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  #121  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:37 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
what if the lighter bullet has a higher SD?.. just thought I'd ask
Doesn’t matter what it weighs. Same impact velocity, the higher sd bullet goes deeper.
  #122  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:40 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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For sure. I'm all mixed up.. tring to follow your math and BS
Lol, the hockey game was great, I can play again. The good thing is you’re hanging in there.😉
  #123  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:41 PM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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I assumed pretty much anyone capable of reading this thread would have the common sense to know a bowling ball is going to beat a baseball in a head on. If it’s a comparison of penetration however, this type of test would prove nothing, all it proves is that a heavier object will beat a lighter object in a collision. For the test to be equal it should be a 5lb bowling ball vs like a 7lb bowling ball though.

If I throw a 15lb bowling ball at a moose and a 10lb spear at a moose, which one will have more penetration? If I throw them at each other, which one will win? Two of the same test subjects in two different tests with two different winners.
You asked for an explination I gave it to you. Had nothing to do with penetration. Not sure where you are getting that from.

If you are feeling upset thinking the original question highlighting that there was an imbalance of kinetic energy was mean. It was meant to highlight that fact for people disregarding that energy is used opon impact. From what I recall you were not among them.
  #124  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:45 PM
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One more physics question, if this thread is going downhill at 10 posts/ hr how long till it crashes and burns?
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  #125  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:47 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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For sure. I'm all mixed up.. tring to follow your math and BS
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Originally Posted by Bushrat View Post
6.5 cal TTSX fired from the east, 30 cal TTSX fired from the west, both have the same sectional density and velocity, they hit each other head on perfectly, which one wins?
Ya they have to shoot at the same target. Tie game if same impact velocity. Dead critter. And possibly one scoped eyebrow and ringing ears.😉
  #126  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:48 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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You asked for an explination I gave it to you. Had nothing to do with penetration. Not sure where you are getting that from.

If you are feeling upset thinking the original question highlighting that there was an imbalance of kinetic energy was mean. It was meant to highlight that fact for people disregarding that energy is used opon impact. From what I recall you were not among them.
You are correct, I was not among them. There are people who like to take something that is said and blow it out of context, I’m not saying you are one of them, but that’s why I had made my comment, I purposely took what Bushrat had said out of context just to show that there could be an arguement against his point, not that I didn’t agree with him, but his test wasn’t a fair comparison for penetration, that’s all.

Actually, looking back what I did say about kinetic energy is that I have a set minimum I feel is acceptable for hunting.

Last edited by Kurt505; 12-06-2018 at 10:55 PM.
  #127  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:48 PM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Lol, no flip flopping,
Let me help to jog your memory a bit on this one.

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There are some that feel ft/lbs are important. I didn’t include it because it, and momentum, are useless figures.
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Ft/lbs energy is like a soother, nobody wants to let go of it. Momentum is interesting number but it’s just tied into and part of the sd equation, it only confuses people more but isn’t a factor that makes a difference. /**/Hence, different numbers matter, impact velocities and sd...providing the obvious that bullet construction appropriate for game intended.
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Greater energy and diam. may give you bit bigger holes and wound channels.
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Energy is there, however it’s essentially useless figure
Energy and larger diam. can give more wound channel damage.
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I agree with you, energy is there, trust me I know the formula off by heart and have for used for 20 yrs. /*/ speed vs energy...I got you man.
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The only thing that carries energy is your shoulder and sometimes that little spot between your eyes.
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I forgot how important energy was, how could I have forgotten?
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It’s missing for a reason, it’s largely irrelevant. Show me how it matters? The energy that does really matter is noted though.
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I wonder if he knew how important that sd was? It sure wasn’t energy and momentum. It’s was all sd and impact velocity

Last edited by Jeron Kahyar; 12-06-2018 at 10:55 PM.
  #128  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:54 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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I like the bowling ball vs spear. Bowling ball beats spear if thrown at each other? Same force imparted on each other and both rock
Hard so no penetration. If hit dead on it would be a tie. Throw both at a deer and that lousy sd of the bowling ball winds it, while the spear goes clean through because of that really high sd. Penetration. Dead deer. You wanna pound yourself with magnums that’s fine, you get minimal result on the other end compared to the result on your shoulder and eye brow, whatever ratio you’re happy with.👍
  #129  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:57 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Jeron, sarcasm eludes you? Engineer perhaps?
  #130  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:57 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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[Magnum cartridges are] “so inefficient that no one in his right mind could see anything good in them except sales possibilities … It would be fine if by putting a belt on a case and advertising it as a magnum it would revolutionize the industry, but it only revolutionizes sales.”

