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  #151  
Old 05-13-2018, 11:28 PM
SakoShooter SakoShooter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by marky_mark View Post
Sooo what’s wrong with giving first hand knowledge of seeing issues with this cartridge? I think your missing the point?
Everyone’s free to make their own decisions. Everything has its pros and cons
I love the 6.5’s but I’ve seen this cartridges have some real life, real world on game performance issues.
Take it or leave it
That’s your call
Anecdotal evidence is pretty much meaningless due to small sample size and lack of controls. There's a reason I don't take your concerns about the 6.5 creedmoor on antelope sized game seriously....a century of the 6.5x55 swede proving itself on countless head of game ring a bell?

Sorry, to me that means a whole lot more than your hunting pals gut shooting an antelope or three.
  #152  
Old 05-14-2018, 08:51 AM
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elkhunter11, for all the reloaders and guys who take things beyond the factory level of guns and ammo then the 6.5 creedmoor isn't at all necessary or even the best option

the good stuff about the creedmoor is that for the masses of shooters who don't take the gun stuff to elite levels the creedmoor is an unbelievable choice, it might be the most versatile cartridge designed yet and can do the most with the powder burned, the popularity is warranted and that's actually a really good thing for the rifle crowds both target/hunting etc.

to succeed gravitating to preferred action lengths is a must, the reasons the .260 or swede have never taken off are obvious, sure some marketing has helped get this thing where it needs to be but it should be where it is and the faster the better

.308 win is so popular for so long because of a variety of reasons, military round, short action, solid performance from target to hunting, all that makes ammo, rifles, easy to find

the 6.5 creedmoor takes that same formula and brings 21st century knowledge and design to it, i'm not surprised to hear rumors that military is looking at it, to dethrone the .308 win would be massive but it should, it is superior in so many respects as stated previously, there's not many angles, if any, you could present to show otherwise...popularity doesn't mean it isn't warranted, in this case it's because it is more than warranted

on a side note for other thread information....no one has mentioned sectional densities for hunting, the number used to determine penetration capabilities when comparing bullets, there is a reason you won't be seeing many threads about 'too much game walking away from the 6.5 creedmoor threads, going back to a magnum'

the s.d. of a 123 gr 6.5 bullet is .252, the s.d. of a 168 gr .308 bullet is .253

s.d. of 140 gr 6.5 is .287, s.d. of 178 gr .30 cal is .268, s.d. of 195 gr .30 cal is .294

s.d. of 147 gr 6.5 is .301, s.d. of .30 cal 208 gr is .313

and since some of us know how the 160 gr 6.5 swede loads can penetrate large dangerous African game nearly beyond belief...the s.d. of that 160 gr 6.5mm bullet is .328

also for reference and some charts or recommendations out there for big game hunting s.d.'s over .250 are recommended for 3rd class game like elk/moose, the deer size game are 2nd class and lots of bullets of course under the .250 are recommended there

to get s.d. over .250 in .30 cal you need to be about 168 gr and up...

when you factor in the s.d. for hunting, then the b.c. for retained energy/velocity then you see why the 6.5 creedmoor seems to be an over-achiever, it kicks the crap out of the .308 win more and more as the distances increase to the point you might be comparing to 300 win mag on ballistics...the little 6.5 Grendel with it's 123 gr load mimicks very closely the s.d. and trajectory of the .308 running a 168 gr! The Grendel fits in the AR platform, again thankfully, as for that super short .223 length action it's thee equivalent to the creedmoor vs .308, the Grendel blows the .223 or 7.62x39 out of the water in all the same ways. I could see military looking at both the grendel and the creedmoor to replace the .223 and .308 for 21st century options to carry on for a long long time

you have to burn so much more powder and run so much heavier bullets in longer actions/heavier rifles to do what these new 6.5's can do in the most popular action lengths if looking at .30 cal options

the more popular they get the better for all the gun world(hunters/target/military/law), the new standards are coming!
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Last edited by Stinky Coyote; 05-14-2018 at 09:09 AM.
  #153  
Old 05-14-2018, 10:49 AM
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caveat to the above, when i talk about action length i am also meaning standard magazine lengths with it at the same time

you can make .260 rems and others do what the creedmoor does but modifications necessary from custom work, re-barrel, reloading etc.

