Wild sheep

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

I got some great Sheep books for you boys to read.
Bluedog

And still waiting...

[ram crazy]

Here’s some reading that is interesting of the bighorn area.

Bighorn Sheep (Ovis canadensis)
Status Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep – the Provincial Mammal – are man- aged as trophy big game species in Alberta. Historically, bighorn sheep may have numbered up to 10,000 in Alberta (Stelfox 1971). By 1915, sheep numbers had dropped to ~2000-3000 animals due to excessive and non-selective hunting. On Provincial lands, population numbers have increased to a minimum of ~7,000 animals. Alberta has the largest population of bighorn sheep in North America, which – combined with those sheep in National Parks – accounted for >15% of all sheep in North America. In 2016, Alberta Environment and Parks released a draft Bighorn Sheep Management Plan (In Review).
Vulnerability Profile
Synopsis: Bighorn sheep exhibit moderate vulnerability. They have a narrow feeding niche on grasses and are constrained to live on or near cliffs for escape terrain. Female sheep have moderate reproduction, but wild sheep are highly susceptible to outbreaks of disease (some carried by domestic sheep) that can decimate a herd quickly. Bighorn sheep have low capacity to rebound rapidly from these disease events; hence, prevention of transmission is crucial. Because Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep have strong fidelity to chosen sites, they do not disperse very readily and have a low capacity for re-colonizing vacant habitats. But this behavior may serve to compartmentalize herds and retard transmission of disease. Although sheep appear to habituate to predictable motorized distur- bance along highways, helicopter overflights can be quite stressful. In terms of climate-change conservation strategies, maintaining secure access to cliffs and rocky terrain along an elevation gradient could provide options for bighorn sheep to move up or down as needed in response to changing conditions. Niche Flexibility: Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep have relatively low flexibility in their foraging and habitat niche (Geist 1971). They feed primarily on grasses (especially bunchgrasses and fescues), though they occasionally consume palat- able forbs and shrubs (Shackleton et al. 1999, Demarchi et al. 2000, Montana DFWP 2009). Fire suppression can result in encroachment of open slopes by dense stands of conifers, which compromises the size and quality of these habi- tat patches (Schirokauer 1996). Prescribed fire may increase the diversity, abun- dance and distribution of forage plants, enhance accessibility and connectivity of grasslands, and change the occurrence of other ungulates using some of the same resources (Rucksthul et al. 2000, Michalsky and Woodard n.d., cited in AEP 2016). Due to their strong affinity and perhaps physiological dependence on mineral licks during late spring-summer, sheep may travel several miles (even through forests) to visit such sites (Ayotte et al. 2008, Jokinen et al. 2013).
In winter, deep snow can hinder movements of bighorn sheep (especially ewes and lambs) and their access to grass forage, particularly if snowfall lasts for several days and/or becomes hard crusted. Thus, sheep usually select sites where deep snow does not accumulate due to low elevation, south exposure, and/or wind. Bighorn sheep (particularly ewes with lambs) usually stay within 400-500 feet of rocky terrain and cliffs with slopes > 27° that provide escape habitat from terrestrial predators (Sweanor et al. 1996). Cliffs also provide available forage when snow events preclude use of other sites. This close inter- spersion of rocky terrain/cliffs with south-facing or wind-swept grassy slopes delimits critical habitat during winter for Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep (Demarchi et al. 2000, Dicus 2002, AEP 2016).
