6 arc and 108 eld-m 200/400 yrd gel

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Jerry D

Im not getting into match here or anything but you have to compare impact velocities.

A 6.5 grendel almost matches the downloaded 6.5x55 loads. Its like 300 maybe 400 fps max behind the 6.5cm and
260. Thats like what, shoot a deer with these at 300 yards is like shooting a deer at 100 yards with the grendel + or -

The same with the 6mm offerings compared to a .243 at 300yards.

You have to realize these cases are fatter than the standard .223 and there are decent muzzle velocities out of them. They match or beat a .308 in everything but muzzle energy and high sectional densities help penetration.

My buddies uncle has hunted deer for years with a .22 250 here in Ontario. Kills them as dead as anything through the ribs.

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300FPS is a lot to give up when talking about hunting velocity.
As far as the 6mm goes, the 6PPC and thee 6mmBR as well as cartridges like the 6XC and the Dasher are already here and are here to stay. lots of good info and load data for them on them .
I doubt if anyone is going to sell those and start buying the newest greatest- well a few people might......

https://www.6mmbr.com/index.html
Cat

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Jerry D

Im not getting into match here or anything but you have to compare impact velocities.

A 6.5 grendel almost matches the downloaded 6.5x55 loads. Its like 300 maybe 400 fps max behind the 6.5cm and
260. Thats like what, shoot a deer with these at 300 yards is like shooting a deer at 100 yards with the grendel + or -

The same with the 6mm offerings compared to a .243 at 300yards.

You have to realize these cases are fatter than the standard .223 and there are decent muzzle velocities out of them. They match or beat a .308 in everything but muzzle energy and high sectional densities help penetration.

My buddies uncle has hunted deer for years with a .22 250 here in Ontario. Kills them as dead as anything through the ribs.

Sent from my SM-A530W using Tapatalk

If you think that giving up 300-400 fps doesn’t make a difference in terminal performance. You are very mistaken

If your thinking that a 6 arc would be a good hunting round. There are a few good threads up on here right now

One is for kurt505 and his experience shooting an elk with a 7mm berger combo in the shoulder
There’s another about how to track wounded game in the thick timber
And another about animals lost in the field

You would probably want pay special attention to the last two

[Jerry D]

I havent said shoot long range. All my comparisons have been at the same mv. 300 yards + or - for .308 based cartridges vs 100 yards for ar based cartridges. I also havent said go and shoot elk or moose with this cartridge. I believe it was deer and hogs that it will mostly be used on I had said.

Most bullets expand reliability above 2000fps and the new long range bullets are expanding down to like 1500fps or slower. Thats handgun speed territory with big wide bullets that really lack penetration and they kill too within their effective range.

I know I wouldn't stand in front of a 6mm or 6.5mm going 2500 fps at the muzzle.

Personally I think its great to have a 6mm offering standardized and backed with quality ammo for mag fed rifles for the people that use or have used them to hunt whether it be south of the border or hopefully in the not so distant future our non restricted ones here.


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[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Jerry D

Im not getting into match here or anything but you have to compare impact velocities.

A 6.5 grendel almost matches the downloaded 6.5x55 loads. Its like 300 maybe 400 fps max behind the 6.5cm and
260. Thats like what, shoot a deer with these at 300 yards is like shooting a deer at 100 yards with the grendel + or -

The same with the 6mm offerings compared to a .243 at 300yards.

You have to realize these cases are fatter than the standard .223 and there are decent muzzle velocities out of them. They match or beat a .308 in everything but muzzle energy and high sectional densities help penetration.

My buddies uncle has hunted deer for years with a .22 250 here in Ontario. Kills them as dead as anything through the ribs.

Sent from my SM-A530W using Tapatalk

Another good example of how the American ammo marketers have castrated the old European designed 6.5x55 "Swede". Get a modern action and load the Swede to modern 60,000 psi velocities and that statement becomes totally irrelevant and false. It beats the 6.5 Creedmoor, the .260 Rem and, most certainly, the Grendel .. and it can handle the heavy for caliber bullets with ease. American marketers and SAAMI simply don't want the marketplace to know that, but It's here to stay.

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Another good example of how the American ammo marketers have castrated the old European designed 6.5x55 "Swede". Get a modern action and load the Swede to modern 60,000 psi velocities and that statement becomes totally irrelevant and false. It beats the 6.5 Creedmoor, the .260 Rem and, most certainly, the Grendel .. and it can handle the heavy for caliber bullets with ease. American marketers and SAAMI simply don't want the marketplace to know that, but It's here to stay.

I totally agree, the 6.5x55 can do more, the problem is the saami spec it is tied to. It is limited for factory loads to much lower pressures. I have heard the European ammo is hotter, do they load to the saami specs? I also shoot a m38 mauser and it's not a strong as the m98. Can it handle the pressures of the full power loads? I'm shooting 140grain sbt gameking bullets with a minimum charge of IMR 4350. Should be about 2500fps and works great.

