we really need to stop looking at this from solely a Ram hunting perspective.
If we can make a healthier sheep herd that is what we should be focusing on.
Its a comprehensive outlook on sheep and habitat management.
Habitat work and prescribed burns need to be done. This will increase the amount and quality of grazing available. In many areas this can improve access to water. As well clearing the way to make predators approach more visible.
Focus should be on wintering, nursing grounds and travel corridors.
This will benefit everything in the ecosystem from sheep, moose, deer, and elk to the forest and plants as a whole.
We need to address predator management in SMA's and take a hard look at the Cadomin area and its transition in this regard.

Its herd management not trophy management folks
You CANT stock pile the old rams that is proven. A 4/5 ram is proven to be 99% of the time 6 years or older and his breeding decreases and mortality rate greatly increases from there on out.

Just some facts and food for thought.

Are you stating that the management of male portion of the sheep herd is unimportant to herd health. There is research that says that is false and empirical evidence from what has happened in other jurisdictions as well as Albertas experience in 400.

No one disagrees about the habitat and predator issue. That is not the only issues, how we harvest rams is also an issue related to herd health. Not sure why you are implying that we should ignore it. Do some reading.

[medicmoose]

What im saying bdub is don’t be so superficial. You will never fix a dang thing by restricting hunting opertunities. Like I said you can’t stock pile old rams.
But if you want to improve the herd (including rams ) here is how you do it.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by medicmoose

What im saying bdub is don’t be so superficial. You will never fix a dang thing by restricting hunting opertunities. Like I said you can’t stock pile old rams.
But if you want to improve the herd (including rams ) here is how you do it.

Superficial? What exactly does that mean?

Last time I checked management of wildlife included managing harvest levels so that we are not causing undesirable consequences to the population. We had a management goal of a certain level of 4/5 curl rams left in the population post season and we are consistently below that level in many WMU's. Some evidence points out that that is harmful. We are already restricting hunting opportunity and future opportunity by the way we are managing the harvest in my opinion. Look at the decline in harvest levels, definitely trending down over many years and not all explained by loss of area. We will probably continue to muddle through with declining herd health, declining harvest numbers and poor quality rams until something gives. Truly restricted hunting opportunity, draw is going to happen if we don't do something different eventually. It is amazing that we haven't reached that point already I think. I would rather hunt on a system that allows higher survival of younger rams like a full curl regulation, or a 4/5 broomed type of thing than have a draw system. Even if it take a few years to phase something in. I think the days of unlimited bighorn sheep hunting in Alberta are numbered if we don't do something.

[RZR]

Originally Posted by bdub

Superficial? What exactly does that mean?

Last time I checked management of wildlife included managing harvest levels so that we are not causing undesirable consequences to the population. We had a management goal of a certain level of 4/5 curl rams left in the population post season and we are consistently below that level in many WMU's. Some evidence points out that that is harmful. We are already restricting hunting opportunity and future opportunity by the way we are managing the harvest in my opinion. Look at the decline in harvest levels, definitely trending down over many years and not all explained by loss of area. We will probably continue to muddle through with declining herd health, declining harvest numbers and poor quality rams until something gives. Truly restricted hunting opportunity, draw is going to happen if we don't do something different eventually. It is amazing that we haven't reached that point already I think. I would rather hunt on a system that allows higher survival of younger rams like a full curl regulation, or a 4/5 broomed type of thing than have a draw system. Even if it take a few years to phase something in. I think the days of unlimited bighorn sheep hunting in Alberta are numbered if we don't do something.

Start by getting rid of sheep outfitting for non-residents. You can’t compare WMU 400 to other zones as there are so many different variables throughout the province. Everything from genetics to habitat, there are some zones that may never hold full curl sheep as well. In WMU 400 there are also a lot of park rams that come out of the park to the winter range that in the spring when they do there counts these park rams are being counted before they get back to the park. So the numbers are skewed, because these park rams will get back to the park before hunting season and won’t come out of the park until after the season closes.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by RZR

Start by getting rid of sheep outfitting for non-residents. You can’t compare WMU 400 to other zones as there are so many different variables throughout the province. Everything from genetics to habitat, there are some zones that may never hold full curl sheep as well. In WMU 400 there are also a lot of park rams that come out of the park to the winter range that in the spring when they do there counts these park rams are being counted before they get back to the park. So the numbers are skewed, because these park rams will get back to the park before hunting season and won’t come out of the park until after the season closes.

What is the problem with outfitting non residents? Their season starts after our and ends before ours. It is a non issue in my mind.

[RZR]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

What is the problem with outfitting non residents? Their season starts after our and ends before ours. It is a non issue in my mind.