the creedmoor does it all right out of the gate, was designed to do so from the beginning, so was the grendel, and so is the prc

to the OP, great choice in cartridge! some great rifles choices in that price range, and there will always be plenty of factory ammo for it for many generations i'm sure
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  #154  
Old 05-14-2018, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Thumper View Post
Buy a weatherby vanguard for 800.00 (or a bit less) excellent rifles and really good shooters. In my opinion, about the best value in the market.
x2, good choice, howa action!
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  #155  
Old 05-14-2018, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
caveat to the above, when i talk about action length i am also meaning standard magazine lengths with it at the same time

you can make .260 rems and others do what the creedmoor does but modifications necessary from custom work, re-barrel, reloading etc.

the creedmoor does it all right out of the gate, was designed to do so from the beginning, so was the grendel, and so is the prc

to the OP, great choice in cartridge! some great rifles choices in that price range, and there will always be plenty of factory ammo for it for many generations i'm sure
I am so baffled as to why people are threatened by this.
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  #156  
Old 05-14-2018, 12:47 PM
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lol, insecurity

cartridge bullies

the creedmoor fights back

be humble my bro's from other mo's
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  #157  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:28 PM
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It seems like Hornady is onto something big in regards to case developemnt. The haters should be busy for the next few years to come!
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  #158  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
It seems like Hornady is onto something big in regards to case developemnt. The haters should be busy for the next few years to come!
If it's the PRC you're referring to, that one is a Big Game Cartridge designed to do what many CM guys think it can do. Big Difference.
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  #159  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
If it's the PRC you're referring to, that one is a Big Game Cartridge designed to do what many CM guys think it can do. Big Difference.
Give it a rest already!

You sound like a broken record!!

Even video footage proof isn't proof enough for you.

Seriously.
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  #160  
Old 05-14-2018, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Give it a rest already!

You sound like a broken record!!

Even video footage proof isn't proof enough for you.

Seriously.
Video Proof ?.. on You Tube ? .. Seems your the one doing all the chirping. I just respond.

Keep it cool.
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  #161  
Old 05-14-2018, 03:25 PM
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prompted a google

stole this from outdoor life article...but the creedmoor was released by hornady 2007

"The 6.5 Creedmoor was different, however. Neither of these scenarios applied. Instead, it was born out of a gripe session between one frustrated shooter and his friend. The shooter was Dennis DeMille, a legend in the world of High Power Rifle competition. The friend was Dave Emary, senior ballistician at Hornady Manufacturing. The date was August 2005, and the location was the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio."

this i found on wikipedia which i thought was fantastic news but double the likelyhood of hits at 1000m over the .308 win and comparable to 300 win mag instead is pretty significant

Military use[edit]
In October 2017, U.S. Special Operations Command tested the performance of 7.62 NATO, .260 Remington, and 6.5 Creedmoor cartridges out of SR-25, M110A1, and Mk 20 sniper rifles. SOCOM determined that 6.5 Creedmoor performed the best, doubling hit probability at 1,000 meters, increasing effective range by nearly half, reducing wind drift by a third and having less recoil than 7.62 NATO rounds. Because the two rounds have similar dimensions, the same magazines can be used and a rifle can be converted with a barrel change. This led to its adoption and fielding by special operations snipers to replace the 7.62 NATO cartridge in their semi-automatic sniper rifles, planned in early 2019. In response to SOCOM's adoption, the Department of Homeland Security also decided to adopt the round.[24][25]

since prc came up it's a hornady thing as well

the grendel was Bill Alexander of Alexander Arms, but hornady was the first to really get behind it, so yes, hornady is definitely on the ball and instrumental in getting the 6.5 revolution going but really its more the saami spec high bc, fast twist, fit in standard length magazines/actions movement that they are really getting going....don't have to do custom everything anymore

more wikipedia on grendel, it was first really, ar15 platform driven/military replacement driven to improve .223 performance

"January 2004: Alexander Arms officially introduces their new cartridge, dubbed the 6.5mm Grendel, at the SHOT Show. They introduce both a line of rifles and ammunition.

Nov 2009: Hornady teams with Alexander Arms to produce 6.5mm Grendel ammunition, cartridge cases, and dedicated projectiles. They introduce a 123 grain AMAX load, which quickly gains a reputation for excellent accuracy."

so hornady is covering the bases...ar10 and short action platform, ar15 platform (only a few mini bolt actions to take advantage of this round so far) and now the prc for the hunters who want more than what short action standard cartridges can deliver...well played hornady!

