Efficient BG Cartridge to do it all.

[Jerry D]

A .338 06 is a large gun. Good if your going after moose or bears and elk at closer ranges all the time. I do feel the .30-06 is better suited though for farther shots and lighter game with lighter bullets and factory ammo, and when loaded with 180s, will compete very well with the .338 that I don’t see the point in going for one over the .30-06 unless it’s a dedicated short range big game gun within a few hundred yards which is probably enough range for the majority of hunters that it really won’t matter what your shoot!

That 6.8 western though. A lot of guys feel the 140gr 6.5mm as a little light for larger game. So a .270 caliber shooting 175s instead of 130 or 150s seems pretty cool in a 8twist!

For my style of hunting and ranges and game I currently shoot. I feel the 7mm08 is about as perfect as it gets with 140gr bullets

[Salavee]

Just to keep the pot boiling, this is a 5 shot group from a 9.3 x 62

Load is 58.7 gr RL-15. 250 Accubond @ 2440 fps.

[Roamer]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

LOL, reminds me of the time a couple aquaintances went grizzly hunting on the BC coast. Guy with the tag carried a 375 H&H, his buddy carried a 30-30 lever and a tag for blacktails. They unknowingly walked up on a bear, didn't see it until was running straight at them, guy with the 375 emptied his gun and never hit the bear, buddy with the 30-30 whacked it dead as a doornail with one shot in the head, cool as a cucumber.

I don’t know if you watch Meat Eater, but there is an episode where they encounter a sow grizz with two cubs. It’s Steve and his buddy Ryan. Steve is not paying very much attention to the bear, Ryan is applying all of his attention to the bear. The bear comes around some bushes and charges, Steve is caught off guard, didn’t have a round chambered and stumbles over his pack while trying to back away from the bear, while also trying to chamber a round. All Ryan did was plant his feet, bring up his rifle and let one rip as a warning, then immediately worked his bolt as fats as he could. It’s amazing to watch the difference in reaction between the two. I’d say if Steve was all alone he would have been dinner. Ryan was ready and stood his ground. It was responsible of them to do all they could to not actually kill the sow. They were able to stand it down and it went it’s separate way.

[Roamer]

Originally Posted by Dean2

There is a great though very long joke about exactly that. Short form, hunter takes a shot at a bear, goes up to check it out, bear is still alive and unhurt, says to hunter, two choices, I kill or you or you let me have my way with you. Hunter picks second choice, leaves walking pretty funny. Goes to store for bigger gun. Process repeats itself through the 460 Weatherby and finally a bazooka. After Bazooka failure, bear says to the hunter, your not really out here for the hunting, are you.

That’s a good one! Haven’t heard it before

[6.5 shooter]

9.3 x 62 mm. nearly the same down range energy of a 375 H&H, flatter shooting and based off the 30-06 sized case, shortened my 2mm and necked up. Scary accurate and recoil is quite manageable. More then enough ohmf for even big bears and you can eat right up to the hole on deer.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Roamer

I don’t know if you watch Meat Eater, but there is an episode where they encounter a sow grizz with two cubs. It’s Steve and his buddy Ryan. Steve is not paying very much attention to the bear, Ryan is applying all of his attention to the bear. The bear comes around some bushes and charges, Steve is caught off guard, didn’t have a round chambered and stumbles over his pack while trying to back away from the bear, while also trying to chamber a round. All Ryan did was plant his feet, bring up his rifle and let one rip as a warning, then immediately worked his bolt as fats as he could. It’s amazing to watch the difference in reaction between the two. I’d say if Steve was all alone he would have been dinner. Ryan was ready and stood his ground. It was responsible of them to do all they could to not actually kill the sow. They were able to stand it down and it went it’s separate way.

One of the many reasons why that show is terrible

[stob]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Just to keep the pot boiling, this is a 5 shot group from a 9.3 x 62

Load is 58.7 gr RL-15. 250 Accubond @ 2440 fps.

