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  #31  
Old 12-10-2013, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jungleboy View Post
not entirely true . you don't need to be able to draw a bow any more you can just use one of these ...

http://www.lockadraw.com/
As good as it to see gear like that...and its been around for a while...Just a heads up....this would classify any bow with this attachment in the same catogory as a crossbow and in sence is...

Alberta Bowhunting regulations specifies an authorized bow that is drawn, held and released by muscular power with draw weight no less than 40 lb...

In the 70's and early 80's when the vast majority of us were finger shooters we had a debate over wether a release would classify as muscular power, most of us said it wasnt, most were against it until we tried a release and saw its improvement on accuracy and efficentcy....

Later the release was classified as still muscle power, good to go debate over.

JMHO
Neil
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  #32  
Old 12-11-2013, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ishootbambi View Post
if you really are interested in the physics of it....this is a good start...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_coefficient

from that we can see that the formula goes like this....



:[2][3]
BC_{Bullets} = \frac{SD}{i} = \frac{M}{i \cdot d^2}

and the "l" in that formula is length. longer length means higher ballistic coefficient which means less speed loss at further distance. now that formula specifically is designed for bullets, but it was the most simple explanation i could find.

more speed at further distance means more energy on impact....and in archery the energy measurement that matters is momentum, not kinetic energy. in that respect, i give the longer arrow from a vertical bow the edge.

now is the difference significant enough in the real world to actually mean anything? i know i certainly dont think so. with a range finder and a proper means of sighting....both weapons are capable of killing things out to 100 yards plus. the vast majority of archers however arent anywhere near that distance.

edit....i see the formula did not copy well at all to this forum, so look at the link to see it the way it is written.
You don't need a formula to know the result is going to be meaningless at distances of 30 yards with either a 20 or 30 inch arrow. Guys on this forum are going to plug that formula into their iphones?
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  #33  
Old 12-11-2013, 09:59 AM
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Here's another Formula I use...little easier to remember...

[P][P][P]XPAS+ASMS =CTDN[x1]

Translated into Normal redneck Bowhunter...

Practise, Practise, Practise...Pick A Spot...Aim Small-Miss Small... equal EA 1 Critter Taken Dirt Nap!

lol
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  #34  
Old 12-11-2013, 10:19 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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  #35  
Old 12-11-2013, 04:14 PM
ishootbambi ishootbambi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehntr View Post
You don't need a formula to know the result is going to be meaningless at distances of 30 yards with either a 20 or 30 inch arrow. Guys on this forum are going to plug that formula into their iphones?
you must have just skimmed without really reading it.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ishootbambi View Post
now is the difference significant enough in the real world to actually mean anything? i know i certainly dont think so.
as the distance increases, the difference spreads out more and more in favour of the longer arrow. again, with a rangefinder and an adequate sighting system....it still doesnt really matter. the truth is...the vast majprity of archers arent capable past 50 yards anyway, no matter how much they wish they were.
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  #36  
Old 12-11-2013, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ishootbambi View Post
you must have just skimmed without really reading it.....



as the distance increases, the difference spreads out more and more in favour of the longer arrow. again, with a rangefinder and an adequate sighting system....it still doesnt really matter. the truth is...the vast majprity of archers arent capable past 50 yards anyway, no matter how much they wish they were.
I said I understood BC in post #20. BC doesn't account for drag imposed by any number of fletching variations. Fletching drag will bring an arrow down a lot faster than any difference in BC for a 20 inch arrow vs a 30 inch arrow. Any comment that a crossbow arrow cannot maintain airspeed as well as an archery arrow is just plain looking for an excuse to argue a point that really doesn't apply to archery like it applies to long range rifle ballistics.