Parker
Otto
Ackley

  #131  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:02 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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[Magnum cartridges are] “so inefficient that no one in his right mind could see anything good in them except sales possibilities … It would be fine if by putting a belt on a case and advertising it as a magnum it would revolutionize the industry, but it only revolutionizes sales.”

Parker
Otto
Ackley

Lol, yup. Weatherby has done well.

I’m drawn to efficiency, the whole reason for these posts. The minimal gains in killing potential compared to all the extra recoil aren’t worth it through those eyes. For many folks every bit extra matters. You can do more with less, get sd up and slow it down, and voila...ballistic champs, have your cake and eat it too.
  #132  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:04 PM
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I like the bowling ball vs spear. Bowling ball beats spear if thrown at each other? Same force imparted on each other and both rock
Hard so no penetration. If hit dead on it would be a tie. Throw both at a deer and that lousy sd of the bowling ball winds it, while the spear goes clean through because of that really high sd. Penetration. Dead deer. You wanna pound yourself with magnums that’s fine, you get minimal result on the other end compared to the result on your shoulder and eye brow, whatever ratio you’re happy with.👍
The 308 Winchester is hardly a magnum but it is considered to be an efficient cartridge .
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  #133  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:07 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Lol, yup. Weatherby has done well.

I’m drawn to efficiency, the whole reason for these posts. The minimal gains in killing potential compared to all the extra recoil aren’t worth it through those eyes. For many folks every bit extra matters. You can do more with less, get sd up and slow it down, and voila...ballistic champs, have your cake and eat it too.
I’m an Ackley fan, he is all about efficiency. I bet he would be impressed with the direction hornady is going with the Creedmoor and the PRC. I wouldn’t doubt he is part of their inspiration behind their case design.
  #134  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:09 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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I think the point is one hits with more force
Sure, did both moose die and which one took more force? Or did the magnums put more into the dirt?

The point is, more is not better, not more efficient etc. The 60 percent more recoil should show 60% more damage or depth or 60%!faster kill etc. But that’s not how it works, you take 60% more recoil and you maybe get 15% gain in wound channel damage? Worth it?
  #135  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:21 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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[Magnum cartridges are] “so inefficient that no one in his right mind could see anything good in them except sales possibilities … It would be fine if by putting a belt on a case and advertising it as a magnum it would revolutionize the industry, but it only revolutionizes sales.”

Parker
Otto
Ackley

Why are Magnums always brought up? No one singled them out except Stinky. They were designed for a purpose and a lot of shooters have a purpose for them. Inefficient is up to the user to determine .Inefficient powder burn maybe, but effective for what it was made for. Do you own a truck?
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  #136  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:25 PM
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Sure, did both moose die and which one took more force? Or did the magnums put more into the dirt?

The point is, more is not better, not more efficient etc. The 60 percent more recoil should show 60% more damage or depth or 60%!faster kill etc. But that’s not how it works, you take 60% more recoil and you maybe get 15% gain in wound channel damage? Worth it?
Down range, that’s where the magnum becomes more useful. The distance down range has become a little further however when you start using modern bullet technology (controlled expansion), high ballistic coefficients (heavy for caliber), and proper twist rates to stabilize the bullets. Still, if you want to play the long range game you’re going to need the down range energy in order to maintain the intended bullet performance. Problem is, most average hunters can’t shoot good enough to take advantage of what the magnum cartridges have to offer. Accepting this fact is sometimes a tough pill to swallow.
  #137  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:27 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Why are Magnums always brought up? No one singled them out except Stinky. They were designed for a purpose and a lot of shooters have a purpose for them. Inefficient is up to the user to determine .Inefficient powder burn maybe, but effective for what it was made for. Do you own a truck?
Why are you asking me????