Is this the sako av?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by stob

Is this the sako av?

Yes it is. Luv it !

[stob]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Yes it is. Luv it !

Perfect..all the best

[trigger7mm]

I haven’t done it all, but I have certainly done most of it over the last 45 years with my trusty 7mm mag. Everything from badgers to buffalo. The bigger stuff has been with the 175 grain Hornady Interlok bullet.

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Coiloil 37
Sectional Density is the ratio of weight to diameter squared, or more accurately mass to cross section, so any time you increase calibre in the same weight of bullet the SD will obviously decrease. So a 180 grain 30 cal has an SD of .271, and the same in 338 has an SD of .225, but at 160 grains a 7 mm has an SD of .283, Does this mean we should all be using 7 mms of some sort and the 30 cal are handicapped.

The issue is, do you have enough SD to get the penetration you need. In my view as long as you have a heavy enough bullet in the calibre you are using for moose and elk to give you an SD of .250, which you hit at 200 grains in the 338, to .270 or better and a bullet that holds together you are fine. In the case of the 338 the 225 has an SD of .281, the 250 grain Bullet has an SD of .313. Any SD over .3 is consider a top choice for game needing deep penetration. Like any other cartridge, half the battle is picking the right bullet for the job. As far as B.C., to 350 yards I have never paid much attention to that factor, outside of not recommending RN bullets.

I’m well aware of the definition of SD and how it’s applied. Doesn’t mean I agree with it being the end all be all of penetration. A 180 Berger vld has the same SD as a 180 Barnes but their penetration is vastly different. From my experience if I want more penetration I choose the correct type of bullet. I do believe mass is a contributing factor to penetration as well but not in the context of SD and that’s a different discussion then this.
Curious why I got the answer I did. Was it a deflection from your rounding skills or did you take what I wrote out of context and believed that was the necessary reply?

Should we all shoot .284 pills? I doubt it and that’s not where I was going. I too don’t care much about BC as I only shoot to 400 meters on game and any spitzer I load will get me there.
My original post was simply that your numbers were a little different from the load data online and artificially made the 338-06 look significantly better then the 30-06.

My point in the second post was that yes, the 338-06 gains frontal diameter, the ability to handle heavier bullets then it’s .308 brother and gets the benefit of a larger bore and higher pressure, both of which contribute to increased performance from that case. I don’t however believe it’s as versatile as the 30-06 and if your the type who cares about BC or SD it lags behind the 30-06 in identical bullet weights which is where I was heading.
When I want to shoot things with a .338 bullet I reach for my 338 win mag or if I want to roll a lever my .338 marlin express. I’m a big fan of the .338’s but also my 30-06 and personally haven’t found a compelling reason to have a 338-06. Doesn’t mean it isn’t great, simply not as versatile as the ‘06 and not as heavy a hammer as the .338 win

So far as versatility I’ve shot game with my ‘06 with everything from a 130 Barnes at over 3400 FPS to a 200 grain accubond at 2730 FPS. I have some 220 grain partitions loaded but only used them in a 760 carbine for tracking bears after I ran an arrow through their lungs so I can’t discuss their performance. I “feel” the ‘06 makes the most of that case and has very few shortcomings.

[Dean2]

You seem to be fixated on the rounding issue so I will address that, despite having ignored the clear provocation previously. I do not consider 50 or even 100 FPS as a material difference or decider. I wasn't trying to say the 338-06 was significantly better than the 30-06 speed wise with heavy bullets, even at 220 grains the difference is about a 100 FPS, I know, it is a rounded number, just that I did not see the argument that it was severely handicapped in any way, including SD and B.C..

With respect to all your other points, clearly no one is going to make even the slightest headway trying to have a discussion with you so at this point, I leave others to judge which cartridge they prefer to have.

