Disgust - Selling out for Photo/Marketing Opportunity

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by skidderman

I don't think it's good but it's one way to try to claw back an ugly deficit that wasn't created by the conservatives. I'm sure if anyone has ideas how to get out of the mess the government would surely like to hear from you. Kenny like Doug Ford was left with a mess & as soon as they try to clean it up everyone hates them. Maybe the NDP would do better.

Practically speaking, we don't have a huge Provincial deficit. It's not ideal, but we aren't even in outskirts of the same city of the ball park that Ontario, Quebec, and Newfoundland and Labrador are in. *Ok, just checked, and we are in the same city* But we can pay it off.

What'll happen is land will sold and the money squandered. Rinse and repeat. Or we pay it off, then go back into debt.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by NCC

Selling the grazing leases west of Longview would be bad. Opening up some of the vast expanses of forest in the North Peace would be okay. There is no danger of running out of crown land unless the government completely loses their mind. The hunters are all concentrated along the agriculural fringe land because that's where the game is.

As for the moose, I saw more moose in one cornfield this fall than I would see in a year's worth of travel in the boreal forest or mountains. Corn and swath grazing are the best things that ever happened to moose, elk and deer.

Originally Posted by NCC

There are families in the Peace Country farming 30 000 acres, so it must be decent cropland.

Do you think that the WWF tells stories to South Americans about Western Canadian farmers clearing the boreal forest to get donations in the same way they solicite donations from Canadians by ranting about the destruction of the Amazon by farmers?

Many of these areas were routinely burned off before whitey showed up and started putting out the fires. Old growth forests in Alberta are more of an anomoly than most people think. One old timer told me that when he first came to the area, he could drive a team and wagon almost anywhere east of Rocky Mountain House as it was all prairie. The area surrounding my farm NW of Valleyview was all burned off in the 60's. Looking at old homestead photos, there are few that contain large trees.

I do agree that if this land sale is solely to generate revenue, it's a bad idea as the money will likely be wasted.

I don't disagree with fringe area being great for biodiversity, but there's a few ways to achieve that.

I think as you say with your last statement, that it will be a waste.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

And one last time.. whether we like it or not, provinces and countries progress and expand. Just a fact of life. I wish Alberta had the same population 40 years ago. But that’s not realistic. Is it?

So because you can't wish us back in time, we should completely abandon the idea of having wild land?

Last I checked we are part of a country. With borders. We, as Canadians don't have to just cave to the globalist agenda and have untold millions flood across our borders. We wouldn't be growing even if we weren't bringing in millions of people from other countries.

I don't want to live stacked upon other people like so much cord wood. Who would want that? If that's what people want, maybe they can "trade" with overcrowded countries that live like that.

I'd like to leave something for the next generations.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

So because you can't wish us back in time, we should completely abandon the idea of having wild land?

Last I checked we are part of a country. With borders. We, as Canadians don't have to just cave to the globalist agenda and have untold millions flood across our borders. We wouldn't be growing even if we weren't bringing in millions of people from other countries.

I don't want to live stacked upon other people like so much cord wood. Who would want that? If that's what people want, maybe they can "trade" with overcrowded countries that live like that.

I'd like to leave something for the next generations.

We’d all like that. Utopia. Do some research on mass migration. Better yet, look around you. It’s already happening. The herds are coming. We are “the promise land” so to speak. Sucks but ain’t no stopping it. Dam other countries having over 2.6 kids per family!!!

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

We’d all like that. Utopia. Do some research on mass migration. Better yet, look around you. It’s already happening. The herds are coming. We are “the promise land” so to speak. Sucks but ain’t no stopping it. Dam other countries having over 2.6 kids per family!!!

Seen it, and the effects of it. That's part of why my heels are dug in.

We don't need it, but we might need to have a few more kids instead of encouraging singlehood and superficial sexual encounters, or we could end up in a jam like Japan.

Not quite ready to become "post national" like socks figures we are.

[bessiedog]

Why aren’t ex wild rose guys screaming blue murder that Brian Jean got ripped off in the leadership race.

I would have much preferred Brian as head of UPC.
Made in Alberta guy.
Knows what hard work is.
Knows what family means.


Not slimey.

I just don’t get it.

Now we got this.... nice revenue generating idea.... reminds me of the lazy third generation kid who inherits the farm, but too lazy to work it properly.

[ruffy71]

For all the people stating that there is a "Ton" of crown land....

What percentage of the crown land should be sold off? 10%, 30%, 50%?