Last edited by CNP; 12-11-2013 at 06:04 PM.
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  #37  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:11 PM
ishootbambi ishootbambi is offline
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Originally Posted by ehntr View Post
Any comment that a crossbow arrow cannot maintain airspeed as well as an archery arrow is just plain looking for an excuse to argue a point that really doesn't apply to archery like it applies to long range rifle ballistics.
first, you missed my point that in the real world it doesnt really matter. in hunting situations especially it doesnt matter.

second, the point is still valid. maybe not to the extent some would like it to....but it is real.

and third...im guessing you havent shot a crossbow? if you had, you would know that past about 30 yards, that bolt drops like a rock in comparison to the full length arrow. given a range finder and proper sights, you can still hit a target no problem, and with plenty of momentum to make a kill....but most guys dont have the skills to do it consistently.

either way, the point is very simple in why the bolt loses its velocity faster. shoot one sometime and you will see it for yourself. im glad i had the opportunity to take one hunting while i lived in BC. i learned a lot about the myths of crossbows when i actually got to use one. before that i really did believe the long range deadly legends about them.
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  #38  
Old 12-11-2013, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishootbambi View Post
first, you missed my point that in the real world it doesnt really matter. in hunting situations especially it doesnt matter.

second, the point is still valid. maybe not to the extent some would like it to....but it is real.

and third...im guessing you havent shot a crossbow? if you had, you would know that past about 30 yards, that bolt drops like a rock in comparison to the full length arrow. given a range finder and proper sights, you can still hit a target no problem, and with plenty of momentum to make a kill....but most guys dont have the skills to do it consistently.

either way, the point is very simple in why the bolt loses its velocity faster. shoot one sometime and you will see it for yourself. im glad i had the opportunity to take one hunting while i lived in BC. i learned a lot about the myths of crossbows when i actually got to use one. before that i really did believe the long range deadly legends about them.
lol

Quote:
im guessing you havent shot a crossbow?
4" group at 100 yards. Crossbow myths.........that is a myth itself. Drops like a rock...................stop it. That is bunk.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=180316
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  #39  
Old 12-12-2013, 12:48 AM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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So which had the flatter trajectory, the arrow or the bolt? Considering that....."Bolts fall at the same rate, independent of the speed of flight. Arrows, in contrast, depend on gaining lift in flight."
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  #40  
Old 12-12-2013, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by HunterDave View Post
So which had the flatter trajectory, the arrow or the bolt? Considering that....."Bolts fall at the same rate, independent of the speed of flight. Arrows, in contrast, depend on gaining lift in flight."
Dave. that quote from wiki about arrows depend on gaining lift in flight. I cannot accept that as good info. Their is no lift and if their was, a crossbow arrow has the same design as a crossbow arrow only that the length is shorter. The only reason a shorter arrow will bleed speed off speed faster than a longer arrow is because of bc. And that is meaningless in archery.........that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. At 30 yards how much speed do you think is lost because an arrow is 10 inches shorter than another? Answer = insignificant unless one thinks that losing a few fps is a huge concern.
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  #41  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:12 AM
ishootbambi ishootbambi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehntr View Post
The only reason a shorter arrow will bleed speed off speed faster than a longer arrow is because of bc. And that is meaningless in archery.........that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
so we agree then. the speed loss is real and it is because of BC. we also agree that at hunting ranges and with a proper set up it doesnt mean diddly.

aside from that, you seem to be trying pretty hard to start another crossbow argument thread. sorry, ill pass on that.
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  #42  
Old 12-12-2013, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishootbambi View Post
so we agree then. the speed loss is real and it is because of BC. we also agree that at hunting ranges and with a proper set up it doesnt mean diddly.

