Pistols on private land?

[Elkster]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Please provide the CC section that says it's illegal.

I'm betting you can't because no such law exists to my knowledge?





Exactly,and this is the argument that is being made by said lawyer.

Your ATT authorizes you to transport your restricted firearm,usually from your home address....and this is the important part.

If you live on rural property,the entire property may well be(but not always)identified as a numbered address,essentially,the entire property shares the same address as your actual house...ie, 123 Range Rd 52 etc etc.

If you can legally discharge a non-restricted rifle on your home property,ie;hunting,pest control,target practice etc....there is actually no law and no reason why you theoretically cannot discharge a restricted firearm there as well.

You haven't violated any conditions of your ATT.....technically,you are still at home and have not actually transported the restricted firearm anywhere.

Please cite what LAW has been broken if you disagree?



Note,I am not a lawyer,nor do I play one on TV.....test and challenge at your own risk and peril.

That is what I was asking.


Elkster

[Dewey Cox]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Please provide the CC section that says it's illegal.

I'm betting you can't because no such law exists to my knowledge?





Exactly,and this is the argument that is being made by said lawyer.

Your ATT authorizes you to transport your restricted firearm,usually from your home address....and this is the important part.

If you live on rural property,the entire property may well be(but not always)identified as a numbered address,essentially,the entire property shares the same address as your actual house...ie, 123 Range Rd 52 etc etc.

If you can legally discharge a non-restricted rifle on your home property,ie;hunting,pest control,target practice etc....there is actually no law and no reason why you theoretically cannot discharge a restricted firearm there as well.

You haven't violated any conditions of your ATT.....technically,you are still at home and have not actually transported the restricted firearm anywhere.

Please cite what LAW has been broken if you disagree?



Note,I am not a lawyer,nor do I play one on TV.....test and challenge at your own risk and peril.

That's interesting.
Do you have any more info about this lawyer, or his case? That would be an intriguing case to follow.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by bat119

I was always told you can't fire a restricted on private land because of the storage laws. A restricted at your place of residence is considered in storage and must be kept unloaded at all times.

Storage of Restricted Firearms
6*An individual may store a restricted firearm only if
(a)*it is unloaded;
(b)*it is
(i)*rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device and stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into, or
(ii)*stored in a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked; and
(c)*it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in
(i)*a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into, or
(ii)*a vault, safe or room that has been specifically constructed or modified for the secure storage of restricted firearms and that is kept securely locked.

We are not talking about storage here. You can take your handgun out of storage and walk around your property with it if you so desire. The purpose of that is up to the individual. You can put it on your picnic table outside your home and disassemble it, clean it.........

When they are in storage all of your points are correct. When they are not in storage and under your control that is another thing.

[ctd]

Target Shooting Practice and Competition

To be authorized to have restricted firearms for target shooting purposes, an individual must provide proof that he or she practices or competes at an approved shooting club or range. For more information about approved shooting clubs and ranges, contact the appropriate provincial or territorial CFO by calling 1-800-731-4000.

Taken from the RCMP page. About sums up shooting on your own land with restricted firearms.

[bat119]

Originally Posted by CNP

We are not talking about storage here. You can take your handgun out of storage and walk around your property with it if you so desire. The purpose of that is up to the individual. You can put it on your picnic table outside your home and disassemble it, clean it.........

When they are in storage all of your points are correct. When they are not in storage and under your control that is another thing.

You can do everything you want with your restricted at home except load it

[357Maximum]

My ATT gives me permission to shoot restricted weapons at approved ranges in Saskatchewan & Alberta.
Based on that if I had rural property. With an Approved range. I could Legally discharge a restricted firearm.

357

[cody j]

Even with an ATC you can't shoot at home unless a bear is trying to eat you

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by ctd

Target Shooting Practice and Competition

To be authorized to have restricted firearms for target shooting purposes, an individual must provide proof that he or she practices or competes at an approved shooting club or range. For more information about approved shooting clubs and ranges, contact the appropriate provincial or territorial CFO by calling 1-800-731-4000.

Taken from the RCMP page. About sums up shooting on your own land with restricted firearms.

A)regulations are not laws

B)RCMP does not make the laws,although they do have a disturbingly frequent habit of overreaching their authority in interpreting and dictating them.