Reproductive Capacity and Mortality Risk: Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep have moderate reproductive potential (Demarchi et al. 2000). Usually, a ewe does not breed until ≥2 years of age but even yearlings – under favorable condi- tions of good habitat and low density – can breed. Typically, a ewe carries only a single lamb each year but pregnancy rates can exceed 90 % (Jorgensen et al. 1993). Under high population density, though, age of first reproduction may be postponed and mature ewes may forego lamb production (Festa-Bianchet and Jorgensen 1998, Martin and Festa-Bianchet 2011). The timing and duration of high-quality forage can affect breeding success, lamb growth and survival, and distribution of bighorn sheep (AEP 2016).
Survivorship of adult ewes typically is high in Alberta (0.89-0.92) (Jorgensen et al. 1997, Loisan et al. 1999). Survival of lambs to 1 year in Alberta can be low (0.41) and varies substantially – better maternal nutrition, warm and wet spring weather, and lower population density can result in higher survival (Festa-Bianchet 1988a, Jorgensen et al. 1997, Portier et al. 1998, Jokinen et al. 2008). Ram survival at Sheep River, Alberta was low (0.68) for yearlings but improved (0.82-0.94) for ages 2-9; hunting resulted in ram mortality increasing by 6-38% beginning in the fourth year (Festa-Bianchet 1989).
Bighorn sheep are notoriously susceptible to virulent outbreaks of pneumo- nia usually caused by Pasturella spp. bacteria transmitted by domestic sheep, which can decimate up to 95% of a herd rather quickly (Onderka et al. 1988, Bunch et al. 1999, Demarchi et al. 2000, Monello et al. 2001, see Miller et al. 2012 for recent review). Bighorn sheep populations recover slowly from such reductions, depending upon the quality of the range. Hence, bighorn sheep exhibit low resistance to disease and possess low capacity to compensate rap- idly for excessive mortality. Most contemporary management plans for bighorn sheep have endorsed the conclusion that domestic sheep should be kept away from bighorn sheep range (e.g. MDFWP 2009, WAFWA 2012).
There is no evidence that predation by cougars, wolves, or bears has caused declines in any of Alberta’s bighorn populations or in the number of mature rams (AEP 2016). Cougar predation accounted for 9% of 320 kills by cougars in southwestern Alberta during 9 winters (Ross et al. 1997), and 3.4% of 1428 kills in west-central Alberta (Knopff et al. 2010). These researchers concluded that cougar predation was a learned behavior exhibited by one or a few skilled individuals. Conceivably, such predation could become a concern for small, isolated herds of bighorn sheep (Bourbeau-Lemieux et al. 2011). Wolf preda- tion on bighorn sheep has ranged from zero during extensive studies in west- central Alberta (Webb 2009, Knamiller 2011) to 9% in another study in that area (DeCesare 2012). Bears have not been reported as significant predators of bighorns in Alberta, either.
Hunting of rams may be additive to ‘natural’ levels of mortality (rather than compensatory) for prime age classes. At Sheep River, Alberta, hunting resulted in ram mortality increasing by 6-38% beginning in the fourth year (Festa- Bianchet 1989). In contrast, adult ram survival averaged 0.92 in a protected population in Colorado that was increasing (Singer et al. 2000).
Dispersal and Connectivity: Bighorn sheep find their niche in patches of mon- tane and alpine grassland that remain stable through time, and they exhibit high fidelity to these ranges (Geist 1971, Festa-Bianchet 1986). In undisturbed situations, most suitable patches are already occupied by sheep. Although sheep migrate between traditional seasonal ranges, dispersing into unknown areas where there is a low likelihood of finding suitable habitat would not be a good strategy. Instead, juveniles inherit home ranges from adults and pass them on as a living tradition to their offspring (Geist 1971). Male bighorns occasionally move upwards of 30-50 km between herds, which could maintain some genetic connectivity (DeCesare and Pletscher 2006). Nonetheless, bighorn sheep have been perceived as poor dispersers with low potential for natural re-colonization of distant, vacant habitat (Shackleton et al. 1999). Actually, this behavior could serve to compartmentalize herds and retard transmission of disease.