Because no matter what number you choose, eventually somebody that wants land will come along and say "ahhh come on, look at all the land over there, sell it"

I'm sure there was a lot of crown land in the USA at one point in time, there ain't now. Was there a point where people thought, "wait a minute". No, they just got to where they are, and after they realize, "wow, there isn't a lot of land left that isn't desert"

Having vast swaths of crown land is Canada. For our entire existence we could tell the world, the Europeans, Yanks, Chinese... we have this vast area of natural land that you guys lost and will never get back. It's in our friggin' DNA.

Leave it alone.

[HVA7mm]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

For all the people stating that there is a "Ton" of crown land....

What percentage of the crown land should be sold off? 10%, 30%, 50%?

Because no matter what number you choose, eventually somebody that wants land will come along and say "ahhh come on, look at all the land over there, sell it"

I'm sure there was a lot of crown land in the USA at one point in time, there ain't now. Was there a point where people thought, "wait a minute". No, they just got to where they are, and after they realize, "wow, there isn't a lot of land left that isn't desert"

Having vast swaths of crown land is Canada. For our entire existence we could tell the world, the Europeans, Yanks, Chinese... we have this vast area of natural land that you guys lost and will never get back. It's in our friggin' DNA.

Leave it alone.

You have a point to some extent, however the US had about a 100 year head start on us, Europe nearly 3000 years and China closer to 4000 years. The US has an area close to ours but with 330 million people. Europe has around the same land mass as Canada, but a population of almost 750 million. China again similar land mass with 1.3 billion. They all chewed up as much land as they needed to over the years as people needed somewhere to settle and land to grow crops to feed them.

I love having as much open space as we do in Canada, so does every other person that visits here, but it has changed in the 50 years I've been alive and will continue to do so unfortunately.

[ruffy71]

I'm not as fatalistic about it as you are. Our population growth would be close to 0 if not for immigration.

It makes me sound racist but that is the reason I am against immigration. I know my ancestors emigrated here and it is grossly hypocritical for me to say, "but now turn off the taps"

But I can't help it. I don't want more people here because I love how sparsely populated we are. I've been to crowded places with warm weather and lovely sights, lovely to visit, but I want to live here.

We can literally make a conscious decision about how many people live here, and how much land we sell off.

[mac1983]

I would like to know how much prime #1 agricultural land is being swallowed up by cities and towns and acreages never to be farmed again. I see it in all the cities the best land and soil, being scraped off and sold. This land is usually the best in the province simply because that's where the people wanted to live, soil that took thousands of years to build, gone overnight, is that progress? And not a peep out of people, yet the present government wants to sell some bush land and turn it into productive farmland and the world is going to end? Anybody that knows what it takes to make good productive farmland out of bush land also know that the vast majority of crown land in Alberta is not conducive to farming operations to hilly, to wet, no soil etc. So for all you people worried about selling some bush land look to our heritage and you will see that's what made Alberta. Be more concerned about urban sprawl than us country people trying to make a living in trying times.

[Tfng]

I’m with you ruffy71

[Tfng]

Originally Posted by mac1983

I would like to know how much prime #1 agricultural land is being swallowed up by cities and towns and acreages never to be farmed again. I see it in all the cities the best land and soil, being scraped off and sold. This land is usually the best in the province simply because that's where the people wanted to live, soil that took thousands of years to build, gone overnight, is that progress? And not a peep out of people, yet the present government wants to sell some bush land and turn it into productive farmland and the world is going to end? Anybody that knows what it takes to make good productive farmland out of bush land also know that the vast majority of crown land in Alberta is not conducive to farming operations to hilly, to wet, no soil etc. So for all you people worried about selling some bush land look to our heritage and you will see that's what made Alberta. Be more concerned about urban sprawl than us country people trying to make a living in trying times.

Exactly. Why would we sell off crown land to be farmed or ranched, it’s marginal land. Leave it alone.

[mac1983]

Originally Posted by Tfng

Exactly. Why would we sell off crown land to be farmed or ranched, it’s marginal land. Leave it alone.

Go for a drive east of High Level you would be suprised at how productive the bush land can be.

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by mac1983

I would like to know how much prime #1 agricultural land is being swallowed up by cities and towns and acreages never to be farmed again. I see it in all the cities the best land and soil, being scraped off and sold. This land is usually the best in the province simply because that's where the people wanted to live, soil that took thousands of years to build, gone overnight, is that progress? And not a peep out of people, yet the present government wants to sell some bush land and turn it into productive farmland and the world is going to end? Anybody that knows what it takes to make good productive farmland out of bush land also know that the vast majority of crown land in Alberta is not conducive to farming operations to hilly, to wet, no soil etc. So for all you people worried about selling some bush land look to our heritage and you will see that's what made Alberta. Be more concerned about urban sprawl than us country people trying to make a living in trying times.