6.5 Grendel 2004
6.5 Creedmoor 2007
6.5 PRC 2018 (hornady 2018 new products launch)

PRC in development since 2013, i think the grendel was in development since about 2002-2003 and not sure how long the creedmoor was before it's release?
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Last edited by Stinky Coyote; 05-14-2018 at 03:34 PM.
  #162  
Old 05-14-2018, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Video Proof ?.. on You Tube ? .. Seems your the one doing all the chirping. I just respond.

Keep it cool.
Ya, your right.... it's all gotta be fake.


I personally got in touch with John Barsness, you may have heard of him, he's a gun writer for a few magazines, his entire world kind of revolves around guns and hunting. He was one of the people I got advise from before settling on the Creedmoor. He suggested I make my new custom rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor based on his expirience with the cartridge.

No offense, but I'll take his advise on rifles or cartridges any day over yours. My Neighbor might tell me why my elbow hurts some days but I'll take my doctors advise over my neighbors on that any day.
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  #163  
Old 05-14-2018, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Ya, your right.... it's all gotta be fake.


I personally got in touch with John Barsness, you may have heard of him, he's a gun writer for a few magazines, his entire world kind of revolves around guns and hunting. He was one of the people I got advise from before settling on the Creedmoor. He suggested I make my new custom rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor based on his expirience with the cartridge.

No offense, but I'll take his advise on rifles or cartridges any day over yours. My Neighbor might tell me why my elbow hurts some days but I'll take my doctors advise over my neighbors on that any day.
Fantastic ! You can visit John regularly on the 24 hr Campfire forum.
He also authored a book called "The Big Book of Gun Gack ".. not a bad read. Anyway, I wasn't expecting, nor intending, you to take my word for anything. Sooner or later you will likely figure out some of these things for yourself. In the interim, enjoy your rifles.
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  #164  
Old 05-15-2018, 07:59 AM
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And just to keep the good stuff from sticking to the bottom of the pot...

this could should be posted again from the wikipedia source...

"Military use[edit]
In October 2017, U.S. Special Operations Command tested the performance of 7.62 NATO, .260 Remington, and 6.5 Creedmoor cartridges out of SR-25, M110A1, and Mk 20 sniper rifles. SOCOM determined that 6.5 Creedmoor performed the best, doubling hit probability at 1,000 meters, increasing effective range by nearly half, reducing wind drift by a third and having less recoil than 7.62 NATO rounds."

Would love to see that test redone with the 6.5 Grendel vs the .223, i'm guessing the comments would be nearly identical. .223 not legal for big game hunting here but the Grendel is, why choose anything else even for a dedicated predator rig, dial up them hangers, wife and kids go bang some deer too.

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  #165  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
And just to keep the good stuff from sticking to the bottom of the pot...

this could should be posted again from the wikipedia source...

"Military use[edit]
In October 2017, U.S. Special Operations Command tested the performance of 7.62 NATO, .260 Remington, and 6.5 Creedmoor cartridges out of SR-25, M110A1, and Mk 20 sniper rifles. SOCOM determined that 6.5 Creedmoor performed the best, doubling hit probability at 1,000 meters, increasing effective range by nearly half, reducing wind drift by a third and having less recoil than 7.62 NATO rounds."

Would love to see that test redone with the 6.5 Grendel vs the .223, i'm guessing the comments would be nearly identical. .223 not legal for big game hunting here but the Grendel is, why choose anything else even for a dedicated predator rig, dial up them hangers, wife and kids go bang some deer too.

Why did you post that?

Do you realize the wide spread rage and disbelief you've unleashed? Doubling the hit probability??? So you're saying I don't need a 338 lapua to gut shoot an antelope, I can just shoot it in the lungs with a 6.5 Creedmoor and be done?