Sensitivity to Human Disturbance: Bighorn sheep exhibit a variety of behav- ioral responses to human activities ranging from habituation to cardiac alarm and displacement (Geist 1971, Andryk 1983, Shackleton et al. 1999). The most-disturbing activity is helicopter overflights within 400 m (MacArthur et al. 1982, Stockwell et al. 1991), especially repeated overpasses (Stemp 1983). Vehicle traffic and human activity impacted use of a nearby mineral lick by sheep in Rocky Mountain National Park in Colorado (Keller and Bender 2007). Bighorn sheep may react negatively to approaching humans on foot, especially when people are accompanied by a dog (MacArthur et al. 1982). In other circumstances, sheep seem to habituate to predictable, repeated activities such as highway traffic (MacArthur et al. 1982). Sheep may tolerate some indus- trial activities and readily use open-pit coal mines that have been reclaimed (MacCallum 1991); but high levels of selenium in blood samples of sheep at such sites is of concern to managers (MacCallum 2006). Severe and/or chronic disturbance and subsequent abandonment of critical ranges (lambing and wintering areas, mineral licks) can compromise the health and productivity of bighorn sheep populations (AEP 2016).
Response to Climate Change: Potential effects of climate change on Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep appear variable with contrasting implications. The winter season is widely considered to be the most challenging for bighorn sheep survival (Shackleton et al. 1999). Warmer winters with less snow could result in milder conditions and more expansive range for sheep, particularly if frequency of fires increases and removes encroaching conifers from potential winter ranges. This scenario, however, could also enable elk populations to increase and range more widely during winter (Wang et al. 2002), which could result in direct competition with bighorn sheep for forage. Rain-on-snow events follow- ing periods of deep snowfall can create a hard-crusted snow that would reduce sheep access to ground forage. More rapid snowmelt in spring could shorten the duration of high-quality forage in spring-summer (Pettorelli et al. 2007). Perhaps the best conservation strategy for now is to provide stress-free security along an elevation gradient of south-facing or wind-swept slopes interspersed with cliffs. This would allow bighorn sheep options for moving up or down in response to changing conditions.
Methods for Scoring Conservation Importance
Seasonal Ranges: Bighorn sheep typically spend 8-9 months on winter ranges (Geist 1971, Alberta 2016). For location of winter ranges, I used the most recent map of winter ranges (2016) delineated by local bighorn sheep biologists (kindly provided by Anne Hubbs, Alberta Environment and Parks). We edited the map slightly to include the latest survey locations and to connect a few win- ter ranges separated by < 5 km of suitable habitat. Insufficient data was avail- able to map sheep occurrence on summer range, or to model habitat suitability for the summer season. Many sheep continue to occur on or very near winter range during summer, while some (particularly rams) may move into different areas for the summer. Accordingly, I assigned an importance scores for bighorn sheep: Very High (3) = known winter ranges.
Key Conservation Areas
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Division has delineated Sheep Management Areas (SMAs), which may represent genetically distinguishable sub-populations based upon preliminary DNA analysis (AEP 2016). There are 3 Sheep Management Areas that occur in the Bighorn Backcountry area: (1) Ram-Shunda, (2) Nordegg-Chungo, and (3) Clearwater-Ram (Figure 19). Some 16 major herds totaling ~2,000 bighorn sheep spend the winter on 21 winter ranges across the Bighorn Backcountry of Alberta (Table 9: AEP 2016). The Ram-Shunda SMA near the town of Nordegg currently includes about 80 sheep in the vicinity of Ram Mountain. It is the only winter range east of the Forestry Trunk Road #734. The Nordegg-Chungo SMA currently has about 580 sheep in the moun- tains north of Highway 11. The Clearwater-Ram SMA currently has about 1300 sheep in the mountains south of Highway 11.
Approximately 75% of the winter range (total = 272,986 ha) for bighorn sheep in the Bighorn Backcountry area occurs on Provincial lands east of Banff National Park (Table 8).
Table 8. Area (ha) and percent of lands with bighorn sheep winter range in the Bighorn Backcountry Assessment Area, Alberta.
Very High (WR) = 3
Land Status
Area
Percent
Banff NP
67,276
24.6
Provincial WAs
1,351
0.5
Provincial Lands
204,359
74.9
TOTAL
272,986
100.0
%Total Land Base
19.0

