6 arc and 108 eld-m 200/400 yrd gel

[Stinky Coyote]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t8XPuFJxnpI

I didn’t see chrony but 20” suggests 2650-2670 launch(20-25 fps/inch loss) and just under 2100 fps impact at 400 yards. Nice 2x expansion mushroom that went 25-26” in the gel. Was a little hotter and more explosive in the 200 yard gel, closet to 2400 fps impact. That .261 sd and .53 bc will be no joke out there but need a tougher bullet in close. And the eld-m always showing it’s got more hunting chops than the marketing suggests, at least at lower impact velocities.

This going to be one awesome little cartridge and fun to watch it grow. Even out of that 20” barrel still holding 1600 fps impact at 800 yards with a very high sd. Impressive.

[Jerry D]

Is it the same bolt face as the grendel?

If so and these do well, hopefully some more factory bolt guns become available in extra short actions.

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[urban rednek]

Interesting cartridge. It's almost like Hornady set out to create a slightly longer, yet weaker version of the 243. It will do well.
If only there was an AR platform that would handle 308 sized cases.

Tom Beckstrand, Rifles and Optics Editor at Guns & Ammo presents some details:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfaSisShgoc

[Stinky Coyote]

Yes it’s essentially a 6mm Grendel. Adds 170-220 fps and 150 yards effective range.

So all the current bolt actions will likely chamber it soon, cz, ruger, howa. And it’s popularity will bring some of the other players that have extra short action .223 based actions into the fold also.

It will likely becomes king of .223 length and single digit recoil energy cartridges.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

It will likely becomes king of .223 length and single digit recoil energy cartridges.

Or not.

It was designed around an AR platform you won't see a pile of them in Canada in bolt guns.
I also doubt very much that shooters and hunters are going too run out and dump their current rifles that do the same thing and buy a new rifle and loading gear for this cartridge unless they want the "latest greatest" thinking it will somehow help them, which most of the time it will not.
Cat

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Yes it’s essentially a 6mm Grendel. Adds 170-220 fps and 150 yards effective range.

So all the current bolt actions will likely chamber it soon, cz, ruger, howa. And it’s popularity will bring some of the other players that have extra short action .223 based actions into the fold also.

It will likely becomes king of .223 length and single digit recoil energy cartridges.

This round requires a medium length action, check out the specs shown at the 2:08 mark in the linked video in my previous post. The 6 ARC case is 2.135", versus a 223 at 1.760" and a 243 at 2.045"
If they had developed this round for a short action, they would have had a real winner.

ETA- thanks for pointing this out Nykstra.
I should clean my glasees before trying to read the small print. At 1.490", the 6 ARC case makes sense.

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

This round requires a medium length action, check out the specs shown at the 2:08 mark in the linked video in my previous post. The 6 ARC case is 2.135", versus a 223 at 1.760" and a 243 at 2.045"
If they had developed this round for a short action, they would have had a real winner.

You are crossing case length with overall length. The 6arc fits ar mag length. If the 6arc gains traction, 6.5grendel will be out

[Stinky Coyote]

ya urban, this is a cartridge that's designed to fit AR and micro bolt action length actions, Cartridge OAL 2.26"

standard short action .308 based cartridges with cartridge length OAL 2.80"

this cartridge is based off the 7.62x39 case, short fat, much like every popular benchrest wildcats such as 6ppc, 6-dasher, 6br but now in factory format that anyone can buy off the shelf, was just released this year...one of the few good things about 2020

[Jerry D]

Hornady has managed success with the 6.5cm and 6.5 prc.

I suspect this will be the same.

Ultimately they are taking every action boltface and platform and fine tuning to a modern cartridge that edges out older tech with more accuracy while providing factory ammo and factory chamberings.

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[Stinky Coyote]

Cat,

7.62x51 Nato designed in the 50's for M14 & M60 machine guns (semi and full auto)...military use. Based off the 30-06 Springfield performance as 40 years of progress in powder/bullet tech allowed similar performance in shorter lighter cartridge for go forward. Sound familiar? Heck even the time frame is similar...another 40-60 years of advancements.

Winchester shortly after made their version of it called .308 winchester and chambered in mod 70/88/100 to start...bolt action/lever/semi-auto.

So one of the most beloved cartridges of all time, the .308 came from military semi/full-auto development and became the number one sporting cartridge as well, bolt action/lever action/semi-auto/single shot for range/hunting, it's still the number one sold factory ammo in north america.

The .223 rem/5.56 nato development followed same path, goal for a more lightweight combat rifle development that led to the m16.

So all you're seeing here is more of the same. Another 40-50 years of advancements in tech and now blending performance levels previously held in the 2.8" short action class from a smaller lighter platform in the 2.26" class.