C)That information is incorrect,in Alberta at least,and NOT the law in any province.Issue and conditions of ATT is at the discretion of provincial CFO.
In Alberta,the CFO does not demand proof of range membership and ATT is valid for travel to any range in the province.As posted by 357Max,it "was" issued in the past for AB,SK,and BC as well if I'm not mistaken?Thats no longer the case but it is valid Alberta-wide.
Other provinces,Ontario for example,the CFO wants a range membership prior to issuing ATT.....(possibly even before issuing an RPAL but I'm not certain on that?)...again,overreaching his authority with arbitrary rules.

[Little red riding hood]

You can get a licence to carry if it's required for you to conduct business, but it's not an easy matter, but it is possible, I know a guy who works in the oilfield who has it, he has a lockbox in his truck where he keeps a 357 mag that he takes to work, when he goes out to the remote well sites he puts it in a holster and goes to work, the guy who licensed him was a good friend of mine who passed away from liver cancer 4 years ago, he also did the restricted course for myself and my friends too.

[bobtodrick]

The lawyer in question is basing his theory on the basis of where your ATT allows you to transport your firearm...and that if you never leave your property you should be able to fire it.
He however completely ignores the fact that you can only discharge a restricted firearm at a CFO approved range.
So that's it...unless your property has been certified by the CFO it's illegal to discharge your restricted firearm.
Pretty cut and dried in my opinion.

[ctd]

Originally Posted by West O'5

A)regulations are not laws

B)RCMP does not make the laws,although they do have a disturbingly frequent habit of overreaching their authority in interpreting and dictating them.

C)That information is incorrect,in Alberta at least,and NOT the law in any province.Issue and conditions of ATT is at the discretion of provincial CFO.
In Alberta,the CFO does not demand proof of range membership and ATT is valid for travel to any range in the province.As posted by 357Max,it "was" issued in the past for AB,SK,and BC as well if I'm not mistaken?Thats no longer the case but it is valid Alberta-wide.
Other provinces,Ontario for example,the CFO wants a range membership prior to issuing ATT.....(possibly even before issuing an RPAL but I'm not certain on that?)...again,overreaching his authority with arbitrary rules.

Actually I was required to provide proof of Range Membership to attain my ATT in Alberta.

[couleefolk]

Years ago I was reading somewhere that it is against the law to discharge a restricted on private property, even for the RCMP group that was using a members private land. If it is true or not, I do not know. I would like to know if an officer has ever been convicted for recreational shooting of a restricted on private property, which I highly doubt. I know someone that regularly takes his restricteds out to the farm, and the only way he would get caught may be if he was in an accident and his case was thrown from the vehicle. There is a lot of fear mongering going on. I would bet that you have a better chance at getting knifed than caught taking your restricteds out to the farm.

[ctd]

Target practice or competition

(1.1) In the case of an authorization to transport issued for a reason referred to in paragraph (1)(a) within the province where the holder of the authorization resides, the specified places must include all shooting clubs and shooting ranges that are approved under section 29 and that are located in that province.

Taken directly from the Firearms Act.

I would find it hard to prove your innocence when going against the approved list of ranges to transport your firearms to.
Your property would more then likely not be approved by the CFO, but maybe you did get it approved.

While the law does not specifically state you cannot shoot your Restricted firearm on your property, I doubt a Judge would side with your case if your back yard was not an approved range under section 29.

It would be up to the letter of section 29 and how interpretive the Judge would be that day. You would also open yourself up to a few other charges of found guilty.
I may not agree with the laws or the way they are written. But I do think the CFO can allow more freedom with in our Province as to firearms use. Thus lead the way in Canada for Firearm Reform.

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

That's interesting.
Do you have any more info about this lawyer, or his case? That would be an intriguing case to follow.

I don't recall his name,but there's been discussion of the topic on gunnutz on several occasions and more recently CCFR FB page.
The basis of the argument is that there is no law that specifically prohibits you from shooting at home nor absolutely anywhere other then an approved range.One might have an ATC or Wildnerness carry permit for example,in which case you would obviously be authorized to discharge restricted firearms at places other then an approved range.

Yes,there are laws that define how and where you may transport your handguns,normally to an approved raneg,but those specific laws deal with the transport of restricted,not the discharge of same.It is merely assumed and not specified in C-68 that this is the only place where one might discharge said handgun legally.
If an act is not prohibited by law,then it is not illegal.In a free society,we do not require legislative permission to perform an action,rather,we prohibit specific acts and deem them illegal.Yes,it is illegal to TRANSPORT your restricted to the bush or gravel pit or even to your brother's farm next door to your farm where one might normally and legally discharge non-restricted firearms.
Again.....if you haven't left your property AND therefore the home address that your RPAL and restricted firearms are registered to,you haven't broken any laws nor violated the terms of your ATT because technically you haven't transported your restricted firearm anywhere when you are still at home.If there are no specific municipal/county bylaws or provincial laws prohibiting discharge,then you haven't broken any laws.
If you disagree,please feel free to cite the section of Criminal Code that's been violated and/or specific legislation in C-68 that either clearly prohibits the act or specifically defines and limits where a restricted firearm may be discharged.