Huh...... what a concept.
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  #166  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:26 AM
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Anybody wanna buy a bunch of many times fired Lapua 308 brass ??
Cat
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  #167  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:34 AM
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lmfao
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  #168  
Old 05-15-2018, 11:01 AM
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My 270 is starting to feel inadequate.
  #169  
Old 05-15-2018, 11:26 AM
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My 270 is starting to feel inadequate.
Your 270??!! Crap ALL my cartridges are apparently are inadequate- except for eh 6.5X54MS but that one is not even in the ballpark !!
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  #170  
Old 05-15-2018, 11:37 AM
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Your 270??!! Crap ALL my cartridges are apparently are inadequate- except for eh 6.5X54MS but that one is not even in the ballpark !!
Cat
If you're not running a 30cal +, 70+ grains of powder and 180+ grains of lead, you best stick to paper and gophers.
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  #171  
Old 05-15-2018, 11:58 AM
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There is no eldx available in 30 caliber under 178gr that is why i choose sst to compare in the first place. Identical bullet design in as close as weight as possible in those calibers. You cant compare a 6.5m to 308 if your not using as close as set of variables as possible. Which bullet has higher bc a eldx 178gr or a 180gr rem corelokt. In 308. You cant compare ballistics of those bullets the eldx fired from same gun at same velocity, in all tests will win. The 308 will push a 143gr bullet faster than a creedmoor by a fair margin. Given same weight of bullet. So if we went closer in BC with same bullet then the 308 ballistics are same or better.
Is it fair to compare a 180gr bullet shot slowly vs a 140gr bullet faster. Who wins are we measuring energy its 308 still. Who wins if the creedmore tried to push a 180 gr bullet really slow and the 308 allowed to fire a 140gr match bullet faster. Taking the rifle/ recoil etc out of the equation is how you compare bullets. The shooter supplies the accuracy. (Wind and drop)The only way to compare hunting “ballistics” is with down range energy at the velocity that the bullets are designed to expand which most manufacturers is 1800fps . Yes the 6.5 will open up larger diameter but so will the 308, and the larger hole allows to bleed out faster. If we are again comparing the same bullet for a fair comparison.

Im not a 600 yard shooter. This is each hunters personal pick they choose a bullet and should know how low they are willing to accept for velocity and energy. If you are ok shooting sub 1000 ftlbs and right on the dieing edge of the velocity required for your bullet to function fill your boots. For a long shot why would you not want more energy and velocity then the bare theoretical minimum that the 308 or creedmoor can provide.

When comparing 308 to 6.5 creedmoor why not just say the creedmoor is just a similar option to a 308. The creedmoor didnt reinvent the 6.5 hunting caliber. If you want a bigger hole shoot a 308. Other options are 7mm08, 257, 270 win, all depends on the size of the caliber you prefer to hunt with.


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You were absolutely right when you stated this, "The only way to compare hunting “ballistics” is with down range energy at the velocity that the bullets are designed to expand which most manufacturers is 1800fps ". You should have realized that the object is to find the 'Optimum" bullet in each cartridge to meet the criteria that you laid out. I pointed out that I have seen Factory 180 grain Win PP Bullets "under the hide on the other side of a moose" and that Factory 130 Win PP bullets from a 270 would pass through at 600 yards. A 308 with a 180 Win would likely not have enough energy, or momentum to, pass through so both other calibers would leave a longer wound channel and the one from the 270 would likely bleed out more as it will bleed out both sides. In any event the moose will be dead if the bullets passed through, or into both lungs.

The 6.5 Creedmore, with the 143 ELDX satisfies the minimum velocity, as it is still traveling at 1836 fps and has 1191 ft.lbs. energy at 600 yards. I estimate that it would make a complete pass through on a moose. The 178 ELDX is a much better choice than the SST as it meets the criteria and actually has better "hunting ballistics than the Creedmore but with more felt recoil as I pointed out. So I guess rather than comparing calibers and cartridges you should compare the terminal ballistics of "Bullets" or available ammunition as the winner will be the bullet with the best ballistics.

There are a lot of people that get hung up on Caliber and cartridge when comparing hunting ballistics. My gun is bigger than yours, or the 300 win mag , STW and 7mmMag are much better long range choices than your lady's gun. Invariably they get their nose out of joint when I show them that their "Mans gun" actually has much the same or inferior hunting ballistics at 600 yards with the ammunition we have chosen. In fact my RCBS Load program has the ballistics for nearly every Factory Round made. I can easily point out at least a dozen factory loads in 7mm Mag, 7mm STW and 300 Win Mag that are similar to, or inferior, to the 6.5 Creedmore with the 143 ELDX Factory load at 600 yards. However they will all kill moose/elk/deer if the shooter is capable of placing a bullet through both lungs.

Instead of all of the hatefull bickering that goes on when discussing cartridges that are different than our "pet" cartridges perhaps we should analize each one for their merits or their faults. Hornady and other manufacturers have done a great job, since the introduction of the 375 Ruger, in bringing out cartridges that fit better in magazines when seated out to the lands and supplying quality ammunition among other things, than most other cartridge designs. For this I applaud their efforts.
  #172  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:06 PM
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If you're not running a 30cal +, 70+ grains of powder and 180+ grains of lead, you best stick to paper and gophers.
Jeepers I haven't run that much powder in anything but my black powder guns since forever!!
Cat
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  #173  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Ya, your right.... it's all gotta be fake.