aside from that, you seem to be trying pretty hard to start another crossbow argument thread. sorry, ill pass on that.
You would have known all of that had you read my first second and third posts........but no, you "skimmed them". Read this entire thread again and see if you come to the same conclusion. I don't start any crossbow arguments.
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  #43  
Old 12-20-2013, 05:16 PM
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Don't know how many of you have actually used a crossbow but I have and lots. The shorter light bolts lose energy and drop much faster than an arrow out of a compound. A crossbow is not nearly as effective as people might think. My imposed limit is 30 yards. At 40 yards my bolt is dropping like a rock. I've seen people shoot compounds out to 60 yards with some success. You couldn't dream of doing that with a crossbow. If someone says you can they either don't have a clue or else must have something much more magical than mine & mine is a mid level excalibur. Seems like some people think a crossbow is instant success. To be very honest, if I could use a compound I would never consider a crossbow, not even close!!!
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  #44  
Old 12-21-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by skidderman View Post
Don't know how many of you have actually used a crossbow but I have and lots. The shorter light bolts lose energy and drop much faster than an arrow out of a compound. A crossbow is not nearly as effective as people might think. My imposed limit is 30 yards. At 40 yards my bolt is dropping like a rock. I've seen people shoot compounds out to 60 yards with some success. You couldn't dream of doing that with a crossbow. If someone says you can they either don't have a clue or else must have something much more magical than mine & mine is a mid level excalibur. Seems like some people think a crossbow is instant success. To be very honest, if I could use a compound I would never consider a crossbow, not even close!!!
OK. I'll bite again. coughbscough. Do you have a scope on your Excalibur? You know, the scopes that Excalibur has made with their logo on them? The BDC scopes that come with a 20/30/40/50 yard reticle. Maybe you do shoot a lot as you claim? If your self imposed limit with an Excalibur crossbow is 30 yards I suggest you team up with another crossbow shooter and compare notes. Honing skills on the interweb is not going to cut it. You have a place in SG for me to come over with my Excalibur crossbow? I'll shoot at targets 100 yards away......bench rest. An offhand 60 yard shot with a crossbow is a yawn.

Why do people low-ball crossbows? They are very good at what they do. Excalibur makes excellent crossbows.
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  #45  
Old 12-21-2013, 10:56 AM
Mistagin Mistagin is offline
 
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My Excalibur Phoenix shoots very well out to 50 yards. Then the bolts start to dropping quickly. But it's a 175 lb.

Just found out Excalibur is coming out with a new 405 fps Matrix model. I think I read it is a 290 lb draw!!! I imagine it'll add a few yards to the effective range.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/cros...-380-lynx.html

I don't think I'd want one of them, but I'm certainly interested in their new Matrix 330.
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  #46  
Old 12-21-2013, 10:58 AM
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Are those Excalibur xbows really noisey? There was a guy at the indoor range the other day and I could not believe how loud it was.

LC
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  #47  
Old 12-21-2013, 11:40 AM
Mistagin Mistagin is offline
 
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They are a lot quieter than my .270 or 12 gauge !

Some folks claim they are noisy, but I don't find mine to be. At 300 fps or so and shooting at a critter 30 yards away there is no time to 'duck' or 'jump' the shot. That's only a third of a second from release to target.

I've read that some people mod them to make them quieter, apparently it's fairly simple to do.

I haven't heard one of the new Matrix models fired so I don't know how much noise they put out.
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  #48  
Old 12-21-2013, 11:44 AM
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I have hunted and shot both bows and crossbows. Only used a crossbow for hunting well healing for a car accident and went back to my bows.

Crossbows are not hard to shoot accurately out to 50 yards. No different then a compound sight it in and no your range you can do it. It all comes down to the shooters skill level. It is actually easier to be accurate at longer range with a crossbow in my opinion.

Both have there advantages and disadvantages.

faster to get a second shot with a bow

Crossbow can be cocked and ready to go so you don't need to worry about being busted drawing on an animal.

Bows are less cumbersome well going through bush

Crossbow is more forgiving and easier to learn to be accurate.

Do to the heavier arrow you get better penetration with a bow.


Lots of myths with the whole crossbow vs bow debate but in the end the only things the same about the 2 is a string, limbs, and fletched projectile. They are completely different other wise
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  #49  
Old 12-21-2013, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
Are those Excalibur xbows really noisey? There was a guy at the indoor range the other day and I could not believe how loud it was.

LC
Compared to your compound...............oh yeah.
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