[Flight01]

Efficient big game, lower end but very capable, I vote 308 Win, 165 partitions

[270person]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

I’m well aware of the definition of SD and how it’s applied. Doesn’t mean I agree with it being the end all be all of penetration. A 180 Berger vld has the same SD as a 180 Barnes but their penetration is vastly different. From my experience if I want more penetration I choose the correct type of bullet. I do believe mass is a contributing factor to penetration as well but not in the context of SD and that’s a different discussion then this.
Curious why I got the answer I did. Was it a deflection from your rounding skills or did you take what I wrote out of context and believed that was the necessary reply?

Should we all shoot .284 pills? I doubt it and that’s not where I was going. I too don’t care much about BC as I only shoot to 400 meters on game and any spitzer I load will get me there.
My original post was simply that your numbers were a little different from the load data online and artificially made the 338-06 look significantly better then the 30-06.

My point in the second post was that yes, the 338-06 gains frontal diameter, the ability to handle heavier bullets then it’s .308 brother and gets the benefit of a larger bore and higher pressure, both of which contribute to increased performance from that case. I don’t however believe it’s as versatile as the 30-06 and if your the type who cares about BC or SD it lags behind the 30-06 in identical bullet weights which is where I was heading.
When I want to shoot things with a .338 bullet I reach for my 338 win mag or if I want to roll a lever my .338 marlin express. I’m a big fan of the .338’s but also my 30-06 and personally haven’t found a compelling reason to have a 338-06. Doesn’t mean it isn’t great, simply not as versatile as the ‘06 and not as heavy a hammer as the .338 win

So far as versatility I’ve shot game with my ‘06 with everything from a 130 Barnes at over 3400 FPS to a 200 grain accubond at 2730 FPS. I have some 220 grain partitions loaded but only used them in a 760 carbine for tracking bears after I ran an arrow through their lungs so I can’t discuss their performance. I “feel” the ‘06 makes the most of that case and has very few shortcomings.

I shoot .358 225's from my 06 brass at a very comfortable 2700 + change fps and wouldn't trade it for the the .308 bullet for any money. I'd put it against an 06 shooting 220's any day of the week for big game.

And actually we all should probably shoot. 284 pills.

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Dean2

You seem to be fixated on the rounding issue so I will address that, despite having ignored the clear provocation previously. I do not consider 50 or even 100 FPS as a material difference or decider. I wasn't trying to say the 338-06 was significantly better than the 30-06 speed wise with heavy bullets, even at 220 grains the difference is about a 100 FPS, I know, it is a rounded number, just that I did not see the argument that it was severely handicapped in any way, including SD and B.C..

With respect to all your other points, clearly no one is going to make even the slightest headway trying to have a discussion with you so at this point, I leave others to judge which cartridge they prefer to have.

What made me poke my nose in the “discussion” was your lack of accuracy for the objective data.
You wrote the 338-06 would launch a 250 grain at 2600 and a 30-06 wouldn’t break 2500 with a 220. The data says a 338-06 will push a 250 grain at 2540 and a 30-06 will send a 220 grain at 2602. That is a difference. How much anyone should care about that difference is completely up to them but it was what I was pointing out.

If we are going to compare anything we should be honest about the objective data. It’s the one thing that’s fixed and reliable amongst all the opinions.
For this conversation, both cartridges have data regarding powder capacity, available bullet weights, SD, BC, velocity, availability of rifle and cartridge, velocity at certain barrel lengths, recoil numbers, etc. Ideally we lay those out first.
Then I would expect most will rank order a cartridges attributes based on individual bias, experience, and knowledge. For everything one person values someone else won’t care about. You yourself said ~100 FPS doesn’t make much difference and at <400 yards the BC isn’t much to worry about (within reason). I won’t argue with that but I bet it wouldn’t take long to find someone else who thought both of those were relevant. That part of the SUBJECTIVE data we can discuss all day long and is what makes these conversations worth the time to read. Throughout my posts I’ll use words like “I feel” when talking about the subjective and that’s anyone’s cue to know it’s a debatable topic.