[ctd]

Handling of Firearms
15 An individual may load a firearm or handle a loaded firearm only in a place where the firearm may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

[ctd]

Handling of Firearms
15 An individual may load a firearm or handle a loaded firearm only in a place where the firearm may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

http://criminalnotebook.ca/index.php...Dwelling_House

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Newview01

I am aware of that. He got his answer. It is obvious that I am merely making a mockery of our firearms laws.

Making a mockery of our firearms laws...already done by the ones who wrote it

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by ctd

Handling of Firearms
15 An individual may load a firearm or handle a loaded firearm only in a place where the firearm may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

http://criminalnotebook.ca/index.php...Dwelling_House

Yes....and in Alberta and at least one other province that I'm aware of you can legally discharge a firearm from your back porch provided it's safe to do so and in accordance with any other relevant laws, ie;you are not in violation of any minimum discharge distance regs pertaining to dwellings other then your own etc.

[darren32]

Personally, I am not going to be the one to test the lawyers theory

Recently had the RCMP come to our private land because the neighbors were complaining about the shooting. The only thing he cared about (other than safety) was that we were not shooting restricted firearms there. He said we were shooting in a safe manor, have a nice day and he would let the people that complained know they live in the country.

My point is (legal loophole or not) had I been shooting restricted I would have been charged, lost my guns and have had to go to court.

[ctd]

I would always err on the side of caution, I would also not be taking legal advice from a person online unless they are a lawyer. I would take words of caution from online.

I would look up the definition of Dwelling,


If you want the real answer email the CFO and ask for the specific link to either for or agaisnt.

Here is another part of the law that may apply if you can shoot a Restricted from your property. I cant but help myself looking this stuff up.

Words of caution, if one pushes to hard they may restrict even further.


Transporting and using prohibited firearms or restricted firearms

19 (1) An individual who holds a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms or restricted firearms may be authorized to transport a particular prohibited firearm or restricted firearm between two or more specified places for any good and sufficient reason, including, without restricting the generality of the foregoing,

(a) for use in target practice, or a target shooting competition, under specified conditions or under the auspices of a shooting club or shooting range that is approved under section 29;

(a.1) to provide instructions in the use of firearms as part of a restricted firearms safety course that is approved by the federal Minister; or

(b) if the individual

[Wiz]

Originally Posted by TargetRick

No, it's not an invitation to duel! It's a question about usage.

I'm pretty sure the answer is "No", but thought I'd ask: can I shoot pistols on private land I own?

I am a member of a range, but thought it would be nice - if possible - to take my Enfield .38 S&W and Swiss 7.5 revolver to shoot outdoors. Again, if possible.

Buy an antique revolver

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by West O'5

I don't recall his name,but there's been discussion of the topic on gunnutz on several occasions and more recently CCFR FB page.
The basis of the argument is that there is no law that specifically prohibits you from shooting at home nor absolutely anywhere other then an approved range.One might have an ATC or Wildnerness carry permit for example,in which case you would obviously be authorized to discharge restricted firearms at places other then an approved range.

Yes,there are laws that define how and where you may transport your handguns,normally to an approved raneg,but those specific laws deal with the transport of restricted,not the discharge of same.It is merely assumed and not specified in C-68 that this is the only place where one might discharge said handgun legally.
If an act is not prohibited by law,then it is not illegal.In a free society,we do not require legislative permission to perform an action,rather,we prohibit specific acts and deem them illegal.Yes,it is illegal to TRANSPORT your restricted to the bush or gravel pit or even to your brother's farm next door to your farm where one might normally and legally discharge non-restricted firearms.
Again.....if you haven't left your property AND therefore the home address that your RPAL and restricted firearms are registered to,you haven't broken any laws nor violated the terms of your ATT because technically you haven't transported your restricted firearm anywhere when you are still at home.If there are no specific municipal/county bylaws or provincial laws prohibiting discharge,then you haven't broken any laws.
If you disagree,please feel free to cite the section of Criminal Code that's been violated and/or specific legislation in C-68 that either clearly prohibits the act or specifically defines and limits where a restricted firearm may be discharged.