Stinky brought it up in post 128, I just responded to it. I’m no more guilty of bringing up magnums than you are!
  #138  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:32 PM
41thunder 41thunder is offline
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Let me help to jog your memory a bit on this one.

/***********/
He’s got selective hearing. It’s like talking to a wall. Obviously there’s a few people that think he’s missing a couple calculations. It’s like passing a gas station when it’s minus 30 outside, your vehicle say 50 km to empty, and the next town is 45km away. You might make it. But you also might not
  #139  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:40 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Down range, that’s where the magnum becomes more useful. The distance down range has become a little further however when you start using modern bullet technology (controlled expansion), high ballistic coefficients (heavy for caliber), and proper twist rates to stabilize the bullets. Still, if you want to play the long range game you’re going to need the down range energy in order to maintain the intended bullet performance. Problem is, most average hunters can’t shoot good enough to take advantage of what the magnum cartridges have to offer. Accepting this fact is sometimes a tough pill to swallow.
Controlled expansion bullets have been around forever and are not a new product of "modern" development. Neither have high BC Bullets and there's always been heavy for caliber bullets. What you have today are some sleeker new bullets that are improved somewhat. They are not a product of your generation.. just an improvement,,and a welcome one..
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Last edited by Salavee; 12-06-2018 at 11:48 PM.
  #140  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:48 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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just an improvement,,and a welcome one..

Yes, an improvement, technology has improved, improving bullet performance and allowing us to make ethical kills further down range than before. This in turn has moved the advantages of a magnum further down range. What hasn’t changed is human ability. Just because your rifle is capable of making an ethical kill at 1200yds, it doesn’t mean you are.

Eldx, ABLR, both bullets of my generation and modern design. Game changers imo.

Last edited by Kurt505; 12-06-2018 at 11:59 PM.
  #141  
Old 12-07-2018, 12:00 AM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Yes, an improvement, technology has improved, improving bullet performance and allowing us to make ethical kills further down range than before. This in turn has moved the advantages of a magnum further down range. What hasn’t changed is human ability. Just because your rifle is capable of making an ethical kill at 1200yds, it doesn’t mean you are.
.. But.. I always assume other shooters are my peers. Apparently you put yourself far above them from what I read in to your posts.
That ability is proven in competition if you're so inclined to prove yourself.
As with many other things that require skill, everyone has different goals. If they think they are the best they try and prove in the various competitions. I'm not one of them but maybe you should give it a go.
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  #142  
Old 12-07-2018, 12:29 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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.. But.. I always assume other shooters are my peers. Apparently you put yourself far above them from what I read in to your posts.
That ability is proven in competition if you're so inclined to prove yourself.
As with many other things that require skill, everyone has different goals. If they think they are the best they try and prove in the various competitions. I'm not one of them but maybe you should give it a go.
Give your head a shake. I’m the first to admit a 600 yd shot is at the far end of my shooting at big game, maybe read what I write instead of making up the bs! You got your nose bent so far out of shape it doesn’t matter what I write you go on the attack. Stinky brings up magnums, you whine at me. I have repeatedly said I don’t need a magnum for my shooting ablilities, now you whine that I think I’m above everyone. It’s one thing to complain about what I write, but you’re making things up, then whining about it.

Smarten up, you’re not making yourself seem too sharp.
  #143  
Old 12-07-2018, 05:04 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Just comparing factory to factory, I’ve read the Grendel is loaded to 2650-2750 in 20” and 24” barrels. Reloaders can make cartridges a lot kore versatile. I’m simply showing baseline comparisons so people know what the new stuff can do compared to long time standards and where things fit.
Purhaps we can figure this out our selves since we have the numbers.

So the velocities numbers changed from 2580 to 2750 ft-per seconds for the Grendel using the 123gr bullets compared to the Winchester 308 shooting at 2840 from 2700 ft-per seconds using a 165.

We know that the extended target is 300 meters,,,

X times Y= K over BS with distance of 300 in ? that impacts critter F / Fur.

Now that the rest of us "including SC who agrees that energy "does" exists means that Heat / Food = Yum Yum "if" the trajectory SD and BC both work in unison to deliver the goods with in the W/ Wrapper. Ha.

Once we look at these numbers and letters, its easy to figure out the math related to the science,,, add in the Plato 80/20 rule,,, then reverse it for a safety factor of 20/80 to expel the myth of unknowns.

