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  #91  
Old 03-10-2017, 10:45 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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A 7mm 195gr bullet with a 0.755 BC, or a 180gr bullet with 0.796 BC, is tough for any .30 cal bullet to whoop. Heck, even a lowly 147gr 6.5 bullet with a 0.697 BC ain't far behind the biggest, heaviest .30 cal bullets, 800 yard shots included...

If any of those bullets arrive in the vitals with enough velocity to initiate proper expansion, it's game over for any animal in NA.
My point exactly. The BC has a direct impact on the distance a bullet can perform as intended. A 150gr expanding as intended will do more damage and have more knock down ability than a 200gr bullet simply poking a hole.
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  #92  
Old 03-10-2017, 10:49 AM
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The deer are getting tougher and the shooters are getting softer? Surely you guys can handle the recoil of a 308.

As to the original post; Is the advancement of bullet design making the 30 caliber obsolete as far as hunting is concerned? I would say the exact opposite is true.

30 or 40 years ago there was 180 grain SP or PSP to choose from in 30-06 at the vast majority of stores. On the odd occasion a person might see some 150 Sabre Tips. The quality control was so poor you could feel a difference in recoil on several rounds per box. Everyone thought that one day they would pick up a custom "whiz bang" with pin point accuracy.

Today there is dozens of factory loads to choose from in numerous weights and construction. The QC and accuracy is generally as good as hand loads. I use to pine over a custom 280 but with modern loads my 06 will do everything a 280 can do and more.
Advancements have been made in every caliber, but the smaller calibers have had greater industry focus when it comes to technological advantage, and if talking about the killing effectiveness on NA game animals, those 6mm's, 6.5's, and 7's are perfectly adequate for animals that a guy wouldn't think of trying to shoot with such small calibers 60 years ago. Going moose hunting with a .243 in the 60's was frowned upon. Grizzly or Brown bear hunting with modern bullets is much more plausible today than it was back then.

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As far as hunting is concerned, the vast majority of people shoot less than a box a year, shoot at less than 200 yards, couldn't hit a mini van at 300+, choose a rifle over the cartridge, shoot whatever their father/grandfather/uncle shot and have never heard of or handled a 6.5 Creedmoor.

People forget that tradition, sales and marketing trump facts and ballistics every time. We are basically a part (and a very small part) of the US market. I would bet the number of 30-06/308 sold in the US each year would out sell the entire Canadian market combined. That's what they want, and that is what we are going to find on our store shelves. They just kill stuff dead, and that is all most are concerned about.
This is all true. But Americans are also a trendy, marketing-susceptible bunch. Which is why we're seeing a lot more rifles chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor appear on shelves within a very short time. It's driven by what the guys in the US want, and are told "they want".
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  #93  
Old 03-10-2017, 11:04 AM
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I'm not sure about the 30-06 being able to do all the 280 can do and more, but if it is more it would come at the expense of added recoil, and if you are going to add more recoil I would rather be shooting a 7mm magnum and see a real bump in performance above the 280 compared to what you'll get with a 30-06 with the same recoil as the 7mm mag.
Bigger bore allows faster powders which equal shorter barrels. You talk about calibers like they all shoot equal out of the same gun. A 308 win can be full powder burn in amuch shorter barrel than a 243 win or 7mm-08 or a 280 rem. Theres internal ballistics before external and terminal happen. Unless you do all your 800m moose hunting from a benchrest Laboratory. An 18 inch 308 win carbine will be much more enjoyable to carry in the bush than your 24 inch 6.5 gun.

Its all opinion and intended use. Theres a better caliber than others depending on what you are going to do with it. We aren't all long range hunters. Some of us still shoot at 100m deer.
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  #94  
Old 03-10-2017, 11:09 AM
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Bigger bore allows faster powders which equal shorter barrels. You talk about calibers like they all shoot equal out of the same gun. A 308 win can be full powder burn in amuch shorter barrel than a 243 win or 7mm-08 or a 280 rem. Theres internal ballistics before external and terminal happen. Unless you do all your 800m moose hunting from a benchrest Laboratory. An 18 inch 308 win carbine will be much more enjoyable to carry in the bush than your 24 inch 6.5 gun.