Your argument for this not becoming a successful cartridge because it's an 'AR' based cartridge will prove the opposite. It's correct in that it will be a slow progression into Canada because we don't have access to AR's...but that doesn't lesson how popular this will cross over to bolt actions just as the .308 or .223 has...because it is a fantastic high performance cartridge period, not because it was developed for a semi-auto military platform.

It's because this cartridge was developed to fit in AR's and added several hundred meters effective range to the .223...is why this has already been adopted by one DOD unit (as the former green beret guesses, likely special forces) is a pretty dang good sign that this is one cartridge to watch in terms of potential .223 take over.

The 6.5 Grendel (2004) has done incredibly well without the DOD adoption but it took a little longer to make it's mark, this 6 ARC will come out of the gate very hot and will eclipse the Grendel in half the time. My prediction.

Both .308 win/.223 rem (7.62x51 & 5.56 nato) developed in the 50's.
6.5 Grendel - 2004 (shot show release, development 2002 & 2003)
6.5 Creedmoor - 2008 (shot show release, development since 2005)
6.5 PRC - 2020 (shot show release)
6mm ARC - 2020 release date (although apparently fielded by special military unit for a year before official release)

So the revolution started in the early 2000's which is 50 years later than the early 50's when the .308/7.61x51 development started, and the .223/5.56 development started late 50's.

The oddity in those cartridges is the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5 PRC, they were developed for the target scene(creedmoor) and hunting scene(prc) and now Creedmoor being adopted by military. Everything else developed with military goals first, including the 6.5 Grendel...designed to be a 200-800 meter effective range with substantial improvement over the .223. By all accounts the 6.5 Grendel has more street cred than many give it, the 6-ARC obviously one upping it and having it fielded and approved by military before release.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Jerry D

Hornady has managed success with the 6.5cm and 6.5 prc.

I suspect this will be the same.

Ultimately they are taking every action boltface and platform and fine tuning to a modern cartridge that edges out older tech with more accuracy while providing factory ammo and factory chamberings.

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bingo, they have also managed success with the 6.5 Grendel support on the Bill Alexander introduction and rightfully so, awesome cartridge

the next 40-60 years of powder/bullet etc. developments and tech being applied currently, just happens hornady is a big part of this revolution and good for them, just as winchester/remington did in the 50's to bring the .308/.223.

The 7.62x51(.308 winchester) came about after 40 years of developments and tech over the 30-06 springfield...doing the same with less, less size, less weight, less recoil, carry more ammo etc. etc.

the .308 formula was obviously very successful

not sure why people get their backs up against this sort of thing?

it's been 50-60 years so it almost makes sense we'd have enough advancement to do another round of upgrades

[Nyksta]

The 6 arc will be a great alternate choice to 5.56 cartridge to introduce 7 year old girls to shooting center fire

[catnthehat]

The 45/70 is no more , and the 30'06 was killed by the 308, and the 270 Winchester was also killed by the 270WSM, and the .223 killed the .222 etc ,etc.
The reality is that cartridges do not go obsolete because something else magically appears , marketing has more to do with it than anything .
The 243 Winchester and the 6mm Remington are perfect examples , nothing to do with the cartridge and everything to do with how they were marketed .
Reality is hard to admit at times , but the reality is the cartridges all these newer cartridges are supposed to ursurp won't be going anywhere .
Cat

[Stinky Coyote]

Never said these cartridges will render the others obsolete Cat, just that they will become kings and outsell the 50 year old ones, just like the 50 year old ones did to the 40 year old ones before them...the .223 and .308 will be around forever, but there may be a day where the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6mm-ARC outsell them both. They certainly outperform them both using the next 50-60 years of advancements in their dna. Both have already seen military adoptions. Just a matter of time before they become kings in the segments.

You and i may not be able to have this chat at the next go around to do any 'see i told you so's' but the writing is on the wall where this is headed.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

The 6 arc will be a great alternate choice to 5.56 cartridge to introduce 7 year old girls to shooting center fire

Lmao, it sure will

you could have written just the first half of that and been true as well, the second half can be written a variety of funny ways too

Hey Chuck, i know you're gonna build one of these one day, what's it gonna be, Grendel or Arc? You're a fan of the .223, .243 & Creedmoor...something tells me you'll go the 6mm route for the heaviest for caliber higher bc/sd, just another of my predictions.

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

the writing is on the wall where this is headed.

The only writing on the wall with these new low recoil micro action cartridges is that there will soon be legislation introduced with minimum cartridge length or minimum energy requirements for hunting big game. The current minimum calibre rule to keep cartridge choices ethical is being skirted around.