I personally got in touch with John Barsness, you may have heard of him, he's a gun writer for a few magazines, his entire world kind of revolves around guns and hunting. He was one of the people I got advise from before settling on the Creedmoor. He suggested I make my new custom rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor based on his expirience with the cartridge.

No offense, but I'll take his advise on rifles or cartridges any day over yours. My Neighbor might tell me why my elbow hurts some days but I'll take my doctors advise over my neighbors on that any day.

Who?
Good job on the name drop.
“I personally got in touch with John barness”
So you sent the guy an email Lol good job
He must not like you because this is from a recent article he wrote
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  #174  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:24 PM
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Jeepers I haven't run that much powder in anything but my black powder guns since forever!!
Cat
... you better cut that powder back a bit more and join the minimalist brigade. It seems they're recruiting now.
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  #175  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:35 PM
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Who?
Good job on the name drop.
“I personally got in touch with John barness”
So you sent the guy an email Lol good job
He must not like you because this is from a recent article he wrote
I can send him this link and ask what’s going on here if you like?
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  #176  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:46 PM
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... you better cut that powder back a bit more and join the minimalist brigade. It seems they're recruiting now.
Recruiting?? Heck I'm a senior officer when it comes to the "small case/ bullet light powder charge "regiment!!
Cat
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  #177  
Old 05-15-2018, 01:02 PM
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I can send him this link and ask what’s going on here if you like?
Can you ask him if a 338 win mag is okay for grizzly bear as I'm heading for the Yukon next week?
  #178  
Old 05-15-2018, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by marky_mark View Post
Who?
Good job on the name drop.
“I personally got in touch with John barness”
So you sent the guy an email Lol good job
He must not like you because this is from a recent article he wrote

I'm glad you were able to google search his name correctly at least. Here's a clip of the pm he sent:




You blew any credibility you had claiming it took 4 shots to kill an antelope because it was a Creedmoor..... LOL!

You have the bestest magic gun made, I get it.


What about the part where I told him short action and barrel life were two major requirements? Oh ya, you have no clue. Getting part of the story seems to be your specialty.
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Last edited by Kurt505; 05-15-2018 at 01:12 PM.
  #179  
Old 05-15-2018, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post

Instead of all of the hatefull bickering that goes on when discussing cartridges that are different than our "pet" cartridges perhaps we should analize each one for their merits or their faults. Hornady and other manufacturers have done a great job, since the introduction of the 375 Ruger, in bringing out cartridges that fit better in magazines when seated out to the lands and supplying quality ammunition among other things, than most other cartridge designs. For this I applaud their efforts.
Well said, your whole post.

I think if you start a shopping list, the actual cartridge should be further down the list as well.

The intended use will lead you first to the bullets you want to shoot...if that intended use is both game and long range it narrows things down further as you'll be looking at b.c. AND s.d. and also weight, plus size of big game intended. If you don't reload and would like to do things factory then it narrows down even further...aka hornady lol.

But seriously, once you figure out what you're shooting at and how far you want to shoot it, and how hard you want to hit it, THENNNN you choose the bullets that will best suit (factor in b.c., s.d. weight, design type you prefer etc.), THEN you can start doing the math on how much powder it's going to take to get you there which is the same as figuring out which cartridges best suit all your intended goals. That's how to shop for your next rig imo.

I don't use ft/lbs in my shopping personally. I use min impact velocities for the types of bullets i prefer...more frangible, high b.c. and high s.d. so my maximum distances will be a little further but doesn't matter as i compare the same way across the board. I'm looking at max distance capability for say a deer if needed. I generally prefer amax, ballistic tip type frangibility and 1600 fps min impact for shopping requirements. Everyone will have slightly different requirements here...this is my personal rules to compare and shop.

In those rules a 6.5 grendel 123 gr comes aweful close to running with a .308 win 168 gr with half to 60% less recoil. It'll go 600 yards to my specs just as the 308 load does.

The creedmoor adds 200-250 yards to the grendel, we know it does similar to a 300 win mag rather than comparing to a .308....it blows the .308 out of the water using those rules.

