Unpleasant time at the range

[Sitting Bull]

Well, I was at the range today hoping to have some time to work on a load I am trying to develop. The only bench available was between 2 other shooters so I set up. To my surprise both these shooters were using brakes on their rifles. I had never been that close to a braked rifle and I got to say it was not pleasant at all.
a) the noise was unbelievably loud and startling
b) the shock wave or the air that blew back and to the side was unreal.
There should be a special place for these guys to shoot.
Needless to say I shot a few rounds , confirmed zero for one group of bullets and left.
From this experience, I don't think I would consider a break.

[Twisted Canuck]

Been in that same place. Guy with a .338 WM and brake next to me actually blew stuff off his bench, and made my brass roll. I had to leave. They have put up some plexi barriers since, but I won't shoot if there are any muzzle brakes at the range. Even double plugged it's punishing. Hate them.

[Jerry D]

To bad it was unpleasant but seems the guys were at the right place on the range. Maybe the range should put brakes on the right or left etc.

[Sitting Bull]

Neither of these guys had plexiglass between. I think there should be plexiglass between every bench no matter what. Just my opinion.

[freeride]

It sucks for people to the side of a braked rifle way way more then it does for the shooter.
The concussion goes out the sides and then back, with the air blast MOSTLY missing the shooter. So don't let that part turn you off brakes.

But yes they suck for others at the range, and some common curiosity can go a long ways. Just like a guy with a sks sitting down to my left then raining hot brass on me. Or someone desciding to also use my target when I am trying different loads.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by freeride

It sucks for people to the side of a braked rifle way way more then it does for the shooter.
The concussion goes out the sides and then back, with the air blast missing the shooter. So don't let that part turn you off brakes.

But yes they suck for others at the range, and some common curiosity can go a long ways. Just like a guy with a sks sitting down to my left then raining hot brass on me. Or someone desciding to also use my target when I am trying different loads.

If the blast missed the shooter entirely, I wouldn't need both plugs and muffs to shoot my braked rifles comfortably with the brakes installed. And with the braked 50BMG that I fired, I could feel the concussive force on the left side of my body. As to idiots bouncing cases off of other shooters, we give them one warning at our range, they don't get a second warning.

[freeride]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the blast missed the shooter entirely, I wouldn't need both plugs and muffs to shoot my braked rifles comfortably with the brakes installed. And with the braked 50BMG that I fired, I could feel the concussive force on the left side of my body. As to idiots bouncing cases off of other shooters, we give them one warning at our range, they don't get a second warning.

Your right, I worded it incorrectly, I didn't mean entirely. But the air blast mostly misses the shooter, (also brake design dependent).
I had a gopro video of my old 3 gill brake and you could see the concussion come out and down and miss the shooter behind the rifle. Still a lot louder, but the MAIN air blast misses.

Just next time you shoot, shoot prone and watch the dust, its not coming up from beside your head as much as it is all around you. Its still a /\ shape with the shooter in the bottom center of the V. Or stand directly behind the shooter, vs beside. Beside sucks, you feel it in your chest.

My radial braked rifle is absurdly loud now, and I wear plugs and muffs for it. And they are for me when shooting alone.

[6MT]

Originally Posted by Sitting Bull

Well, I was at the range today hoping to have some time to work on a load I am trying to develop. The only bench available was between 2 other shooters so I set up. To my surprise both these shooters were using brakes on their rifles. I had never been that close to a braked rifle and I got to say it was not pleasant at all.
a) the noise was unbelievably loud and startling
b) the shock wave or the air that blew back and to the side was unreal.
There should be a special place for these guys to shoot.
Needless to say I shot a few rounds , confirmed zero for one group of bullets and left.
From this experience, I don't think I would consider a break.

I’ve been in this same position and situation of trying to do load tests. But I must say, I did not bother me.

I also shoot my precision rigs with brakes. Yes, I felt the concussion (all of us were prone shooting). I would just pause between my shots. It didn’t always work out, but it didn’t really upset my rhythm. The only issue was my LabRadar going off when it wasn’t me shooting.

It can be done. (And no, I’m not trying to start any arguments.)

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by freeride

Your right, I worded it incorrectly, I didn't mean entirely. But the air blast mostly misses the shooter, (also brake design dependent).
I had a gopro video of my old 3 gill brake and you could see the concussion come out and down and miss the shooter behind the rifle. Still a lot louder, but the MAIN air blast misses.

Just next time you shoot, shoot prone and watch the dust, its not coming up from beside your head as much as it is all around you. Its still a /\ shape with the shooter in the bottom center of the V. Or stand directly behind the shooter, vs beside. Beside sucks, you feel it in your chest.

My radial braked rifle is absurdly loud now, and I wear plugs and muffs for it. And they are for me when shooting alone.

I only own braked rifles, because the brakes came with them . And after I received thread protectors, the brakes came off for as long as I own those rifles. I would rather deal with a little more recoil, than the extra noise.