It does a disservice to the conversation though if we start with misinformation which is all I wanted to highlight. I got a response I didn’t expect which means you probably didn’t interpret where I was heading with the post.
To play the victim and accuse me of provoking you is interesting. To end with an attempt at character assassination pretending I’m to hard headed to change my opinion is surprising and speaks more of you then me. I was highlighting the error in your post and nothing more. I’m always open to discussion on the subjective.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Salavee

With powder prices going thru the roof, what do you think would be the most powder efficient "do it all" cartridge available today, for any and all Big Game from Whitetail to the largest, meanest or toughest critter you could possibly shoot in Alberta, out to 350 yards max.

just to put it back out there as some are not filling the complete request from the OP...

[Dean2]

Coil

Depending on what load data u consult you can get a 200 fps difference in max.vel. you posted that big a difference yourself. So much for "objective" data.

Long and short, for purpose of what the op posted, 308 is a good answer as is 30-06 or the 338-06 and 9.3x62

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

just to put it back out there as some are not filling the complete request from the OP...

If I was limiting myself to one cartridge because of availability, the 270, 30-06, or 7mm Rem Mag would probably be as far as I looked.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

just to put it back out there as some are not filling the complete request from the OP...

......forget it.

[leo]

Originally Posted by Salavee

With powder prices going thru the roof, what do you think would be the most powder efficient "do it all" cartridge available today, for any and all Big Game from Whitetail to the largest, meanest or toughest critter you could possibly shoot in Alberta, out to 350 yards max.

To meet that criteria, I'd probably say a 303 British with a 4X scope on it. Given bullets from 150 to 220 grain, and burning less powder than a 308 on most given loads. It has taken all Alberta game, and is capable of terminal performance out to 350 yards and more.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by leo

To meet that criteria, I'd probably say a 303 British with a 4X scope on it. Given bullets from 150 to 220 grain, and burning less powder than a 308 on most given loads. It has taken all Alberta game, and is capable of terminal performance out to 350 yards and more.

Oh you just made Cats day........I'd agree it's a great contender.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by leo

To meet that criteria, I'd probably say a 303 British with a 4X scope on it. Given bullets from 150 to 220 grain, and burning less powder than a 308 on most given loads. It has taken all Alberta game, and is capable of terminal performance out to 350 yards and more.

hard ice crusted mature bull bison?....maybe if you were running a "premium" bullet..

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

hard ice crusted mature bull bison?....maybe if you were running a "premium" bullet..

I my buddies have killed bulls with 270s shooting 140 gr bullets.....they are not bullet proof.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

I my buddies have killed bulls with 270s shooting 140 gr bullets.....they are not bullet proof.

true...but we got into one a few years back in January...-25...bugger was plated in ice armour….this bugger was big as it went into the B&C book....you asked heavy and nasty sharp teeth etc...220 gr....cast bullet? I think the 303 is meeting the criteria you put forth....

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

I my buddies have killed bulls with 270s shooting 140 gr bullets.....they are not bullet proof.

Bell shot 800 elephants with a 7x57 - 173gr(.284) round nose military approx. 2300 fps (.306 sd), and 2-300 hundred elephants with a 6.5x54(.264) with 159gr round nose approx. 2400 fps (.326 sd)

stands to reason a reasonable construction 140gr .270(.277) at 29-2950 fps and .261 sd will be able to take down a much smaller buffalo without much fuss

A 6.5 Creedmoor will chuck a 140-147gr pill at 2700 fps (sd .287-.301)...nothing wrong with those numbers, use a tough bullet and away you go.

In 7mm starting at 162gr you get .287 sd, 168gr is .298 and 180gr is .319.