U divided C = % unknown since the C might be standing 1/4 or 0.25 to the hill of mass with a light cross breeze of fluxuating winds of 3.21 winds from C to U at 52 degrees.

Not that this makes alot of difference since C is well with in U,,, or was that X or Y,,,,, Hummmmm.

Oh well,,, any how,,, let's say we heard Wack,,, some might say the "Pa-Pack" sound,,, we can smell the B/ by S that things are hopefully working out for the mighty H.

Hopefully C excepts the gift of 6.5 or 308,,, not saying that none of can't add in 243 or 408 at our own choosing to end up with a K,,, this was the goal when we left H wasn't it.

No matter how many times we add A to B it normally works out for BS or another BHA BHA is needed in the equation

Of course the majority of us shooters who could really give a R/A just go out to H. That's the simplest math.

Yuppers,,, find a B + C / $ by distance,,, energy to drag + mass of 3 feet to square box,,, energy or calories of grin from ear-to-ear. + energy to H to Bed mass.

It all repeats it's self the next day when U go H over X amount of T,,, that's also a good math equation. LOL.

Don't know since each H gets to add or subtract their own numbers and letters.

Dam it's cold up here in Northern O,,, I guess G + time = YE / HA.

At least I can say I tried my math skills this morning.

Here Moose Moose + Moose. Ha
  #144  
Old 12-07-2018, 05:44 AM
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Doesn’t matter what it weighs. Same impact velocity, the higher sd bullet goes deeper.
Not all the time tooooo many factors to stay consistant with a report like that....

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  #145  
Old 12-07-2018, 05:48 AM
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Default Magnum, from the Latin for 'great', may refer to:

Anything that you think is great......like frosted flakes.


So that being said 308 or whatever that other was in the hands of the beholder it may be of magnum proportions......great.
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  #146  
Old 12-07-2018, 06:57 AM
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Bahahahaha. I resisted looking at this thread for whenever.

But also lusting after a grendal ...... one day.


Hahaha this picture says it all. Thanks. Glad I came. No need for page 2.
  #147  
Old 12-07-2018, 07:09 AM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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Curious to what criteria needs to be met to designate a chambering inefficient? What makes one more efficient then the other?
  #148  
Old 12-07-2018, 07:24 AM
41thunder 41thunder is offline
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Give your head a shake. I’m the first to admit a 600 yd shot is at the far end of my shooting at big game, maybe read what I write instead of making up the bs! You got your nose bent so far out of shape it doesn’t matter what I write you go on the attack. Stinky brings up magnums, you whine at me. I have repeatedly said I don’t need a magnum for my shooting ablilities, now you whine that I think I’m above everyone. It’s one thing to complain about what I write, but you’re making things up, then whining about it.

Smarten up, you’re not making yourself seem too sharp.
See, This is the attitude everyone doesn’t appreciate. I’d really be interested to know who the real person is behind the screen, and what gives you the right to talk to people the way you do? You change your story all the time. Sorry, but you do. Now your max range is 600 yards? You do realize your probably not gaining much with a eldx or a ablr over a normal accubond which has been in the market for a long time. Argue argue argue.
  #149  
Old 12-07-2018, 07:26 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Curious to what criteria needs to be met to designate a chambering inefficient? What makes one more efficient then the other?
If you honestly want to learn about what makes a cartridge efficient look up P.O. Ackley. It was his area of expertise. His goal was to maximize the efficiency of any cartridge.

Of course you may already know this and just want someone else’s opinion on the matter.

Powder burned vs speed gained, pick your projectile.
  #150  
Old 12-07-2018, 07:38 AM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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If you honestly want to learn about what makes a cartridge efficient look up P.O. Ackley. It was his area of expertise. His goal was to maximize the efficiency of any cartridge.

Of course you may already know this and just want someone else’s opinion on the matter.

Powder burned vs speed gained, pick your projectile.
No just wanted your opinion. I can’t fault nor will I for your way of thinking but they way I read your post is you’re willing to compromise speed to burn less powder? Is this to save money? Seems to me that powder is the cheaper of all ingredients to make a bullet come out the barrel. In my mind efficiency is
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