[EZM]

I don't enjoy the range when there a braked rifle anywhere in the shack. If you so unfortunate to be beside a braked rifle ..... well we all know how that goes and chasing the stuff rolling off the table (notebook, pen, gloves, whatever) is annoying.

I realize some people benefit from the recoil reduction on bigger cartridges, but when I see moderate to low recoil rifles braked, right or wrong, I question why. If you are shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor, or a 308 what is the benefit of a brake?

Not trying to poop on guys using a brake - I just don't understand the benefit of it as you are not going to hold a sight picture (as there is still enough recoil in those moderate cartridges) and the noise is shockingly loud and could be a hazard to you (and others). So why?

[270person]

Almost lost my temper with a jerk on Med Hat range the other day. Apparently he's well known for doing whatever he pleases on this range and the only reason I didn't take him on verbally was I was guesting..

I'm 4th bench in from the left side working with my 7's. In comes donkey boy and where does he set up with his braked, ugly pos? Bench immediately to my left. Not 2 benches or 3 benches left. Right beside me. With his spotter on the bench to HIS left...where HE should have been perched.

Amazing how quickly you can annoy a range slob beside you though. Once I figured out his shot cadence I started timing my shots to coincide with a split second before most of his trigger pulls to throw him off his game. Wasnt even concentrating on my targets. Sorry dude but I really did enjoy watching your cheezy Wyatt Earp mustache curl after the 4th, along with your early departure a few shots later. We could have played the game all afternoon. I had a pile of loads and plenty of rifles to work with. Was just about to move to the table on your left after you put your spotter away. I've got beauty electors on the one 7 and could have bounced a few off your noggin from 4 feet with a little practice.

[Mateo]

Originally Posted by 270person

Almost lost my temper with a jerk on Med Hat range the other day. Apparently he's well known for doing whatever he pleases on this range and the only reason I didn't take him on verbally was I was guesting..

I'm 4th bench in from the left side working with my 7's. In comes donkey boy and where does he set up with his braked, ugly pos? Bench immediately to my left. Not 2 benches or 3 benches left. Right beside me. With his spotter on the bench to HIS left...where HE should have been perched.

Amazing how quickly you can annoy a range slob beside you though. Once I figured out his shot cadence I started timing my shots to coincide with a split second before most of his trigger pulls to throw him off his game. Wasnt even concentrating on my targets. Sorry dude but I really did enjoy watching your cheezy Wyatt Earp mustache curl after the 4th, along with your early departure a few shots later. We could have played the game all afternoon. I had a pile of loads and plenty of rifles to work with. Was just about to move to the table on your left after you put your spotter away. I've got beauty electors on the one 7 and could have bounced a few off your noggin from 4 feet with a little practice.

you both deserve each other

[sns2]

Braked rifles made me give up my range memberships. More often than not, I had to deal with them, and it took any fun/unwinding out of my trip to the range. I too have had many encounters with guys plunking down next to me, as well as SKS shooters raining brass on me.

I understand brakes, and don’t begrudge people using them, but the onus should be on them to be respectful of others, not vice versa. I strongly feel ranges should have designated benches for braked rifles. You only have one set of hearing.

[Jims83cj5]

Originally Posted by 270person

Almost lost my temper with a jerk on Med Hat range the other day. Apparently he's well known for doing whatever he pleases on this range and the only reason I didn't take him on verbally was I was guesting..

I'm 4th bench in from the left side working with my 7's. In comes donkey boy and where does he set up with his braked, ugly pos? Bench immediately to my left. Not 2 benches or 3 benches left. Right beside me. With his spotter on the bench to HIS left...where HE should have been perched.

Amazing how quickly you can annoy a range slob beside you though. Once I figured out his shot cadence I started timing my shots to coincide with a split second before most of his trigger pulls to throw him off his game. Wasnt even concentrating on my targets. Sorry dude but I really did enjoy watching your cheezy Wyatt Earp mustache curl after the 4th, along with your early departure a few shots later. We could have played the game all afternoon. I had a pile of loads and plenty of rifles to work with. Was just about to move to the table on your left after you put your spotter away. I've got beauty electors on the one 7 and could have bounced a few off your noggin from 4 feet with a little practice.

So he is a paid member, you are not yet you admit messing him up, and your the one who is mad, right there is what’s wrong with the world. He had more right to be there than you did.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by sns2

Braked rifles made me give up my range memberships. More often than not, I had to deal with them, and it took any fun/unwinding out of my trip to the range. I too have had many encounters with guys plunking down next to me, as well as SKS shooters raining brass on me.

I understand brakes, and don’t begrudge people using them, but the onus should be on them to be respectful of others, not vice versa. I strongly feel ranges should have designated benches for braked rifles. You only have one set of hearing.