Taken from the firearms Act

Transporting and using prohibited firearms or restricted firearms

19 (1) An individual who holds a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms or restricted firearms may be authorized to transport a particular prohibited firearm or restricted firearm between two or more specified places for any good and sufficient reason, including, without restricting the generality of the foregoing,

(a) for use in target practice, or a target shooting competition, under specified conditions or under the auspices of a shooting club or shooting range that is approved under section 29;

(a.1) to provide instructions in the use of firearms as part of a restricted firearms safety course that is approved by the federal Minister; or

(b) if the individual

(i) changes residence,

(ii) wishes to transport the firearm to a peace officer, firearms officer or chief firearms officer for registration or disposal in accordance with this Act or Part III of the Criminal Code,

(iii) wishes to transport the firearm for repair, storage, sale, exportation or appraisal, or

(iv) wishes to transport the firearm to a gun show.


Basically you can use Restricted/prohibited firearms for 2 purposes

1. Shooting at an approved CFO range

2. For teaching purposes

The other times you can transport under your ATT are listed below and deal with change of address, sale, maintenance and surrendering for destruction.

And Sec 86(2) of the Criminal Code is the charge section for breaches of Regulations made under the Firearms Act. So yes, Regulations are enforceable and must be adhered to like any other legislated law.

Regulations do not list what is illegal like Criminal Code laws. Look at the storage and transport regulations. No where does it state that it is illegal to store your firearm loaded. Alternatively it tells you that it must be unloaded. So the regulations will not state that shooting a restricted firearm on your property is illegal, alternatively it will only tell you where it is legal to discharge and in this case it is a CFO approved range. So if it is not listed then it is not legal, that is how regulations work.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Taken from the firearms Act

Transporting and using prohibited firearms or restricted firearms

19 (1) An individual who holds a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms or restricted firearms may be authorized to transport a particular prohibited firearm or restricted firearm between two or more specified places for any good and sufficient reason, including, without restricting the generality of the foregoing,

(a) for use in target practice, or a target shooting competition, under specified conditions or under the auspices of a shooting club or shooting range that is approved under section 29;

(a.1) to provide instructions in the use of firearms as part of a restricted firearms safety course that is approved by the federal Minister; or

(b) if the individual

(i) changes residence,

(ii) wishes to transport the firearm to a peace officer, firearms officer or chief firearms officer for registration or disposal in accordance with this Act or Part III of the Criminal Code,

(iii) wishes to transport the firearm for repair, storage, sale, exportation or appraisal, or

(iv) wishes to transport the firearm to a gun show.


Basically you can use Restricted/prohibited firearms for 2 purposes

1. Shooting at an approved CFO range

2. For teaching purposes

The other times you can transport under your ATT are listed below and deal with change of address, sale, maintenance and surrendering for destruction.

And Sec 86(2) of the Criminal Code is the charge section for breaches of Regulations made under the Firearms Act. So yes, Regulations are enforceable and must be adhered to like any other legislated law.

Does the criminal code specifically criminalize the safe discharge of one's own restricted firearm on one's own property? My understanding is that this must be specifically mentioned in order for it to be illegal.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Does the criminal code specifically criminalize the safe discharge of one's own restricted firearm on one's own property? My understanding is that this must be specifically mentioned in order for it to be illegal.

That's where your argument lies. Since it is not a CFO approved range then the law makers have pre-determined that the "safe" discharge of a restricted firearm can not occur. Therefore discharging a restricted firearm anywhere but a CFO approved range is Careless Use of a Firearm under Sec 86(1) C.C.

[bobtodrick]

a) for use in target practice, or a target shooting competition, under specified conditions or under the auspices of a shooting club or shooting range that is approved under section 29;

I don't get why people seem to keep 'missing' this part...it specifically states 'specifed conditions' which means CFO approved.

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

That's where your argument lies. Since it is not a CFO approved range then the law makers have pre-determined that the "safe" discharge of a restricted firearm can not occur. Therefore discharging a restricted firearm anywhere but a CFO approved range is Careless Use of a Firearm under Sec 86(1) C.C.

19 (1a) defines legal activities for which the firearm may be transported,including use at a CFO approved range.

Again.....if you were to discharge the firearm at your home address to which the firearm is registered,you haven't transported it anywhere,yes?
What law has been broken?Where in the FA is this specifically prohibited?What is the CC charge?

[ghl1]

Here is a layers article
http://www.plourdelaw.com/blog/2015/...-ontario.shtml

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by West O'5

19 (1a) defines legal activities for which the firearm may be transported,including use at a CFO approved range.

