Cattle and destrution on public land

[buckman]

I am not against grazing Cows on/in the public lands of Alberta. However I am angered and dismayed by the mess they make in some of the low lying areas, and the churned up mess they turn some of the streams into.

They, the owners of the cattle should be responsible for the adequate fencing of some of the more sensitive areas,indeed some areas like parts of Kananaskis should be rid of them altogether.

And yes I do eat Beef

[35 whelen]

I have a neighbour a mile away that releases his cows every year on to the Crown Land, there was a time where they used to come into my yard and s*** everywhere and I complain to him about it ,far as I know they're still released every spring or summer but he's only got about 20 head left now so they don't really bother me.

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[cowmanbob]

Fencing off waterways should be done voluntarily by cattlemen long before it’s forced on them.

[huntwat]

A hell of a lot less damage than strip mining that we may have just dodged. Or, logging.

[bessiedog]

Equating logging to strip mining is silly.

[raab]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Equating logging to strip mining is silly.

This is true...

[Grizzly Adams]

Most of the churned up areas I've seen in low areas and streams were caused by ATVs .

Grizz

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Equating logging to strip mining is silly.

Not equating. Comparing to cattle damage.

[NCC]

The grazing action of cows is the only thing that keeps the entire West Country from turning into forest. Not much for the ungulates to eat in a spruce or pine forest. The Sheep River grazing association has some mud holes on account of the cattle but the association has also created thousands of acres of great forage for the elk and sheep.

The cows also lower the intensity of wild fires by removing the dead grass and some of the brush. From what I understand, California and BC are using targeted grazing specifically to lower the fire risk in some areas.

Ranchers need to be smarter about where they salt their cows. One of my neighbors salts his cows right beside the highway and about 10 yards from the Horseguard creek. Shows complete disregard for the waterway and damages the image of all cattle producers. I see the same thing out west along the trunk road.

[vinny]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Most of the churned up areas I've seen in low areas and streams were caused by ATVs .

Grizz

You should check out some of the stream beds where they graze cattle in the East Kootenay. Absolutely destroyed banks and churned up mud holes where they come to drink. I’m by no means insinuating that the atvs don’t make a mess if used improperly, but if they stick to a single trail without trail braiding, the cattle are far worse and cause more widespread damage. It’s funny that no one cares if the cattle destroy spawning beds. Not looking for a fight, just adding my observations from personal experience. I think both groups could use some smartening up.

[coachman]

Just curious how much damage the millions of buffalo that lived in the area did. Maybe it is a natural way of dealing with with something that mother earth has figured out Just a thought, because there where a lot more buffalo running back then then we have cow?

[Wes_G]

Originally Posted by huntwat

A hell of a lot less damage than strip mining that we may have just dodged. Or, logging.

We haven't dodged anything. Read a little more into what they announced today. They only cancelled 11 leases that were sold in December. Which is .002% of what is currently out there. This does not include any of the currently proposed mines.

[Wendigo]

Seems like someone is bitter about being denied permission by a cattle farmer....just remember WHO feeds the masses.
And also don't complain about beef prices.
But you probably enjoy a nice soy beverage as your hiking in your underarmor camo.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Seems like someone is bitter about being denied permission by a cattle farmer....just remember WHO feeds the masses.
And also don't complain about beef prices.
But you probably enjoy a nice soy beverage as your hiking in your underarmor camo.

You assume a lot about someone with a legitimate concern.

[416 Ultramag]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Seems like someone is bitter about being denied permission by a cattle farmer....just remember WHO feeds the masses.
And also don't complain about beef prices.
But you probably enjoy a nice soy beverage as your hiking in your underarmor camo.

I disagree how ranchers can deny permission on crown grazing leases. They should definitely be able to control vehicles, but not foot access. They are paying for the grazing. They do not own it.

The masses also give them an income, vehicle, tractors, roads... the ranchers dont build these. We kind of need each other.

[Flight01]

Originally Posted by 416 Ultramag

I disagree how ranchers can deny permission on crown grazing leases. They should definitely be able to control vehicles, but not foot access. They are paying for the grazing. They do not own it.

The masses also give them an income, vehicle, tractors, roads... the ranchers dont build these. We kind of need each other.

Agree , we all need each other.