When you have older guns from an older cartridge that at the time were designed to operate at lower pressures, fast forward 100 years and its not safe for ammo manufactures to create high pressure loads and low pressure loads because they will get mixed up and people will blow their guns apart. The grendel and arc are spec'd at 52,000 psi probably for semi auto use and then go to a 6mm Creedmoor and the 6.5prc, your up to 62 and 65,000 psi!

[catnthehat]

There are many factory modified 96's on the Tradex website that are chambered for higher pressure cartridges than the standard Swede
Cat

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[antmai]

A birdie told me that a couple of police tactical units are heavily considering the arc.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

If you think that giving up 300-400 fps doesn’t make a difference in terminal performance. You are very mistaken

If your thinking that a 6 arc would be a good hunting round. There are a few good threads up on here right now

One is for kurt505 and his experience shooting an elk with a 7mm berger combo in the shoulder
There’s another about how to track wounded game in the thick timber
And another about animals lost in the field

You would probably want pay special attention to the last two

I hesitate to share this experience becuase there will be those with questions and those who will question .... but here's my 2 cents ....

I think there may some truth to this in real life hunting. I hit a bull moose at 200-250 yards broadside with a 6mm Rem Mag - he seemed to shake as if he were a dog shaking off water and started to move away into the willows, I chambered another round but he was through the thicket before I could manage a follow up.

A few seconds later I heard a BOOM. My father, came out of a cut line to my left and had shot the Bull with his 300 win. mag and he fell on the spot piling up like a sack of rocks. Similar distance. Similar entry points (different angles) and very different results.

When we examined the shots, my dads shot was through the shoulder quartering back with the "expected" amount of lethal damage one would expect.

The opposite shoulder had my bullet in there - it had not penetrated the shoulder blade. It went in and stopped. The moose would have likely survived this shot and walked away largely unharmed. It was like a bad dream. Nobody expected that.

This was 30 years ago, so I don't remember the bullet or bullet construction, but that was the last time I shot big game (anything larger than a deer) with this gun. It was a factory round, out of a factory box. That's all I can remember. Rifle was a Model 7.

It's not like the shot was bad, it just didn't have enough juice.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by EZM

I hesitate to share this experience becuase there will be those with questions and those who will question .... but here's my 2 cents ....

I think there may some truth to this in real life hunting. I hit a bull moose at 200-250 yards broadside with a 6mm Rem Mag - he seemed to shake as if he were a dog shaking off water and started to move away into the willows, I chambered another round but he was through the thicket before I could manage a follow up.

A few seconds later I heard a BOOM. My father, came out of a cut line to my left and had shot the Bull with his 300 win. mag and he fell on the spot piling up like a sack of rocks. Similar distance. Similar entry points (different angles) and very different results.

When we examined the shots, my dads shot was through the shoulder quartering back with the "expected" amount of lethal damage one would expect.

The opposite shoulder had my bullet in there - it had not penetrated the shoulder blade. It went in and stopped. The moose would have likely survived this shot and walked away largely unharmed. It was like a bad dream. Nobody expected that.

This was 30 years ago, so I don't remember the bullet or bullet construction, but that was the last time I shot big game (anything larger than a deer) with this gun. It was a factory round, out of a factory box. That's all I can remember. Rifle was a Model 7.

It's not like the shot was bad, it just didn't have enough juice.

hotrod for the times, likely a 100gr pointed soft point launching around 3100, landing around 2500 fps with 1500 ft/lb energy as well, you said opposite shoulder the bullet was found, sounds like it was of tough enough construction and of course just limited by it's sd in terms of penetration, i can only speculate but if you went through the moose into opposite shoulder and breached diaphram core and dumped that 1500 ft/lbs through those 16" of animal or however many inches it was, then it was likely dead on it's feet and would have fallen where it stopped, after smashing it again with the 300wm it may have been hard to tell what damage in the core came from which bullet, dead vs extra dead, you however didn't get smashed in the shoulder with 20 some ft/lbs recoil energy like the old man did but i think you shot just fine and had your moose without the back up

if people want to see moose leveled then by all means shoot as much recoil and bullet as you can handle without accuracy drops/flinches etc. but you don't have to, you can kill just fine with just about anything appropriate

[Big Lou]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

hotrod for the times, likely a 100gr pointed soft point launching around 3100, landing around 2500 fps with 1500 ft/lb energy as well, you said opposite shoulder the bullet was found, sounds like it was of tough enough construction and of course just limited by it's sd in terms of penetration, i can only speculate but if you went through the moose into opposite shoulder and breached diaphram core and dumped that 1500 ft/lbs through those 16" of animal or however many inches it was, then it was likely dead on it's feet and would have fallen where it stopped, after smashing it again with the 300wm it may have been hard to tell what damage in the core came from which bullet, dead vs extra dead, you however didn't get smashed in the shoulder with 20 some ft/lbs recoil energy like the old man did but i think you shot just fine and had your moose without the back up

if people want to see moose leveled then by all means shoot as much recoil and bullet as you can handle without accuracy drops/flinches etc. but you don't have to, you can kill just fine with just about anything appropriate

I believe that his use of opposite in this case is describing the opposite shoulder of that which his father shot. He’s talking a scenario where the bullet never got through the near shoulder when he shot is how I read that.