Conservation Issues
According to Alberta’s draft Management Plan for Bighorn Sheep (2016:88): “Current hunting demand exceeds the supply and cannot be maintained at present levels without further compromising the quality of bighorn sheep in Alberta.” In the North Saskatchewan region, harvest of trophy rams has declined considerably over the past 40 years. Excessive harvest occurred in the 1980’s in both SMAs 4B and 4C (e.g., from 70 rams per year down to 35 per year in 4B) – essentially the Bighorn Backcountry area (Festa-Bianchet et al. 2014).
Roads, ATV use, and helicopter-based activities have proliferated through- out the Eastern Slopes in Alberta since the 1950s, impinging upon key winter ranges and altering hunting experiences. Motorized access by OHVs, snowmo- biles, and helicopters can be an issue in some circumstances.
The draft Management Plan for Bighorn Sheep (AEP 2016:88-90) discusses several conservation strategies, including (1) legislation/policy to maintain effective separation between wild bighorn sheep and domestic sheep to prevent disease transmission, (2) more conservative hunting regulations, (3) improved policies and standards for protecting sheep on wintering and lambing ranges from disturbance by industrial and recreational activities – especially helicopter activities, and (4) well-planned habitat enhancement using prescribed fire in key sites.

Table 9. Number of winter ranges and estimated pre-season population size of bighorn sheep in the Bighorn Backcountry area of Alberta, 2013. Source: Alberta Environment and Parks (2016).
SMA
WMU
Major Winter Ranges
Total No. Winter Ranges
Pre-season Population
4B
416
Sheep Creek
1
Clearwater-Ram
418
Ya Ha Tinda
4
420
Clearwater
3
422
Hummingbird
1
426A
Whiterabbit
1
428
North Ram
1
430A
Bighorn (south)
1
1300
4C
426B
Windy/Whirlpool Point
1
Nordegg-Chungo
430B
Bighorn (north)
1
432
Job-Coral
1
434
George Creek
1
434
Chungo-Blackstone
1
580
5
328
Shunda
1
Ram-Shunda
429
Ram Mountain
1
80
Siffleur Wilderness Area
1
20
White Goat Wilderness Area
1
20
TOTAL
16
21
2000

[ram crazy]

I find it interesting that there is no evidence of predators causing any decline in the population, and that helicopters cause major stress on them. Do they not use helicopters to do counts. Seems kinda hypocritical doesn’t it.

[ram crazy]

now In this article he mentions how the males separate from the females to lesson the chance of culling from predators. That kinda contradicts his other article of no evidence of predation.

Bighorn sheep in winter: do rams maximize reproductive fitness by spatial and habitat segregation from ewes?

Valerius Geist and R. G. Petocz
Canadian Journal of Zoology

Vol. 55: , Issue. 11, : Pages. 1802-1810

https://doi.org/10.1139/z77-234

In bighorn sheep (Ovis canadensis canadensis) the segregation of adult males from females is explained by two hypotheses: first, males exhausted by the rut must avoid females to escape culling predators; second, males ought to segregate from females in such a fashion as to minimize competition and disturbance for the mothers of their prospective offspring. Only the second hypothesis coincides closely with previously known facts about sheep. It predicts that on common winter ranges adult males ought to minimize competition for females by segregating spatially and by habitat selection. This was verified. Although both sexes may occupy a continuous range, they concentrate in different areas; rams have a greater preference for open slopes and ewes for cliffs. This segregation held true even in a winter with exceptional snow depths. Sheep occupied the wintering area in a similar manner in successive years; females were found to be more affected by snow than males. In their habitat preference, rams and ewes acted in accordance with their behavioural types, much as was found to be true for their social behaviour.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

I find it interesting that there is no evidence of predators causing any decline in the population, and that helicopters cause major stress on them. Do they not use helicopters to do counts. Seems kinda hypocritical doesn’t it.

Seems like honest straight foward science (with references). Both are true and both are management concerns. One of the biggest concerns with over flights for surveys is always to minimize the stress levels and time any animals are exposed to such stress. The statement also says stress increases inside 400m, so that can be managed and repeated exposure is worse, like the kind of exposure that could be created by heli ski operations.