The prc adds another 2-300 yards again over the creedmoor. Choose your needs and figure out how much recoil and muzzle blast etc. you want to live with to do it. If you're only going to shoot to 300 yards on game as so many do...you'd get by with a grendel just fine even though it can still dial a deer up at 600 and make that eld-m do what it needs to do, coyotes beware...dial your azzes up to 800 no prob . Nobody will recommend a 6.5 grendel for much past 400 because of the ft/lbs rules but i just don't suscribe to those. I suscribe to bullets min impact velocities, if your s.d. is high enough for the game chosen you're good to go. Nothing burning as little powder as the grendel has 3rd class game approved s.d.'s so it's maybe not just be a 400 yrd deer gun, elk/moose (no different than anyone who's only used .243's for everything, the grendel should match no prob) too and several elk etc. have fallen in those ranges from little i've seen on net but no matter, math is there to support. The creedmoor is more versatile as it'll do it 200-250 yards further and with a bit higher b.c. and s.d. again (140 gr), it is the choice for the masses and most versatile for most needs from hunting/long range shooting, and the prc does that again, 2-300 further with a bit higher b.c. and s.d. (147 gr).

Some people just like to hit things really hard too, so will choose a prc even though they never will shoot anything past 300 yards. That's ok. I personally wouldn't put up with the recoil and blast unless i wanted to go 1200 yards...then i'd look at the prc. 5-600 grendel no sweat, 6-800 creedmoor no sweat, 1000-1200...prc.
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  #180  
Old 05-15-2018, 01:31 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 3,618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Well said, your whole post.

I think if you start a shopping list, the actual cartridge should be further down the list as well.

The intended use will lead you first to the bullets you want to shoot...if that intended use is both game and long range it narrows things down further as you'll be looking at b.c. AND s.d. and also weight, plus size of big game intended. If you don't reload and would like to do things factory then it narrows down even further...aka hornady lol.

But seriously, once you figure out what you're shooting at and how far you want to shoot it, and how hard you want to hit it, THENNNN you choose the bullets that will best suit (factor in b.c., s.d. weight, design type you prefer etc.), THEN you can start doing the math on how much powder it's going to take to get you there which is the same as figuring out which cartridges best suit all your intended goals. That's how to shop for your next rig imo.

I don't use ft/lbs in my shopping personally. I use min impact velocities for the types of bullets i prefer...more frangible, high b.c. and high s.d. so my maximum distances will be a little further but doesn't matter as i compare the same way across the board. I'm looking at max distance capability for say a deer if needed. I generally prefer amax, ballistic tip type frangibility and 1600 fps min impact for shopping requirements. Everyone will have slightly different requirements here...this is my personal rules to compare and shop.

In those rules a 6.5 grendel 123 gr comes aweful close to running with a .308 win 168 gr with half to 60% less recoil. It'll go 600 yards to my specs just as the 308 load does.

The creedmoor adds 200-250 yards to the grendel, we know it does similar to a 300 win mag rather than comparing to a .308....it blows the .308 out of the water using those rules.

The prc adds another 2-300 yards again over the creedmoor. Choose your needs and figure out how much recoil and muzzle blast etc. you want to live with to do it. If you're only going to shoot to 300 yards on game as so many do...you'd get by with a grendel just fine even though it can still dial a deer up at 600 and make that eld-m do what it needs to do, coyotes beware...dial your azzes up to 800 no prob . Nobody will recommend a 6.5 grendel for much past 400 because of the ft/lbs rules but i just don't suscribe to those. I suscribe to bullets min impact velocities, if your s.d. is high enough for the game chosen you're good to go. Nothing burning as little powder as the grendel has 3rd class game approved s.d.'s so it's maybe not just be a 400 yrd deer gun, elk/moose (no different than anyone who's only used .243's for everything, the grendel should match no prob) too and several elk etc. have fallen in those ranges from little i've seen on net but no matter, math is there to support. The creedmoor is more versatile as it'll do it 200-250 yards further and with a bit higher b.c. and s.d. again (140 gr), it is the choice for the masses and most versatile for most needs from hunting/long range shooting, and the prc does that again, 2-300 further with a bit higher b.c. and s.d. (147 gr).

Some people just like to hit things really hard too, so will choose a prc even though they never will shoot anything past 300 yards. That's ok. I personally wouldn't put up with the recoil and blast unless i wanted to go 1200 yards...then i'd look at the prc. 5-600 grendel no sweat, 6-800 creedmoor no sweat, 1000-1200...prc.
.
WoW ! You really have things figured out.

If you find time, try some of this stuff in the real world and let us know how it goes.
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