Its all opinion and intended use. Theres a better caliber than others depending on what you are going to do with it. We aren't all long range hunters. Some of us still shoot at 100m deer.
25 fps per inch of barrel doesn't knock a 6.5 out of the running. A 20" 6.5 Creedmoor still whoops on a 20" .308 when it comes to external ballistics.

True, I'd venture to say that most all of us still shoot at 100m deer. But some are prepared to shoot deer far beyond that, as well, should the opportunity and terrain dictate.
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  #95  
Old 03-10-2017, 11:17 AM
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Bigger bore allows faster powders which equal shorter barrels. You talk about calibers like they all shoot equal out of the same gun. A 308 win can be full powder burn in amuch shorter barrel than a 243 win or 7mm-08 or a 280 rem. Theres internal ballistics before external and terminal happen. Unless you do all your 800m moose hunting from a benchrest Laboratory. An 18 inch 308 win carbine will be much more enjoyable to carry in the bush than your 24 inch 6.5 gun.

Its all opinion and intended use. Theres a better caliber than others depending on what you are going to do with it. We aren't all long range hunters. Some of us still shoot at 100m deer.

Not if my 308 is a m70 and my 6.5 is a nula

Besides, they are coming out with new powders to help with that exact scenario. I knew I strike a nerve with a lot of guys when I said that the 30 CAL will be obsolete it was part of the way of me getting people involved in this topic. I still stand behind it though. If my shots were restricted to 200 yards and less I would be even more inclined to stay away from the 30 calibers.
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  #96  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:01 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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I think it's fair to say that when it comes to bullets, the manner in which it is delivered means everything to how it kills. If I take a handful of bullets and throw them at a moose, the speed at which they impact that moose versus being fired from a rifle is quite different, and I think we'd both agree that those bullets I throw won't kill very well. So "simply aid[ing] with delivery" directly impacts killing effectiveness in a significant way.

A bullet that has a high BC will retain more if its velocity, and impact the animal going faster than a bullet with a lower BC, assuming equal muzzle velocity.
True enough, but the bullet with the higher BC will also have the higher SD. Sectional density and form factor are major components of the formula used to determine BC. Check it out.

Let's take, for example, the new Hornady 7mm 180gr ELD-M (a simple C&C, similar to the Nosler BT, SST, etc), with it's 0.796 G1 BC, started at 2700 fps, and see how it compares to a .308" 180gr RN and a 180gr Horn SP started at the same velocity. In this instance the 7mm wins as it has the higher SD and consequently the higher BC. At 300 meters in the atmospheric conditions I usually shoot at, the 7mm 180 ELD impacts the animals at 2376 fps- more than fast enough to expand properly and hit with a wallop. The .308 180gr RN, with a G1 BC of 0.241, impacts at 300 meters with 1717 fps, assuming all else is equal. Yes it would, remembering that the SST bullet has a much better form factor than a .308 RN, so not really a fair comparison. That is still likely fast enough to expand properly, but expansion wouldn't be nearly as violent as if it impacted 660 fps faster. The 180gr Horn SP, BC 0.425, impacts 300 meters with 2111 fps. If we go a little further out to 450 meters, the 7mm 180 ELD hits at 2218 fps, the .308" 180RN hits at 1327 fps, and the .308" 180gr SP arrives with 1841 fps of velocity. Form Factor at work again. Try those numbers with the same bullet design. Those differences are starting to become significant with regards to expansion characteristics and the resultant tissue damage done by each of the bullets. So BC DOES affect the damage a bullet does, and its killing ability. Certainly it does. At the same impact velocity and the same POI and identical bullet construction ,the bullet with the higher BC/SD wins every time.

When it comes to killing effectiveness, bullet construction has a much greater impact than SD. To keep things on an even keel use the same bullet construction This has been established by industry experts, and is borne out in my own experience as a hunter and guide, as well. In the hundreds of BG animals I've seen die, the trend that I've noticed is that a lighter bullet of controlled expansion, whether a Nosler PT, Barnes TTSX, etc, penetrates deeper and more reliably than a heavier C&C. Your experience differs from most others, industry experts included. With the exception of solids, all hunting bullets are designed for controlled expansion in one form or another. Again, with bullets of the same weight and design, the one with the higher SD wins. There are many C&C bullets that will equal or exceed the performance of a mono in an identical scenario... if that is what you are referring to. Now that doesn't necessarily means than a controlled-expansion bullet kills more effectively than other designs like a Berger VLD or other C&C design.