I agree with you but the scales are not the same. When you fly anywhere you can see it for yourself. In central and southern alberta, there are clusters of cities surrounded by vast areas of tilled fields, with road after road carving out 1x2 mile rectangles. That area dwarfs the land occupied by cities. But I don't disagree with your point. Deep rich soil should be treated like pure gold. And cities should build up, not out, and infill wherever they can. It is just cheaper to turn a farm into a new suburb, that is why it is done.

[bobtodrick]

Ok...first of I unequivocally do not agree with this.
But...
Although this is a heavily frequented forum we are in the minority.
Go into your kids classroom (say 30 students) and ask for a show of hands how many go camping. Maybe 4 or 5.
I work at an Edmonton business employing about 75 people.
About a dozen of us camp/hunt/fish. (not counting those that drive their big RV's to a commercial campground on the edge of town and say they are camping as they fire up the microwave and watch satellite TV)
Sad, but true.
If it happens it will because it is just not on most people radar.

[JamesB]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

For all the people stating that there is a "Ton" of crown land....

What percentage of the crown land should be sold off? 10%, 30%, 50%?

Because no matter what number you choose, eventually somebody that wants land will come along and say "ahhh come on, look at all the land over there, sell it"

I'm sure there was a lot of crown land in the USA at one point in time, there ain't now. Was there a point where people thought, "wait a minute". No, they just got to where they are, and after they realize, "wow, there isn't a lot of land left that isn't desert"

Having vast swaths of crown land is Canada. For our entire existence we could tell the world, the Europeans, Yanks, Chinese... we have this vast area of natural land that you guys lost and will never get back. It's in our friggin' DNA.

Leave it alone.

Well it depends.
First of all nobody is suggesting that all crown land be sold.
Secondly, land is generally "zoned" as to what is acceptable to do with it. So just because people like to say it will be developed, farmed or otherwise destroyed, that is not necessarily the case.
Finally someone suggested it can never be returned as crown land and that is just not true. In fact the government can appropriate land at any time, they can also tell you what you can and can not do on crown land. So suggesting that crown land offers the last chance of preserving pristine wilderness is just not true.

Also FWIW a very large percentage of land in the western US belongs to the federal government. And one of the most common complaints made is that the federal bureaucracy is slow to react, and unreasonable when it comes to access or use of the land. https://ballotpedia.org/Federal_land_ownership_by_state

[CBintheNorth]

Where's the OP been since post #13?

OP, a few questions if you don't mind...

Do you actually own that boat?

If you could be so offended by who was actually on that boat, why would you agree to blindly offer to lend it out?

Are you still fishing now? I.e. trolling...

I understand if you don't post with this account again for another couple years, so am willing to wait for the answers...

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by JamesB

Well it depends.
First of all nobody is suggesting that all crown land be sold.
Secondly, land is generally "zoned" as to what is acceptable to do with it. So just because people like to say it will be developed, farmed or otherwise destroyed, that is not necessarily the case.
Finally someone suggested it can never be returned as crown land and that is just not true. In fact the government can appropriate land at any time, they can also tell you what you can and can not do on crown land. So suggesting that crown land offers the last chance of preserving pristine wilderness is just not true.

Also FWIW a very large percentage of land in the western US belongs to the federal government. And one of the most common complaints made is that the federal bureaucracy is slow to react, and unreasonable when it comes to access or use of the land. https://ballotpedia.org/Federal_land_ownership_by_state

And a large percentage, of that large percentage in western US, is desert.

The amount of private land appropriated by the gov't is tiddly winks in the overall scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, private land stays private land. The only large chunks that revert back are given back by the owners themselves.

Again, we are talking scales here. The amount of private land that is managed for maximum wildlife and natural pristine quality is drops in the bucket compared to crown land.

Again, look at central and southern alberta from the air. Miles and miles of farm land in 1 x 2 mile blocks stretching out in all directions to the horizon. That is not to blame on the cities, and it is not pristine natural land.

Am I mad at the farmers? for **** sake, no, my family comes from farmers. I've spent hours on a combine. But the truth of it is, if you want large areas of natural area, you need to leave it alone and that will never work out if it is sold into private hands.

[Map Maker]

I’m on the no side of “sell our crown land?”

Government will always be broke, all they do is buy votes.
Once land is gone, it’s gone.

The argument on more farming is needed is false. I just read a study, said in last century, world population grew 14 fold, agriculture productivity rose 114 fold.