In .30 cal you start approaching .3 in sd about 190gr and 200gr is .301....and in .338 you need to get up into the 250gr range to see above .3 sd...takes so much more powder and recoil to send the thick covid diet pills down range

of all the pills i just listed, the 159gr 6.5 is the highest sd at .326, not much can take that at 2400 fps...

surprised there aren't more responses for the 6.5x55 here or the 7mm's running heavy for cal bullets...how much punishment to your shoulder do you need? not much, but free world says you get to choose whatever you think is necessary for the game you're after, i think Bell would have freaked out over the 6.5x55 with the 160's

[270person]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Bell shot 800 elephants with a 7x57 - 173gr(.284) round nose military approx. 2300 fps (.306 sd), and 2-300 hundred elephants with a 6.5x54(.264) with 159gr round nose approx. 2400 fps (.326 sd)

stands to reason a reasonable construction 140gr .270(.277) at 29-2950 fps and .261 sd will be able to take down a much smaller buffalo without much fuss

A 6.5 Creedmoor will chuck a 140-147gr pill at 2700 fps (sd .287-.301)...nothing wrong with those numbers, use a tough bullet and away you go.

In 7mm starting at 162gr you get .287 sd, 168gr is .298 and 180gr is .319.

In .30 cal you start approaching .3 in sd about 190gr and 200gr is .301....and in .338 you need to get up into the 250gr range to see above .3 sd...takes so much more powder and recoil to send the thick covid diet pills down range

of all the pills i just listed, the 159gr 6.5 is the highest sd at .326, not much can take that at 2400 fps...

surprised there aren't more responses for the 6.5x55 here or the 7mm's running heavy for cal bullets...how much punishment to your shoulder do you need? not much, but free world says you get to choose whatever you think is necessary for the game you're after, i think Bell would have freaked out over the 6.5x55 with the 160's

Re 7mm its probably because most hunters use 140, 150, 160, and 175 pills. I know very few, if any using 168 and 180???

[leo]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

hard ice crusted mature bull bison?....maybe if you were running a "premium" bullet..

I shot a few of them in my day, none had ice crusted coats though. 270 win, 308 win ,308 Norma, 338 win mag and a 270WSM is what I used on them.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

hard ice crusted mature bull bison?....maybe if you were running a "premium" bullet..

I’ve killed three Bison. With “premium” thirty caliber and 7MM bullets. And they died. Pretty abruptly.

[Buckhead]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Bell shot 800 elephants with a 7x57 - 173gr(.284) round nose military approx. 2300 fps (.306 sd), and 2-300 hundred elephants with a 6.5x54(.264) with 159gr round nose approx. 2400 fps (.326 sd)

stands to reason a reasonable construction 140gr .270(.277) at 29-2950 fps and .261 sd will be able to take down a much smaller buffalo without much fuss

A 6.5 Creedmoor will chuck a 140-147gr pill at 2700 fps (sd .287-.301)...nothing wrong with those numbers, use a tough bullet and away you go.

In 7mm starting at 162gr you get .287 sd, 168gr is .298 and 180gr is .319.

In .30 cal you start approaching .3 in sd about 190gr and 200gr is .301....and in .338 you need to get up into the 250gr range to see above .3 sd...takes so much more powder and recoil to send the thick covid diet pills down range

of all the pills i just listed, the 159gr 6.5 is the highest sd at .326, not much can take that at 2400 fps...

surprised there aren't more responses for the 6.5x55 here or the 7mm's running heavy for cal bullets...how much punishment to your shoulder do you need? not much, but free world says you get to choose whatever you think is necessary for the game you're after, i think Bell would have freaked out over the 6.5x55 with the 160's

Not really. Later on Karamojo Bell switched to the .318 Westley Richards (a .330 caliber bullet) and this is what he said;

"wrote that the .318 Westley Richards was a more reliable killer for certain shots than his favoured .275 Rigby, but the .275 Rigby was a "surgeons" rifle.[9] On one occasion Bell used a pair of .318 Westley Richards rifles to take nine elephants with nine shots, he later wrote "In my opinion, the 250gr .318, although far from perfect, approaches most nearly the big game hunter's ideal bullet".[3]

[Homesteader]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

just to put it back out there as some are not filling the complete request from the OP...

Oh, well that makes more sense. I change my answer to 308 win or 7-08