Yes helicopters are best for surveys because you can linger, but they are more expensive as well. I thinkthey use fixed wing to ddo the surveys but I could be wrong. I cant see the hypocricy if you recognize the issue and manage to minimize its effects.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

I find it interesting that there is no evidence of predators causing any decline in the population, and that helicopters cause major stress on them. Do they not use helicopters to do counts. Seems kinda hypocritical doesn’t it.

One of the points that I think is very interesting from the document is...

Insufficient data was avail- able to map sheep occurrence on summer range, or to model habitat suitability for the summer season.

I am very skeptical that we have any good information on carrying capacity any where in the province short of Ram Mt.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

now In this article he mentions how the males separate from the females to lesson the chance of culling from predators. That kinda contradicts his other article of no evidence of predation.

Why can't both be true?

Secondly no where does anyone say that there is "no evidence of predation". This is the kind of stuff that drives people crazy. Of course sheep are preyed on. The biggest concern is when, like what happened at Ram Mountain, a predator keys into a small isolated herd.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by SLH

Seems like honest straight foward science (with references). Both are true and both are management concerns. One of the biggest concerns with over flights for surveys is always to minimize the stress levels and time any animals are exposed to such stress. The statement also says stress increases inside 400m, so that can be managed and repeated exposure is worse, like the kind of exposure that could be created by heli ski operations.

Yes helicopters are best for surveys because you can linger, but they are more expensive as well. I thinkthey use fixed wing to ddo the surveys but I could be wrong. I cant see the hypocricy if you recognize the issue and manage to minimize its effects.

I’m pretty sure sheep aren’t anywhere near where heli skiing is going on, usually the snow would be deep and I don’t think you’d find too many sheep in these places. I remember one time a friend and I were going up on a group of rams and a helicopter flew over us and went up to the rams and hovered above them at about 100’ and spooked them out of area. I know it was a forestry chopper and nothing ever came of it when reported.

[SLH]

I would disagree with you that the 2 aren't close to each other. Near Fernie there are areas that are restricted for heli ski over flights to minimize the effects on goats and sheep. This might not be legislation but just public engagement policy.

Further to your story you can then appreciate the concerns of helicopters, even if you didn't get the response you wanted hopefully word got back to the department responsible and it won't happen again.

[bdub]

Thanks for posting something up to discuss RC. We appear to still be waiting for bluedog, brother of bonedog to supply anything worth reading.

Just a couple points from the material that disagrees with 209 and acen8 that harvest levels have remained the same, unchanged over time. Total baloney not only from the researchers point of view but quite obvious just looking back at the harvest stats. Loss of area from parks doesn’t account for the degree of the decrease in harvest levels. Something else is going on.

“Current hunting demand exceeds the supply and cannot be maintained at present levels without further compromising the quality of bighorn sheep in Alberta.” In the North Saskatchewan region, harvest of trophy rams has declined considerably over the past 40 years. Excessive harvest occurred in the 1980’s in both SMAs 4B and 4C (e.g., from 70 rams per year down to 35 per year in 4B) – essentially the Bighorn Backcountry area.

Another claim by that rams over 6 yrs old are a drain on habitat, harming the population. 209 etc claims that we shouldn’t be worried about the overharvest of that age class doesn’t hold water. The segregation of rams and ewes in the use of winter range disputes this idea. The second hypothesis below makes more evolutionary sense IMO. But whatever the case, the so called drain on habitat claim doesn’t really stand up in regards to harming lamb/ewe wintering survival if rams segregate. I would argue that a lack of older rams in the herd increases the chance that younger rams will stick closer and compete with ewes on critical winter range rather than segregating as they should when in the presense of older rams.

the segregation of adult males from females is explained by two hypotheses: first, males exhausted by the rut must avoid females to escape culling predators; second, males ought to segregate from females in such a fashion as to minimize competition and disturbance for the mothers of their prospective offspring. Only the second hypothesis coincides closely with previously known facts about sheep. It predicts that on common winter ranges adult males ought to minimize competition for females by segregating spatially and by habitat selection. This was verified. Although both sexes may occupy a continuous range, they concentrate in different areas;

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by bdub

Thanks for posting something up to discuss RC. We appear to still be waiting for bluedog, brother of bonedog to supply anything worth reading.