Plus as world gets warmer, we will naturally move north.
Plus we are lucky to have the headwaters of Canada drinking water supply.

I can’t find one good reason to sell crown land to the highest bidder.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Map Maker

The argument on more farming is needed is false. I just read a study, said in last century, world population grew 14 fold, agriculture productivity rose 114 fold.

100 years ago every family shot several moose a year and fish had no limits. Foraging off the land is difficult in downtown Edmonton or Calgary. Unless you include dumpsters.
Quite the difference a hundred years make. Lol

[mac1983]

There is prime agricultural land left in northern Alberta, make use of it. It is a totally different story than in central - southern Alberta where it was all broke up and homesteaded 100 years ago. It's not about getting out of debt, it's about expanding the agriculture sector.

[Tfng]

Mac, latitude alone makes that land marginal imo. How many frost free days up there? There’s no need to expand the land base imo.

I don’t agree with foreign ownership of any land in Canada either but that’s another thread.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Tfng

Mac, latitude alone makes that land marginal imo. How many frost free days up there? There’s no need to expand the land base imo.

I don’t agree with foreign ownership of any land in Canada either but that’s another thread.

Some of the best crops are up there. Lacrete, keg river, Manning, North peace etc.

[Tfng]

Ok. I’m way off base I guess. I’m more central and just find it hard to believe. There’s still lots of crop here that hasn’t been harvested.

[mac1983]

Yep what Moose said, i don't know the exact numbers but they have long summer days with lots of daylight and the crops grow very good up there. Just as good as here in the south peace, they seem to have a good growing climate. They supplied all the hay in gp for the horse racing etc. this summer as there was very little quality hay made here. Kind of like the last frontier for homesteading up there. Not sure about the harvest this year up there but there has been an agriculture disaster announced for the south peace by a few counties for all the crops left in the field. There is a lot of canola still out there and the moose are browsing it hardcore.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Oh.. SO the farmers up there are not allowed to grow in size? What about the kids up there? Can they never own a farm as well?

Jesus, make this land work. The Deer/Elk/Moose/Bears will thank you for it.

And yet there are those that whine and cry about lease land access for hunting, but are ok to sell crown land off. You do realize that that means less land to possibly access for recreational use. If they start by selling crown land there is nothing stopping the government from selling off lease land as well. I know a lot of ranchers that would love to buy lease land! Careful what you wish for.

[mac1983]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

And yet there are those that whine and cry about lease land access for hunting, but are ok to sell crown land off. You do realize that that means less land to possibly access for recreational use. If they start by selling crown land there is nothing stopping the government from selling off lease land as well. I know a lot of ranchers that would love to buy lease land! Careful what you wish for.

Yep, I myself am not to big on selling the lease land and green areas either. Even up here some of them think it's their own land and block access, but they are getting educated. But up north there is lot's of land suitable for homesteading that should be opened up for the betterment of us all. More land equals more opportunity. If they could open up more land for homesteading and leave the lease land alone that would be a good compromise.

[ruffy71]

How much of that land should be opened up? Can you put a percentage on it?

Because I believe it is a slippery slope. Open up a million acres, and in another 75, hundred years, a couple of generations from now, people will be saying,

"cmon give some young farmers a chance, get some more of that land into production for the betterment of us all"

What will stop us from going the way of the US and Europe, what will slack the thirst for private land 50 years from now, 100 years from now?

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

How much of that land should be opened up? Can you put a percentage on it?

Because I believe it is a slippery slope. Open up a million acres, and in another 75, hundred years, a couple of generations from now, people will be saying,

"cmon give some young farmers a chance, get some more of that land into production for the betterment of us all"

What will stop us from going the way of the US and Europe, what will slack the thirst for private land 50 years from now, 100 years from now?

Honestly it’s gonna open up anyway as populations grow universally.
The only way to stop it, and IMO save the human race, is start implementing population control.
Human race cannot keep growing.
If anything, let’s drop it by half globally.
Sounds harsh but it’s not hard for even marginally intelligent people to picture the effects of the current growth will bring. (Food shortages, disease, etc...)

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

How much of that land should be opened up? Can you put a percentage on it?

Because I believe it is a slippery slope. Open up a million acres, and in another 75, hundred years, a couple of generations from now, people will be saying,

"cmon give some young farmers a chance, get some more of that land into production for the betterment of us all"

What will stop us from going the way of the US and Europe, what will slack the thirst for private land 50 years from now, 100 years from now?

As long as the population increases and cities/towns develop farmland the cycle of loosing crown land to create more farmland will continue

The US and Europe reached the state they are in do to the population they have. With immigration and increasing population Canada will be in the same position in the future