These days too much emphasis is placed on ultimate penetration, to the point of people convincing themselves that they have to use bullets and loads that are capable of penetrating the entire chest cavity two or three times over, of whatever animal they're shooting. The more vital tissue a bullet destroys, the more effective it will be, over the long run, in killing.
I think that good bullet penetration is a better option than splash,disintegration or blowback by a fair margin. Before you can damage the vitals you have to reach them, regardless of bullet placement.The Berger VLD, while penetration can't compare to bullets like the Barnes TTSX, typically kills quicker than almost any other bullet design, with solid non-CNS chest hits. That is because it penetrates without expansion for a few inches, and then comes unglued like a grenade in the chest. Exit wounds are rare, and destruction of vitals is usually extensive. Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with SD, as Berger VLD bullets function this way in general, whether using one of medium-weight-for-caliber, or heavy. I think many of us have used VLD's at one time or another. It's unique but very capable bullet within a narrow band of circumstances. I personally wouldn't run it against a Partition under any circumstance.

All that doesn't mean that the Berger VLD is the ideal bullet. When choosing penetration vs. rapid expansion qualities in a bullet, a guy needs to determine how much penetration is "enough" for the animals and types of shots that he usually takes, or is willing to take. For the hunter unwilling to take stem-to-stern shots, and is selective about taking broadside or slightly quartering shots, then he doesn't need to use a bullet that falls toward the extreme penetration end of the spectrum. Shot placement is a personal thing and bad bullet placement happens. In these cases a larger, stouter bullet has a better chance of CYA than a lighter one, as I see it anyway.

At the end of the day, given equally constructed bullets of equal caliber started at equal velocity, a higher starting SD does typically result in greater penetration, but that doesn't mean that it kills any better than other bullets of lesser SD.
We can agree on that. Dead is dead.
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  #97  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:31 PM
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I dunno; I've gotten rid of my 6.5 and .375 in favour of .308 caliber rifles - in particular, ones chambered in the good old .30-30 and .30-06.

I don't need to feel special by shooting a rare or unusual chambering, and these 'boring' chamberings have worked for a long time at humanely putting animals on the ground. Any improvements in bullet construction that have benefited the smaller calibers also benefit the .308s, so I see it as a wash.

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  #98  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:35 PM
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I dunno; I've gotten rid of my 6.5 and .375 in favour of .308 caliber rifles - in particular, the good old .30-30 and .30-06.

I don't need to feel special by shooting a rare or unusual chambering, and these 'boring' chamberings have worked for a long time at humanely putting animals on the ground. Any improvements in bullet construction that have benefited the smaller calibers also benefit the .308s, so I see it as a wash.
Was your 6.5 and 375 not working?
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  #99  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:51 PM
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Was your 6.5 and 375 not working?
Naw, they worked great, as any legal chambering will these days. Perhaps the main reason I got out of them was that my interests changed from bolt guns to levers and single shots - driven mainly by my change to bowhunting as my main focus. Hunting with a rifle now isn't anywhere near fun as it used to be for me.

In fact, the 6.5 (Swede) was arguably the perfect North American hunting rifle: a lefty Sako 85, in stunning walnut and wearing a Leupold VX-3 2.5-8x36. I try to avoid thinking about it...
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  #100  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:24 PM
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Naw, they worked great, as any legal chambering will these days. Perhaps the main reason I got out of them was that my interests changed from bolt guns to levers and single shots - driven mainly by my change to bowhunting as my main focus. Hunting with a rifle now isn't anywhere near fun as it used to be for me.

In fact, the 6.5 (Swede) was arguably the perfect North American hunting rifle: a lefty Sako 85, in stunning walnut and wearing a Leupold VX-3 2.5-8x36. I try to avoid thinking about it...
6.5 Swede, less recoil than a 30-06 but will do the same job...
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  #101  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:50 PM
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6.5 Swede, less recoil than a 30-06 but will do the same job...
It's great cartridge but if it wont send a 200 grainer how can it do the same job ?? .. recoil notwithstanding.