With regards to land access on public grazing leases. I think, there is the catch “I think”, foot access for fishing and hiking, foot access for bow hunting even while cattle is present , also November 1, all cattle off and foot access allowed for rifle season, truck access on trails/roads only seems reasonable.
I’ve been denied access on 16 out of 18 grazing lease requests . All in the Lac la Biche area. I understand their concerns sometimes. But there were a few that kept 10-12 head of cattle or even 3-4 horses on the property to deny access. Those guys give the good ones bad rap. One older couple had me
In for coffee , pulled out a map, talked about where he sees animals, past success. Not everyone is greedy or paranoid.

As for the damage done, water ways would be the biggest concerns , cow plops all along a creek or pond that flows into surrounding waters is a problem.

[Pembina]

Posted this last summer in the fly fishing section, was fishing in the Belly river by Waterton and there was cattle in the river everywhere. This was not public land but still cant be good for the river and the down stream users.

[walking buffalo]

Back on topic.

Cattle and their well documented harmful effect in unmanaged grazing riparian zones are nothing new.

Lots of effort has been made into enacting better management practices.

Lots of work still to do.

While the destruction of the ecosystem between the Crowsnest and Kananaskis through Industrial extraction has been planned for decades, it sure would be right to not do it.
There comes a time where people have to turn their backs on $ over a healthy Earth.

While the Cowboys are bringing up Water Quality, I hope they are asked about what they are personally doing to limit the damage their cows are doing.

Some reading on Cows and Riparian issues/efforts in Alberta.

https://www.alberta.ca/grazing-and-r...ian-areas.aspx

https://cowsandfish.org/

[buckbrush]

Originally Posted by cowmanbob

Fencing off waterways should be done voluntarily by cattlemen long before it’s forced on them.

I agree 100% The grazing can have benefits too but I see no benefit in cows tearing through creeks.

The lease holders denying permission is also a thorn in my side.
I have a much easier time gaining access to deeded land than lease land.

I've been denied permission to shed hunt because they wanted to go in first, denied permission for the first two weeks of hunting because there was a big deer they were after, Denied permission because I had a mule tag, "not allowing any more hunters this year" while the lease holder and their two friends hunted it hard, one lease holder even denied permission 'since their freezer was still empty even though they gave me permission the year before'...(I didn't kill anything that year anyhow)

[cody j]

Originally Posted by buckbrush

I agree 100% The grazing can have benefits too but I see no benefit in cows tearing through creeks.

The lease holders denying permission is also a thorn in my side.
I have a much easier time gaining access to deeded land than lease land.

I've been denied permission to shed hunt because they wanted to go in first, denied permission for the first two weeks of hunting because there was a big deer they were after, Denied permission because I had a mule tag, "not allowing any more hunters this year" while the lease holder and their two friends hunted it hard, one lease holder even denied permission 'since their freezer was still empty even though they gave me permission the year before'...(I didn't kill anything that year anyhow)

None of which are valid reasons to refuse access

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by 35 whelen

I have a neighbour a mile away that releases his cows every year on to the Crown Land, there was a time where they used to come into my yard and s*** everywhere and I complain to him about it ,far as I know they're still released every spring or summer but he's only got about 20 head left now so they don't really bother me.

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property behind my place was leased and use to have cattle on it...one day this fella on a horse came down the quad trail on my property and says if I saw any cows and I said yup one is hung in the shed...got a little eye bally with me and I then mentioned your on my property too...I did tell him going forward that when I was out and about if I repaired the fence...pushed the cattle back in etc come fall can I hunt the land and he said yup....but to the OP they are destructive buggers but taste goooooood!

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Pembina

Posted this last summer in the fly fishing section, was fishing in the Belly river by Waterton and there was cattle in the river everywhere. This was not public land but still cant be good for the river and the down stream users.

Do cows do more damage than 1000 head of elk in the river upstream of them?

[35 whelen]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

property behind my place was leased and use to have cattle on it...one day this fella on a horse came down the quad trail on my property and says if I saw any cows and I said yup one is hung in the shed...got a little eye bally with me and I then mentioned your on my property too...I did tell him going forward that when I was out and about if I repaired the fence...pushed the cattle back in etc come fall can I hunt the land and he said yup....but to the OP they are destructive buggers but taste goooooood!

Yes after the second year I offered to help him with fencing and I now have a permanent hunting area on his private land.

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[leeelmer]

So comparing cows to buffalo is stupid, and very uninformed.
Have you ever been to a bison farm?
Do you actively farm buffalo?
I bet no.
A very good friend has about 700 buffalo, and runs a few thousand cattle, it is amazing the difference where the buffalo are and where the cattle are, there is no comparing the two.