[32-40win]

Arrrgh, just read something like that, yesterday, day before?, for minimum caliber on elk somewhere in the US, can't remember what it was, 270cal min? Kentucky? Wasn't a place that I would choose as a choice to hunt elk in.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

The only writing on the wall with these new low recoil micro action cartridges is that there will soon be legislation introduced with minimum cartridge length or minimum energy requirements for hunting big game. The current minimum calibre rule to keep cartridge choices ethical is being skirted around.

sure, that's progress lol, we went a step in the right direction deleting the length restriction, guys can shoot things with .44 magnums and have, how long has it been since we dropped the restriction? 2005-ish? 15 years, haven't seen too may complaints of wounding and tools being used improperly due to this change

i'm sure in older days with lesser gear and tech one needed to place a few more limits than now

imagine the .308 getting shut down in the 50's to ensure only 30-06 long action length cartridges were allowed

nah, you be trippin yo

modern performance, bullets, powders, etc. more than enough reason to remove that restriction and lots of history now to prove it was a good idea, more is better, cancel culture is bad

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by 32-40win

Arrrgh, just read something like that, yesterday, day before?, for minimum caliber on elk somewhere in the US, can't remember what it was, 270cal min? Kentucky? Wasn't a place that I would choose as a choice to hunt elk in.

be a sad day when the 6.5 creedmoor and 6.5 prc and 6.5 swede (a top choice moose cartridge in europe for how long?) wouldn't be allowed for elk, a 6.5 creedmoor can match a .270 win yard for yard in penetration and energy while burning 15 grains less powder, and that wimply 6.5x54 cartridge used by bell on elephants before he couldn't get ammo anymore is no good for elk? wow, they got some tough elk...

so would the 6.8 spc then be legal for elk where the 6.5 prc wouldn't? the 6.5 grendel and the 6-arc would be far better suited to up to 3-400 yard elk than the 6.8 spc (.277 cal, 110 gr)

silly notion

6.5 creedmoor and .270 win running premium 140's hit 2000 fps impact at about 600 yards, and the 6.5 has higher sd...hmmm

[Jerry D]

Here where I live, there are caliber restrictions for small game such as coyotes.

.270 or less, so no .277 wins or .30 cals yet 6.5 and 6mms are fine and more people use them for distance shooting than ever before.

Laws normally dont make much sense and are slow to change

People used to say 1000 ft lbs energy for deer. It means nothing as far as performance on game goes with controlled expansion bullets.

For me, I'd take a micro bolt action for sure deer hunting as a starting platform for youth. As you move up in size and get older. 40-50gr powder charges throwing 120-150gr bullets is a real sweet spot as far as recoil, muzzle blast and shooter comfort go.

There is no doubt that the standard short action and long action cartridges will remain more popular in bolt action platforms due to their increased horse power, these micro length rounds though no doubt will have their place as well due to the popularity of their semi auto platform and some I'm sure will spill into the bolt actions.

Im looking forward to seeing some lightweight rigs shooting these cartridges.


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[Faststeel]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Never said these cartridges will render the others obsolete Cat, just that they will become kings and outsell the 50 year old ones, just like the 50 year old ones did to the 40 year old ones before them...the .223 and .308 will be around forever, but there may be a day where the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6mm-ARC outsell them both. They certainly outperform them both using the next 50-60 years of advancements in their dna. Both have already seen military adoptions. Just a matter of time before they become kings in the segments.

You and i may not be able to have this chat at the next go around to do any 'see i told you so's' but the writing is on the wall where this is headed.

Pretty sure 6.5 Creed is the best selling cartridge in the USA the last couple of years.....FS

[cbc_anderson]

Stinky, I built a 6mm AR (a necked-down 6.5 Grendel, and a precursor/slight variant to the 6ARC) last winter. I agree that it is a really handy cartridge. 105 Berger hybrid bullets for target, and 85 grain Gamekings for hunting. It makes for a very fun short to mid-range hunting (hogs and whitetails) and longer-range target shooting rifle/cartridge combination here in Texas. My rifle is an AR. The good news for my all my brothers in Alberta is that the use of this cartridge in ARs down here in the US may make it popular enough to keep it as an option in factory bolt-action rifles as well. Hornady will help keep ammunition on the shelves. But to be honest, once I start thinking about a bolt-action, I'd choose 6mm Creedmoor or even 6mm Dasher or 243 Win in a short action vs. the 6 ARC in a mini-action. Time will tell, I guess. I reload, so keep buying 6.5 Grendel -- it is my feed source for 6mm AR brass :-)

[Roamer]

Dang it Stinky. Your explanation has made me realize I’m 50 years behind, maybe even 90!?