We should be classifying capable cartridges in terms of ft/lb recoil by the sound of things these days.
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Old 03-10-2017, 01:55 PM
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6.5 Swede, less recoil than a 30-06 but will do the same job...
I have a 6.5x55 myself, and I would have no reservations about using it for elk or moose. The Europeans have killed thousands of moose with this cartridge.
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  #103  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:57 PM
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True enough, but the bullet with the higher BC will also have the higher SD. Sectional density and form factor are major components of the formula used to determine BC. Check it out.
Not necessarily. Higher BC doesn't necessarily mean higher SD. See your comment below. The .308" 180gr RN, SST, and SP all have identical SD figures. The difference between them is in their respective form factors/drag coefficients, leading to vastly different BC values.

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Yes it would, remembering that the SST bullet has a much better form factor than a .308 RN, so not really a fair comparison.

Form Factor at work again. Try those numbers with the same bullet design.
WRT your comments about controlled-expansion bullets versus C&C bullets with a high SD, I'd beg to differ. I think most experienced hunters would agree that a .308" 165gr Partition will routinely penetrate deeper and perform more reliably than a standard 180gr C&C bullet like the Sierra PH or the Hornady SP, despite have a lower SD value. And "controlled expansion" refers to bullets designed to limit expansion, which does not include bullets like the Sierra PH and Speer SP, etc. It usually refers to bonding, a partition, mono construction, etc.

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Again, with bullets of the same weight and design, the one with the higher SD wins.
Again, not necessarily. A 140gr TTSX/PT/AB kills better when fired from a 7-08 than a 175gr bullet of similar construction. When you have controlled expansion ensuring good penetration, tissue damage is increased significantly by higher impact velocity, SD notwithstanding.
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  #104  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:01 PM
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It's great cartridge but if it wont send a 200 grainer how can it do the same job ?? .. recoil notwithstanding.

We should be classifying capable cartridges in terms of ft/lb recoil by the sound of things these days.
Recoil isn't the issue. What we're really discussing is the fact that a 6.5mm or 7mm can kill anything in NA that needs killing, just as well as a .308" bullet.

In your experience, what job involved in hunting BG in Alberta can a 200gr .308" bullet do, that you have found a similarly-constructed 6.5mm 140gr bullet to not be able to do?
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  #105  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:34 PM
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We should be classifying capable cartridges in terms of ft/lb recoil by the sound of things these days.
My whole point is the new bullets require less ft/lb of recoil to deliver the hurt on the right side of the barrel, the proof is on any ballistic chart. I cant for the life of me figure out why someone would think its better to have more recoil? It just doesn't make sense. Maybe its because its the "what worked for my Dad so its got to be the right way to go" way of thinking?
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  #106  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:36 PM
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Not necessarily. Higher BC doesn't necessarily mean higher SD. See your comment below. The .308" 180gr RN, SST, and SP all have identical SD figures. The difference between them is in their respective form factors/drag coefficients, leading to vastly different BC values.
Re-read my previous references regarding form factor





WRT your comments about controlled-expansion bullets versus C&C bullets with a high SD, I'd beg to differ. I think most experienced hunters would agree that a .308" 165gr Partition will routinely penetrate deeper and perform more reliably than a standard 180gr C&C bullet like the Sierra PH or the Hornady SP, despite have a lower SD value. And "controlled expansion" refers to bullets designed to limit expansion, which does not include bullets like the Sierra PH and Speer SP, etc. It usually refers to bonding, a partition, mono construction, etc.

A NP is a premium C&C. Probably one of the best C&C's ever designed.... controlled expansion included. Any bullet with a tapered jacket is a controlled expansion bullet. Do you know of a C&C hunting bullet without one ?

I dunno where you dug all this stuff up, but I think you should dig a wee bit deeper. Seems to me that the term "controlled expansion" was around long before bonding or monos were even thought of.



Again, not necessarily. A 140gr TTSX/PT/AB kills better when fired from a 7-08 than a 175gr bullet of similar construction. When you have controlled expansion ensuring good penetration, tissue damage is increased significantly by higher impact velocity, SD notwithstanding.
Really ? Would that have anything to do with the velocity (lack of ) required out of a 7-08 to properly utilize those heavier C&C's and mono bullets ?
If you want to enlighten others I suggest to get your stuff together a bit more. Convince with facts - not dazzle with BS.
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  #107  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:52 PM
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Really ? Would that have anything to do with the velocity (lack of ) required out of a 7-08 to properly utilize those heavier C&C's and mono bullets ?
If you want to enlighten others I suggest to get your stuff together a bit more. Convince with facts - not dazzle with BS.
LOL, I'd love to have an in-person conversation about "facts". You know a guy feels like he's losing a debate when he has to resort to ad-hominem attacks...