For example when you go to a cattle farm and there is a creek or pond for water, the cows crap in it, trample all over it.
Buffalo do not, not one foot print in the mud, they don't wander down into the water to drink.
When they cross, they cross in one spot.
Wild creatures, even when farmed seam to take care of there water supply. Cows don't.
As for cows on crown land(not grazing leases) but just crown grazing, it should be stopped. If the rancher cannot make a go of farming without needing cheep grazing on crown land west country, then he is not doing business properly and should look for a new job.
They destroy the west country, and take away a pile of forage for elk, moose and deer. They wreck streams and wet land.

[silver lab]

This thread is unbelievable......
Pick a side boys and girls and try and screw everyone you can!!!! It’s the liberal way!

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by coachman

Just curious how much damage the millions of buffalo that lived in the area did. Maybe it is a natural way of dealing with with something that mother earth has figured out Just a thought, because there where a lot more buffalo running back then then we have cow?

Well, for one thing, cattle help control grass growth, a potential fire risk in a dry year, I think people exaggerate the size of the problem and are just offended by their presence, which in reality isn't that great, as well as tightly managed.


Grizz

[NCC]

Originally Posted by 416 Ultramag

I disagree how ranchers can deny permission on crown grazing leases. They should definitely be able to control vehicles, but not foot access. They are paying for the grazing. They do not own it.

The masses also give them an income, vehicle, tractors, roads... the ranchers dont build these. We kind of need each other.

Ranchers don't need you. We need to remember that hunters are a small group. Grande Cache Coal doesn't own the mountain either but try trespassing on their surface lease. I can understand everyone's frustration with lease holders, but I have fixed enough fence and searched for enough cows that I understand why some lease holders get their back up over access. Everyone on here is an upstanding citizen, but as a landowner and former lease holder, i know that most of you have no idea of the knuckleheads, poachers, and lying POS's that are out there (cutting fences, rutting up fields, pounding on doors at 6 am, leaving gates open) ruining the image of hunters. If both sides follow the rules as is, the system works. Most slob hunters go away as soon as they hear "foot access only".

back to the op - I still think cattle, if managed correctly, are good for the environment. Proper grazing, done to mimic what the bison used to do, rejuvenates the grass and controls brush. Deer eat the grass along highways that's been mowed because it's more palatable and nutritious that the old dead grass in the bush. I've always found more game in the fringe areas next to farms and ranches than back in the deep bush.

[landowner]

Originally Posted by leeelmer

So comparing cows to buffalo is stupid, and very uninformed.
Have you ever been to a bison farm?
Do you actively farm buffalo?
I bet no.
A very good friend has about 700 buffalo, and runs a few thousand cattle, it is amazing the difference where the buffalo are and where the cattle are, there is no comparing the two.

For example when you go to a cattle farm and there is a creek or pond for water, the cows crap in it, trample all over it.
Buffalo do not, not one foot print in the mud, they don't wander down into the water to drink.
When they cross, they cross in one spot.
Wild creatures, even when farmed seam to take care of there water supply. Cows don't.
As for cows on crown land(not grazing leases) but just crown grazing, it should be stopped. If the rancher cannot make a go of farming without needing cheep grazing on crown land west country, then he is not doing business properly and should look for a new job.
They destroy the west country, and take away a pile of forage for elk, moose and deer. They wreck streams and wet land.

Wow , are you ever misinformed. I’ve been to many bison operations. For the most part the land is grazed shorter and more damage is done to the land than a well managed cattle herd. The main reason being that Buffalo can be hard to manage and rotate around the pastures. I live next to a national park where no cattle graze. Ask the hunters where most of the deer and elk are ? They congregate on properly grazed pastures.Why ? Because they prefer the second growth grass and the biodiversity of grasses. Kick all the cattle out of public land and you will see these species drift down onto private grazed lands. Sure there are some bad operators out there who need to be taken to task by the public land managers, but grazing public lands actually contribute positively to the health and biodiversity grasslands. Kick the cattle out , watch the game leave and watch it burn.

[Headdamage]

I don't mind cattle on crown land even when the do mess up the streams a bit. What I do mind is the access restrictions for recreational use of grazing leased crown land.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by cowmanbob

Fencing off waterways should be done voluntarily by cattlemen long before it’s forced on them.

Exactly my point when I made my post.