Just a couple points from the material that disagrees with 209 and acen8 that harvest levels have remained the same, unchanged over time. Total baloney not only from the researchers point of view but quite obvious just looking back at the harvest stats. Loss of area from parks doesn’t account for the degree of the decrease in harvest levels. Something else is going on.

“Current hunting demand exceeds the supply and cannot be maintained at present levels without further compromising the quality of bighorn sheep in Alberta.” In the North Saskatchewan region, harvest of trophy rams has declined considerably over the past 40 years. Excessive harvest occurred in the 1980’s in both SMAs 4B and 4C (e.g., from 70 rams per year down to 35 per year in 4B) – essentially the Bighorn Backcountry area.

Another claim by that rams over 6 yrs old are a drain on habitat, harming the population. 209 etc claims that we shouldn’t be worried about the overharvest of that age class doesn’t hold water. The segregation of rams and ewes in the use of winter range disputes this idea. The second hypothesis below makes more evolutionary sense IMO. But whatever the case, the so called drain on habitat claim doesn’t really stand up in regards to harming lamb/ewe wintering survival if rams segregate. I would argue that a lack of older rams in the herd increases the chance that younger rams will stick closer and compete with ewes on critical winter range rather than segregating as they should when in the presense of older rams.

the segregation of adult males from females is explained by two hypotheses: first, males exhausted by the rut must avoid females to escape culling predators; second, males ought to segregate from females in such a fashion as to minimize competition and disturbance for the mothers of their prospective offspring. Only the second hypothesis coincides closely with previously known facts about sheep. It predicts that on common winter ranges adult males ought to minimize competition for females by segregating spatially and by habitat selection. This was verified. Although both sexes may occupy a continuous range, they concentrate in different areas;

Of course the harvest leaves have changed due to changes. One example is harvest went down drastically in WMU 400 because of a major die off in the mid 80’s and then the full curl being implemented in the late 90’s and now Harvest levels will drop even further with the lose of some access (trails closed, and camping restrictions in the back country). I believe there were problems in sheep river area as well (a sanctuary was introduced in the early 90’s, and there was some die off as well), and even Cadomin has some syllinium issues as well. My point is these haven’t been from over harvest of hunting, so changing to a full curl or a draw isn’t going to make the herds healthier and I don’t think you will see a drastic change in the age of the herds like you seem to think, simply because of the health of the herds. And as has been stated the sheep population has been holding at about 10,000 which I believe is a pretty healthy caring capacity of the province of Alberta, so I don’t see a real big issue with the hunting regs as they are presently.

[ram crazy]

And as for the second part of your highlighted part sheep simply aren’t smart enough to move around for a better food source in the winter. They have it programmed in their brain to stay put in a certain area. This may also be apart of the health issue of a herd.

[Bluedog]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

And still waiting...

Wild Sheep Country
Great Rams 1/2
People and peaks Willmore Wilderness
People and peaks Panther River
Http://albertawilderness.ca Dedicated to Norman A. Willmore.
Bighorn Sheep www.env.gov.bc.ca
Home of the Bighorn twp.mt.gov bighorn sheep
Big Horns and Stone Sheep
Horns in the High Country
The Quest for Dale Sheep
Jack O,Conner
Jimmy Simpson
One Rifle one man
Hunting Big game Alberta
www.rainbowsendbb.com/bogey.html
Bighorn Sheep World Record Holder 1924
Mark Sheep shrink 4” when they get old 😂
Crazy Dave I’m will to exchange any of my books if you would like.
Bdub, SLH another great read for you two is
Who Moved My Cheese?
Bluedog will apologize for rattling some feathers.