The point in my using the 7-08 as an example, is that there are instances where higher SD does not lead to increased killing ability. There is more to killing effectiveness than simply SD, given equal design and caliber. Velocity plays a major role. There are only two rules of killing effectiveness that really matter when it comes to bullet selection:

1. A bullet needs "enough" penetration. Once you have sufficient SD to penetrate "enough", more won't help.

2. The more tissue damage a bullet does, the quicker it kills. That means expansion and velocity, assuming "enough" penetration as mentioned before.
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  #108  
Old 03-10-2017, 03:26 PM
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LOL, I'd love to have an in-person conversation about "facts". You know a guy feels like he's losing a debate when he has to resort to ad-hominem attacks...

The point in my using the 7-08 as an example, is that there are instances where higher SD does not lead to increased killing ability. There is more to killing effectiveness than simply SD, given equal design and caliber. Velocity plays a major role. There are only two rules of killing effectiveness that really matter when it comes to bullet selection:

1. A bullet needs "enough" penetration. Once you have sufficient SD to penetrate "enough", more won't help.

2. The more tissue damage a bullet does, the quicker it kills. That means expansion and velocity, assuming "enough" penetration as mentioned before.
I agree with your points, and now you likely understand why I dropped out of the discussion.
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Old 03-10-2017, 03:31 PM
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6.5 Swede, less recoil than a 30-06 but will do the same job...
Fortunately for me, I'm pretty recoil insensitive, and I shot my .375 Ruger as accurately as my 6.5 Swede. So recoil isn't really part of my decision calculus - the .30-06's recoil is, for me, perfectly manageable. And the ought six is still killing game after all these years.

My Swede was a beautiful rifle, and sufficient for any N. American game. Would I own and use another? Sure, with total confidence that it would get the job done. Do I have any plans to add one to the safe? No, not at this time.
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Old 03-10-2017, 03:35 PM
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I agree with your points, and now you likely understand why I dropped out of the discussion.
Yessir, and I think I will, too.
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Old 03-10-2017, 03:36 PM
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LOL, I'd love to have an in-person conversation about "facts". You know a guy feels like he's losing a debate when he has to resort to ad-hominem attacks...

The point in my using the 7-08 as an example, is that there are instances where higher SD does not lead to increased killing ability. There is more to killing effectiveness than simply SD, given equal design and caliber. Velocity plays a major role. There are only two rules of killing effectiveness that really matter when it comes to bullet selection:

Perhaps you should check out the constants that contribute to BC. I'm sure you will find that the variable, (namely velocity) input has the least to do with establishing true BC. Actually, BC can be pretty well established (and is) without velocity input. As I suggested in a previous post -"check it out"


1. A bullet needs "enough" penetration. Once you have sufficient SD to penetrate "enough", more won't help.. Pretty ambiguous. What do you want to penetrate ? rib cage.? shoulder ? 3"? 15 "?.. or end to end.
Some like to see an exit in may instances. Killing an animal is not like lawn bowling or curling and distances are seldom fixed. Tell me, how do you determine "enough" penetration - no more.. no less.
.
2. The more tissue damage a bullet does, the quicker it kills. That means expansion and velocity, assuming "enough" penetration as mentioned before.
I'm really enjoying your bullet performance 101 BTW as I'm always open to learning something new. No attack intended.
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Old 03-10-2017, 03:44 PM
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Yessir, and I think I will, too.
When the fish stopped biting, its never as much fun
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Old 03-10-2017, 03:47 PM
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when the fish stopped biting, its never as much fun
never !
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  #114  
Old 03-10-2017, 03:53 PM
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I'm really enjoying your bullet performance 101 BTW as I'm always open to learning something new. No attack intended.
Since you're intent on keeping this civil, I'll respond.

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Perhaps you should check out the constants that contribute to BC. I'm sure you will find that the variable, (namely velocity) input has the least to do with establishing true BC. Actually, BC can be pretty well established (and is) without velocity input. As I suggested in a previous post -"check it out"
Believe me, I'm extremely familiar with ballistic coefficients, their factors, calculations, form factors, drag coefficients, G models, etc. Let me tell you, velocity does not affect a properly modeled ballistic coefficient. Coupled with an accurately modeled BC, velocity certainly affects a bullet's flight characteristics, though. But I'm not sure where you're going with that one, since I'm not talking about external ballistics at all anymore, I'm talking about terminal performance. Velocity matters. An increase in impact velocity correlates to an increase in expansion aggressiveness, and usually results in an increase in tissue damage.