[Stinky Coyote]

that could be, i'm sure he'll be back to confirm, maybe it was an 80gr psp and with the sad sd i could see that, i think think a 100gr that held together would get through to the good bits, sd still a little light but if was just portion of bullet and it broke up then yup, wrong bullet for the job, shot placement sounded good though...i don't think the cartridge is to blame, just the bullet, 80 gr close to .2 sd which is where the recommendation for class 2 game starts and class 3 game starts at .25.......the 100 gr 6mm partition is .242 sd so if you're gonna attack class 3 game with a 6mm of any sort you want a tough 100 grain or better, there's been a lot of class 3 game killed with 100 gr partitions and no way that shoulder would have stopped that bullet, so this is a bullet issue only, wrong ammo chosen and back then they didn't know what we do now

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

that could be, i'm sure he'll be back to confirm, maybe it was an 80gr psp and with the sad sd i could see that, i think think a 100gr that held together would get through to the good bits, sd still a little light but if was just portion of bullet and it broke up then yup, wrong bullet for the job, shot placement sounded good though...i don't think the cartridge is to blame, just the bullet, 80 gr close to .2 sd which is where the recommendation for class 2 game starts and class 3 game starts at .25.......the 100 gr 6mm partition is .242 sd so if you're gonna attack class 3 game with a 6mm of any sort you want a tough 100 grain or better, there's been a lot of class 3 game killed with 100 gr partitions and no way that shoulder would have stopped that bullet, so this is a bullet issue only, wrong ammo chosen and back then they didn't know what we do now

The shoulder of an elk stopped Kurt’s 7mm with 180 gr bullets going at the same speed

[Buckhead]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

The shoulder of an elk stopped Kurt’s 7mm with 180 gr bullets going at the same speed

That would make sense. A Berger VLD Hunting bullet.
Their web site indicates that the jackets are made thinner than normal to promote rapid expansion. Not a bullet I would use on large game.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

That would make sense. A Berger VLD Hunting bullet.
Their web site indicates that the jackets are made thinner than normal to promote rapid expansion. Not a bullet I would use on large game.

So how well do you think a eldm that weighs half as much will do?

[marky_mark]

A 180gr 7mm bullet has a sd of .319 also

[Buckhead]

Sd is a pointless discussion without proper bullet construction.
I don't know why people want to use what are essentially match bullets for hunting?
I would rather have a lower sd and some good penetration ie...partition, accubond, tsx or something of that ilk.
I want to know that if the angle is off the bullet is still going to drive thru.
That's what has always worked for me.
An ELD-M is a grenade waiting to happen IMO.

[Stinky Coyote]

ya, too much speed and too light of construction for game intended is going to cause issues, the sd was there but bullet construction was not for the speeds....at 800 yards however, well, i think we've all seen how many elk were folded up by botw with 168 bergers from 7rm's about 10 years ago...many elk, so the speeds just needed to slow down so the bullets held together better

most people shoot inside 300 yards and most people shoot 2700-2900 fps or less cartridges where most bullet constructions get the job done most of the time, we all knew for a .243 the partition was known as the only way to fly anytime anything bigger than deer were on the menu...something that could hold together and retain sd to get through fatally

was Kurt's elk recovered? I'd have a hard time believing that 180 couldn't go deep enough, maybe frontal brisket or low brisket? i dunno, usually when Kurt talks i listen, sh0t happens so there's that too but without a recovery it's speculation, for anything 2900 fps and up i gravitated to accubonds, but i'm getting excellent penetration and internal work now at 24-2600 fps with higher sd lighter construction bullets

it's all a balancing act because if you go too tough on bullet construction and not enough speed you get sad internal damage and more penciling, penetration will be fine but the opening up and energy dumping internally will suck

i've no long got a desire to shoot big game past 300 and likely have a limit of 400 even under the most ideal conditions even though i set up rig to go to 600...the set up to go longer is for coyotes that hang up and practice

so if anyone is going to shoot some slower stuff like .308 etc. try an sd above .25 like a 168 gr (.253) and if it's of more rapid expansion construction you'll get awesome internal work along with adequate penetration...i shoot essentially this now but a 3/4 size version in most respects and half the recoil but it's working fantastic and as expected if not a little better than expected

each their own