[ram crazy]

Definitely some great reading material there bluedog, it’s pretty obvious that some of these guys that were asking haven’t done a whole lot of read of sheep books. Thanks for sharing

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

Wild Sheep Country
Great Rams 1/2
People and peaks Willmore Wilderness
People and peaks Panther River
Http://albertawilderness.ca Dedicated to Norman A. Willmore.
Bighorn Sheep www.env.gov.bc.ca
Home of the Bighorn twp.mt.gov bighorn sheep
Big Horns and Stone Sheep
Horns in the High Country
The Quest for Dale Sheep
Jack O,Conner
Jimmy Simpson
One Rifle one man
Hunting Big game Alberta
www.rainbowsendbb.com/bogey.html
Bighorn Sheep World Record Holder 1924
Mark Sheep shrink 4” when they get old 😂
Crazy Dave I’m will to exchange any of my books if you would like.
Bdub, SLH another great read for you two is
Who Moved My Cheese?
Bluedog will apologize for rattling some feathers.

Oh, I thought you might have something new to add.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Thread has turned into a few guys trying to discredit each other.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

And as for the second part of your highlighted part sheep simply aren’t smart enough to move around for a better food source in the winter. They have it programmed in their brain to stay put in a certain area. This may also be apart of the health issue of a herd.

Have also thought in the back of my mind that mature rams avoid ewes and lambs outside of breeding season because females and young attract more predators. Don't think this is a conscious act but more instinctual and is common among most ungulates.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Have also thought in the back of my mind that mature rams avoid ewes and lambs outside of breeding season because females and young attract more predators. Don't think this is a conscious act but more instinctual and is common among most ungulates.

Its an interesting question why species evolved like this. It wouldn't surprise if your conclusion has merit.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

Wild Sheep Country
Great Rams 1/2
People and peaks Willmore Wilderness
People and peaks Panther River
Http://albertawilderness.ca Dedicated to Norman A. Willmore.
Bighorn Sheep www.env.gov.bc.ca
Home of the Bighorn twp.mt.gov bighorn sheep
Big Horns and Stone Sheep
Horns in the High Country
The Quest for Dale Sheep
Jack O,Conner
Jimmy Simpson
One Rifle one man
Hunting Big game Alberta
www.rainbowsendbb.com/bogey.html
Bighorn Sheep World Record Holder 1924
Mark Sheep shrink 4” when they get old 😂
Crazy Dave I’m will to exchange any of my books if you would like.
Bdub, SLH another great read for you two is
Who Moved My Cheese?
Bluedog will apologize for rattling some feathers.

I hope you're not suggesting that some of these hunting story books are a basis for how we should manage sheep.

The two by Geist have good stuff in them, Great Rams are not game management books, Chris Kinds book is a story book, the closest thing in it about game management would be how they screwed up the mule deer herd in the Empire Valley. Haven't read that one of O Connors, but he was a hunter so I'll speculate about its content. Jim Simpson, hmm? Word is he killed that big ram in the park so I'll ignore his efforts. Now what the hell is that rainbowsend website?

The BC website has a good number of publications on it anything specific you'd like to address? And i have read the Montana Management Plan cover to cover a couple of times. You do know they are about 90% draw tags and the other 10% are on a quota?

The rest I don't understand so I'll not comment.

So what specifically in those books would you like to discuss about how we should manage our sheep herd.

Sorry missed one One Rifle One Man. Wasn't he a dentist?

[SLH]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Definitely some great reading material there bluedog, it’s pretty obvious that some of these guys that were asking haven’t done a whole lot of read of sheep books. Thanks for sharing

Hmmm?!?

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by SLH

Why can't both be true?

Secondly no where does anyone say that there is "no evidence of predation". This is the kind of stuff that drives people crazy. Of course sheep are preyed on. The biggest concern is when, like what happened at Ram Mountain, a predator keys into a small isolated herd.