Again.....if you were to discharge the firearm at your home address to which the firearm is registered,you haven't transported it anywhere,yes?
What law has been broken?Where in the FA is this specifically prohibited?What is the CC charge?

Re-read my previous responses

Basically you can use Restricted/prohibited firearms for 2 purposes

1. Shooting at an approved CFO range

2. For teaching purposes

The other times you can transport under your ATT are listed below and deal with change of address, sale, maintenance and surrendering for destruction.

And Sec 86(2) of the Criminal Code is the charge section for breaches of Regulations made under the Firearms Act. So yes, Regulations are enforceable and must be adhered to like any other legislated law.

Regulations do not list what is illegal like Criminal Code laws. Look at the storage and transport regulations. No where does it state that it is illegal to store your firearm loaded. Alternatively it tells you that it must be unloaded. So the regulations will not state that shooting a restricted firearm on your property is illegal, alternatively it will only tell you where it is legal to discharge and in this case it is a CFO approved range. So if it is not listed then it is not legal, that is how regulations work.

and

That's where your argument lies. Since it is not a CFO approved range then the law makers have pre-determined that the "safe" discharge of a restricted firearm can not occur. Therefore discharging a restricted firearm anywhere but a CFO approved range is Careless Use of a Firearm under Sec 86(1) C.C.

If this does not answer your question then I am afraid you are not willing to accept any answer other than one agreeing with your pre-determined notion.

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Re-read my previous responses

Basically you can use Restricted/prohibited firearms for 2 purposes

1. Shooting at an approved CFO range

2. For teaching purposes

The other times you can transport under your ATT are listed below and deal with change of address, sale, maintenance and surrendering for destruction.

And Sec 86(2) of the Criminal Code is the charge section for breaches of Regulations made under the Firearms Act. So yes, Regulations are enforceable and must be adhered to like any other legislated law.

Regulations do not list what is illegal like Criminal Code laws. Look at the storage and transport regulations. No where does it state that it is illegal to store your firearm loaded. Alternatively it tells you that it must be unloaded. So the regulations will not state that shooting a restricted firearm on your property is illegal, alternatively it will only tell you where it is legal to discharge and in this case it is a CFO approved range. So if it is not listed then it is not legal, that is how regulations work.

and

That's where your argument lies. Since it is not a CFO approved range then the law makers have pre-determined that the "safe" discharge of a restricted firearm can not occur. Therefore discharging a restricted firearm anywhere but a CFO approved range is Careless Use of a Firearm under Sec 86(1) C.C.

If this does not answer your question then I am afraid you are not willing to accept any answer other than one agreeing with your pre-determined notion.

Again....I will beg to differ.Nowhere in sec 19 does it say that you can only use a restricted firearm for 2 purposes nor that any other use is unlawful,rather it gives 2 examples of legal purposes to transport a restricted firearm.

2) if it's safe and legal to shoot a deer with a .338 Lapua from your back deck,how could one possibly conclude that's it unsafe and/or careless to shoot tin cans from that same deck with a pistol cartridge?

3)"If it's not listed,it's not legal,that's how regulations work"/qu
Nooooo.....if it's not prohibited by legislation,then it's not illegal,that's how laws work.We don't need permission from government for every conceivable activity in life.

4)and again I ask,if I am shooting my pistol in my rural backyard and RCMP show up to follow up a noise complaint,what is the CC charge?

5)I don't have a "predetermined notion",I am asking anybody to provide specific section of CC or FA that discharging a restricted weapon at its registered address is in contravention of?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by ctd

Target practice or competition

(1.1) In the case of an authorization to transport issued for a reason referred to in paragraph (1)(a) within the province where the holder of the authorization resides, the specified places must include all shooting clubs and shooting ranges that are approved under section 29 and that are located in that province.

Taken directly from the Firearms Act.

I would find it hard to prove your innocence when going against the approved list of ranges to transport your firearms to.
Your property would more then likely not be approved by the CFO, but maybe you did get it approved.

While the law does not specifically state you cannot shoot your Restricted firearm on your property, I doubt a Judge would side with your case if your back yard was not an approved range under section 29.

It would be up to the letter of section 29 and how interpretive the Judge would be that day. You would also open yourself up to a few other charges of found guilty.
I may not agree with the laws or the way they are written. But I do think the CFO can allow more freedom with in our Province as to firearms use. Thus lead the way in Canada for Firearm Reform.

X2 ... I believe Sec 29 about covers it. Unless you have an approved range on you're property, it wouldn't push it.
Not sure, but I believe there is some reference regarding transportation from your residence .. not address, which probably doesn't include your back fourty.