There are a couple of individuals that are crying about mature ram numbers low after the season is done, so if you cut this out it may help with the numbers. This would be a better solution then putting the province on draw or full curl like the few individuals would like, but I guess it’s all about taking resident opportunity away before non-resident opportunity. Hell we even have a guy comparing WMU 400 where there isn’t a non-resident season to other zones where there is non-resident seasons.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Pretty sure outfitting isn’t the issue here. If there even is an issue?

[medicmoose]

Bdub I think you are deffinelty miss informed. What I ment by superficial is you arnt digging deep enough. Harvest numbers are on an average the same as they have always been. Even with the closures of areas. Our current areal surveys don’t include sheep wintering with in parks. And truly are an inefficient way to count sheep. Leaving a 4/5 ram on the mountain as if he’s going to suddenly become of better trophy quality will not happen.
We have been very selective in the way we harvest these rams and in return see stable harvest numbers.
You fix what I mentioned above and I garuntee you will see an increase in hunting opertunitee and trophy quality.

Originally Posted by bdub

Superficial? What exactly does that mean?

Last time I checked management of wildlife included managing harvest levels so that we are not causing undesirable consequences to the population. We had a management goal of a certain level of 4/5 curl rams left in the population post season and we are consistently below that level in many WMU's. Some evidence points out that that is harmful. We are already restricting hunting opportunity and future opportunity by the way we are managing the harvest in my opinion. Look at the decline in harvest levels, definitely trending down over many years and not all explained by loss of area. We will probably continue to muddle through with declining herd health, declining harvest numbers and poor quality rams until something gives. Truly restricted hunting opportunity, draw is going to happen if we don't do something different eventually. It is amazing that we haven't reached that point already I think. I would rather hunt on a system that allows higher survival of younger rams like a full curl regulation, or a 4/5 broomed type of thing than have a draw system. Even if it take a few years to phase something in. I think the days of unlimited bighorn sheep hunting in Alberta are numbered if we don't do something.

[Bluedog]

Originally Posted by medicmoose

Bdub I think you are deffinelty miss informed. What I ment by superficial is you arnt digging deep enough. Harvest numbers are on an average the same as they have always been. Even with the closures of areas. Our current areal surveys don’t include sheep wintering with in parks. And truly are an inefficient way to count sheep. Leaving a 4/5 ram on the mountain as if he’s going to suddenly become of better trophy quality will not happen.
We have been very selective in the way we harvest these rams and in return see stable harvest numbers.
You fix what I mentioned above and I garuntee you will see an increase in hunting opertunitee and trophy quality.

Agree with medicmoose 100%
Bluedog

[bdub]

Does this lie? Medic, Bluedog?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[medicmoose]

Look at the province as a whole. Not just a few zones.what else took place in these zones in that time frame......

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Bdub, from what you provided your saying licensed harvest is as good or better then it was in the 70s. I will take that as a good thing.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by medicmoose

Look at the province as a whole. Not just a few zones.what else took place in these zones in that time frame......

This does encompass the whole province Medic. You said harvest numbers have remained the same? Do these charts not indicate they have decreased?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Bdub, from what you provided your saying licensed harvest is as good or better then it was in the 70s. I will take that as a good thing.

You have to remember that they just changed the regulations from 3/4 curl to 4/5 curl in 1968.

Glad you brought that up. Harvest levels then improved after the increase.

[Bluedog]

No it doesn’t lie at all.
It Merely indicates that Ram harvest numbers have fluctuated since the 70’s
Habitat, predation, loss of hunting areas, not taking enough ewes, or something as simple as a it could have been a very cold wet spring 6-8 years prior which resulted in high lamb mortality.
Bluedog

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

No it doesn’t lie at all.
It Merely indicates that Ram harvest numbers have fluctuated since the 70’s
Habitat, predation, loss of hunting areas, not taking enough ewes, or something as simple as a it could have been a very cold wet spring 6-8 years prior which resulted in high lamb mortality.
Bluedog

Ya X2. Plus strychnine and burns back then helped.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by RZR

Start by getting rid of sheep outfitting for non-residents.

Why would we want to do away with sheep outfitting in the birthplace of the industry. Give your head a shake. I don't see why we can't have both resident and non resident sheep hunting under full curl or some other system. Help the industry transition to the changes if needed.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

No it doesn’t lie at all.
It Merely indicates that Ram harvest numbers have fluctuated since the 70’s
Habitat, predation, loss of hunting areas, not taking enough ewes, or something as simple as a it could have been a very cold wet spring 6-8 years prior which resulted in high lamb mortality.
Bluedog

Maybe I have a problem with my vision or I learned a different type of math than you guys?

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by bdub

Maybe I have a problem with my vision or I learned a different type of math than you guys?

Thinking your having vision problems. Can’t yourself killing another ram and trying to lay blame.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Thinking your having vision problems. Can’t yourself killing another ram and trying to lay blame.

Wow. Perhaps I learned to write at a different school too. What are you trying to say moose.