When it comes to intermediate cartridges I always say: why would I buy that when I can download a short action cartridge.... blah... blah... blah

It has just now occurred to me that in the 50’s there was some guy just like me, he was saying: why would I buy a short action when I could download my... blah... blah.... blah

Perspective.

But I’m and old soul, change is bad! Haha

Maybe one day I’ll build a 6ARC for my daughter when she’s ready to hunt.... Or.... download a 243... haha

I do agree that these cartridges show promise and will likely rise to great heights of popularity, they have good merits.

[urban rednek]

This video might be of interest: 60 coyotes with a suppressed 6 ARC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_1CS8P7_BI

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Roamer

Dang it Stinky. Your explanation has made me realize I’m 50 years behind, maybe even 90!?

When it comes to intermediate cartridges I always say: why would I buy that when I can download a short action cartridge.... blah... blah... blah

It has just now occurred to me that in the 50’s there was some guy just like me, he was saying: why would I buy a short action when I could download my... blah... blah.... blah

Perspective.

But I’m and old soul, change is bad! Haha

Maybe one day I’ll build a 6ARC for my daughter when she’s ready to hunt.... Or.... download a 243... haha

I do agree that these cartridges show promise and will likely rise to great heights of popularity, they have good merits.

It's just another cartridge designed for he AR platform, so I doubt very much if it is going to unseat the 6PPC or the 6mmBR anytime soon in the SBR , Fclass, and varmint World in Canada

"The 6mm ARC is a factory cartridge which has many similarities with the 6mm AR wildcat cartridge. The case volume of the 6mm ARC is about 2.20 mL (34 grains of water), and the volume therefore lies between those of the two popular 6 mm benchrest cartridges 6mm PPC of 2.10 ml (32 grains of water) and 6mm BR of 2.50 ml (38.5 grains of water). However, the 6mm AR and 6mm ARC separate themselves from the mentioned benchrest cartridges in that they were designed with a 30-degree shoulder angle to ensure reliable feeding in an AR-15 rifle."
Cat

[marky_mark]

Why would you buy a 6 arc when you can get a 6gt?

The chase for the lowest amount of gun powder in a case and still having it go bang when you pull the trigger is ridiculous.

Even worse is when someone suggests it should be a hunting round

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Why would you buy a 6 arc when you can get a 6gt?

The chase for the lowest amount of gun powder in a case and still having it go bang when you pull the trigger is ridiculous.

Even worse is when someone suggests it should be a hunting round

Would you think a .30 06 would knock a deer down at 800 yards all day if hit good? Whats its mv at those distances? Now if you can match that muzzle velocity and go to a lower recoiling cartridge and limit shots to a couple hundred yards go for it. Its no different, same mv at impact speed.

These 6mm and 6.5 offerings will be very lethal and most of their game will most likely be wild pigs in the south.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Jerry D

Would you think a .30 06 would knock a deer down at 800 yards all day if hit good? Whats its mv at those distances? Now if you can match that muzzle velocity and go to a lower recoiling cartridge and limit shots to a couple hundred yards go for it. Its no different, same mv at impact speed.

These 6mm and 6.5 offerings will be very lethal and most of their game will most likely be wild pigs in the south.

Have you shot any big game animals with a ar sized case?

I’m talking real world, first hand results
Not digging up some stats online?

I have, and they all required multiple rounds to finally dispatch the animal.
To me that’s 100% unethical.
And I was just shooting deer

[Jerry D]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Have you shot any big game animals with a ar sized case?



I’m talking real world, first hand results

Not digging up some stats online?



I have, and they all required multiple rounds to finally dispatch the animal.

To me that’s 100% unethical.

And I was just shooting deer

Im not getting into match here or anything but you have to compare impact velocities.

A 6.5 grendel almost matches the downloaded 6.5x55 loads. Its like 300 maybe 400 fps max behind the 6.5cm and
260. Thats like what, shoot a deer with these at 300 yards is like shooting a deer at 100 yards with the grendel + or -

The same with the 6mm offerings compared to a .243 at 300yards.

You have to realize these cases are fatter than the standard .223 and there are decent muzzle velocities out of them. They match or beat a .308 in everything but muzzle energy and high sectional densities help penetration.

My buddies uncle has hunted deer for years with a .22 250 here in Ontario. Kills them as dead as anything through the ribs.

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[kayaker]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

So all the current bolt actions will likely chamber it soon, cz, ruger, howa. And it’s popularity will bring some of the other players that have extra short action .223 based actions into the fold also.

In bolt guns Howa has apparently confirmed it will be in the mini, I see 2 Savage models (10 Tactical and Axis) for sale already in the US. I really hope CZ does the 527 but haven’t seen anything to confirm that. I have been after a 527 varmint for a while and one in 6ARC would be sweet.