Halfway through the article it states that there is no evidence of predation being the cause of a decline in the sheep population.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Predators killing sheep won’t cause the population to decline?

[SLH]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Halfway through the article it states that there is no evidence of predation being the cause of a decline in the sheep population.

Yes! But that is not the same as "no evidence of predation".

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by SLH

Yes! But that is not the same as "no evidence of predation".

Who said that there was no evidence of predation. I know I never said that and if you think I did you better go back and reread my posts

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Predators killing sheep won’t cause the population to decline?

Are you sure of this? Look at ram mountain. I have witnessed cougars preying on rams 3 different occasions and I have also seen wolves do this as well. What the article says is there is no evidence of a decline in sheep population because of predation. If they never studied this maybe they should.

[sage 13]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Are you sure of this? Look at ram mountain. I have witnessed cougars preying on rams 3 different occasions and I have also seen wolves do this as well. What the article says is there is no evidence of a decline in sheep population because of predation. If they never studied this maybe they should.

I have witnessed many humans killing sheep as well. Does that have a effect on the decline of the population?

[SLH]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

now In this article he mentions how the males separate from the females to lesson the chance of culling from predators. That kinda contradicts his other article of no evidence of predation.

Bighorn sheep in winter: do rams maximize reproductive fitness by spatial and habitat segregation from ewes?

Valerius Geist and R. G. Petocz
Canadian Journal of Zoology

Vol. 55: , Issue. 11, : Pages. 1802-1810

https://doi.org/10.1139/z77-234

In bighorn sheep (Ovis canadensis canadensis) the segregation of adult males from females is explained by two hypotheses: first, males exhausted by the rut must avoid females to escape culling predators; second, males ought to segregate from females in such a fashion as to minimize competition and disturbance for the mothers of their prospective offspring. Only the second hypothesis coincides closely with previously known facts about sheep. It predicts that on common winter ranges adult males ought to minimize competition for females by segregating spatially and by habitat selection. This was verified. Although both sexes may occupy a continuous range, they concentrate in different areas; rams have a greater preference for open slopes and ewes for cliffs. This segregation held true even in a winter with exceptional snow depths. Sheep occupied the wintering area in a similar manner in successive years; females were found to be more affected by snow than males. In their habitat preference, rams and ewes acted in accordance with their behavioural types, much as was found to be true for their social behaviour.

Are you sure that's not what you said?

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Are you sure of this? Look at ram mountain. I have witnessed cougars preying on rams 3 different occasions and I have also seen wolves do this as well. What the article says is there is no evidence of a decline in sheep population because of predation. If they never studied this maybe they should.

It was a question not a statement.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Are you sure of this? Look at ram mountain. I have witnessed cougars preying on rams 3 different occasions and I have also seen wolves do this as well. What the article says is there is no evidence of a decline in sheep population because of predation. If they never studied this maybe they should.

Ross et al! Knopff et al!

Christ don't you read your own posts!

[bdub]

Originally Posted by SLH

Ross et al! Knopff et al!

Christ don't you read your own posts!

I don’t think so SLH. It is laughable, and if it was any other subject it really wouldn’t be worth the interaction. The only reason I can find to not ignore the input of the guys who haven’t bothered to educate themselves on the subject (which is clear by their posts) is that there are other intelligent sheep hunters on here that hopefully can see through all the nonsense. Hopefully they can make an educated opinion based on something more than the so called “facts” presented and do some research on their own. What really concerns me is how some members, that I have respect for, can seriously state something as a “fact” that is so easy to prove false. Like wb’s false claim of 90 percent harvest reduction and age claims in 400, 209 and acen8 claim that harvest numbers have not fallen. Why are these guys, again, that I have a level of respect for their input, claiming things that are totally untrue. They should realize they are going to get called out for posting total BS. As for the others, I pretty much chalk it up to guys who would rather argue than have a real conversation on an important subject. It really would be nice to at least see some links to research or something other than a quick google search on “good bighorn sheep books to read” type of response.