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Pretty ambiguous. What do you want to penetrate ? rib cage.? shoulder ? 3"? 15 "?.. or end to end.
Some like to see an exit in may instances. Killing an animal is not like lawn bowling or curling and distances are seldom fixed. Tell me, how do you determine "enough" penetration - no more.. no less.
I left it ambiguous for a reason. As I said in a previous post, each individual needs to decide what type of animals he's hunting, what types of shots he'll take, and consequently, what type of penetration is required. The penetration requirements of a guy who takes nothing but broadside shots on deer are quite different from a guy that takes end-to-end shots on bull moose. As an example, I've witnessed the 7mm 140gr TTSX penetrate stem-to-stern on bull moose, cow elk, and several deer, leaving exit wounds in all, in addition to other shot angles taken on a variety of animals. For my uses, that is "enough" penetration, and a bullet with a higher SD that theoretically penetrates more won't offer any benefit. Does the 160gr TTSX have a higher SD? Sure. Will it kill better than the 140? No, and in fact it typically results in less impressive killing performance, IME, because it arrives with less impact velocity at the distances I typically witness the use of deep-penetrating bullets like the TTSX.

For my needs, the 140gr TTSX penetrates "enough" and does plenty of damage along the way, so I see no need to use a bullet with a higher SD that may penetrate deeper into the tree on the other side of the moose.
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith View Post
Recoil isn't the issue. What we're really discussing is the fact that a 6.5mm or 7mm can kill anything in NA that needs killing, just as well as a .308" bullet.

In your experience, what job involved in hunting BG in Alberta can a 200gr .308" bullet do, that you have found a similarly-constructed 6.5mm 140gr bullet to not be able to do?
In my experience I use my 6.5 only for Deer and Varmints so I can't give you an example. For sure the 6.5 is a very capable cartridge, but it does have limitations.

If you would like examples of the cartridges I use for all types of bigger game, (.338-06, .35 Whelen ai and 9.3x62 ) I would be happy to explain my reasons and experiences and why I prefer them as opposed to the 6.5. or other similar calibers.
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  #116  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:30 PM
Ossie Ossie is offline
 
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Bigger bullets mean bigger holes. Not an issue on deer and antelope, but when I shoot a black bear I want as big a hole as possible. Even when hit hard bears can crawl off into the bush, and I want as much blood trail as possible....
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  #117  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:38 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ossie View Post
Bigger bullets mean bigger holes. Not an issue on deer and antelope, but when I shoot a black bear I want as big a hole as possible. Even when hit hard bears can crawl off into the bush, and I want as much blood trail as possible....

The only bullet size that determines the size of the hole, is the size of the expanded bullet. A .284" bullet that expands to 2 times it's diameter can make a bigger hole than a .308" bullet that expands to 1-1/2 times it's diameter.
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  #118  
Old 03-10-2017, 10:00 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
The only bullet size that determines the size of the hole, is the size of the expanded bullet. A .284" bullet that expands to 2 times it's diameter can make a bigger hole than a .308" bullet that expands to 1-1/2 times it's diameter.
Are you really serious Elk ? How big would a .358 hole be if it expanded two times ?
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  #119  
Old 03-10-2017, 11:52 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Are you really serious Elk ? How big would a .358 hole be if it expanded two times ?
A long bullet will have long pedals and open up wider, especially at high velocities. So a heavy for caliber bullet, with the right construction, will be long, have a high BC, and be designed to open wide on impact. It will have good penetration and leave a wide wound channel....... I think.
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  #120  
Old 03-11-2017, 12:11 AM
gitrdun gitrdun is offline
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
With the advancement in bullets these days, particularly in the 6.5 and 7mm catergory, extremely high BC's and controlled expansion, more and more I think the 30cal is becoming obsolete in terms of hunting.

Am I wrong in thinking less is becoming more in terms of modern cartridges?
Meaning that the 30 cal. bullets that have cleanly harvested game in the last 150 years were just kidding? The new bullet trend may be a hot item at Saks 5th Ave. NYC
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