Our range policy is that nobody is allowed to interfere with other members. It's up to you to control where you eject your cases, and if your muzzle blast is moving something on the next bench, due to a brake, it's up to you to move, or wait until the other person is done. We don't put up with a lot of the nonsense that is tolerated at other ranges, we typically give offenders one warning, and repeat offenders will be looking for another range to shoot at.

[270person]

Originally Posted by Mateo

you both deserve each other

Obviously unlike you I dont tolerate entitled jerks like this one, well known to "do whatever he wants to do" according to other members at this range at the time. That doesn't work for me anywhere in life's goings on.

I'm the most courteous person you could likely meet...to courteous people. Break that rule and I push back. Every single time. Unfortunate that some have had to sacrifice their own enjoyment because of people like this one.

I'm not anti brake. Just practice being courteous when using one and keep your distance from other shooters whenever possible. In this case there were lots of other benches open other than the one right beside me and I was in place shooting 30 minutes before donkey boy showed up.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Our range policy is that nobody is allowed to interfere with other members. It's up to you to control where you eject your cases, and if your muzzle blast is moving something on the next bench, due to a brake, it's up to you to move, or wait until the other person is done. We don't put up with a lot of the nonsense that is tolerated at other ranges, we typically give offenders one warning, and repeat offenders will be looking for another range to shoot at.

I would think that is standard at every range, but it is nebulous, and as open to the interpretation of the guy plunking himself down next to another with his braked big bad hoochie mama rifle, as the guy who has had his day ruined.

I will say it again, it is very easy to avoid this. Designate a few benches as braked rifle benches. Then they have to sit at those benches, and if the only bench open is the one next to them, then I guess you wait. That is the ONLY thing that would avoid the guy sitting down next to you with his braked rifle when there are other benches open. It is quite simple. As it is, all your rule does is leave it open to interpretation, and pizzing matches on the line. And yes, I have seen them.

[270person]

Originally Posted by Jims83cj5

So he is a paid member, you are not yet you admit messing him up, and your the one who is mad, right there is what’s wrong with the world. He had more right to be there than you did.

He had more right to be at the range yep. Not to be a
jerk but, I paid to be there too. He didn't have the right to do what he did. Had 4 other benches he could have used where he wouldn't have bothered anyone. Thats what courteous ppl would have done. At my range he would have been asked/told to move since he was last to show.

Think of it as the highway. Truckers pay more than I do to drive them. Doesn't give them the right to throw common sense and courtesy out the window. Besides, I didn't do anything wrong and didn't have to get into a verbal confrontation. No rules against touching off a shot just prior to others doing so. He obviously lacked concentration powers.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Our range policy is that nobody is allowed to interfere with other members. It's up to you to control where you eject your cases, and if your muzzle blast is moving something on the next bench, due to a brake, it's up to you to move, or wait until the other person is done. We don't put up with a lot of the nonsense that is tolerated at other ranges, we typically give offenders one warning, and repeat offenders will be looking for another range to shoot at.

yup one warning and after that your out....its amazing when one jerk shows up but throw in a mixture of jerks and it turns into little kids in a school yard.

those breaks have a purpose for the shooter but man ya gotta think about others if near is all....not really hard to do.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by sns2

I would think that is standard at every range, but it is nebulous, and as open to the interpretation of the guy plunking himself down next to another with his braked big bad hoochie mama rifle, as the guy who has had his day ruined.

I will say it again, it is very easy to avoid this. Designate a few benches as braked rifle benches. Then they have to sit at those benches, and if the only bench open is the one next to them, then I guess you wait. That is the ONLY thing that would avoid the guy sitting down next to you with his braked rifle when there are other benches open. It is quite simple. As it is, all your rule does is leave it open to interpretation, and pizzing matches on the line. And yes, I have seen them.

there really is ONLY one thing to do to avoid jerks is they are tossed immediately after one warning and one warning only.
I hear ya about setting up ranges to accommodate all types of shooters but some just never get it and will do as they wish...sad but true.

[Smoky buck]

So did anyone go up to any of these people and try to respectfully explain your issues in hopes of working out a solution? If the person is a jerk after attempting this go ahead be chocked and do as you need to after this

The problem with most issues theses days people don’t even attempt to work out the situation. Instead they grumble to themselves, complain to others later or post it on the internet. None of these options solve anything. Some people are just disrespectful but others are actually oblivious that they are causing others grief because no one speaks up.

Speak up without being a jerk and see where it goes. You might find a reasonable compromise. If not you will know the guy is a jerk. You can then blow off some steam and make sure he knows he is an idiot at least

People seem to have forgotten how to work out their issues

[Jims83cj5]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

So did anyone go up to any of these people and try to respectfully explain your issues in hopes of working out a solution? If the person is a jerk after attempting this go ahead be chocked and do as you need to after this

The problem with most issues theses days people don’t even attempt to work out the situation. Instead they grumble to themselves, complain to others later or post it on the internet. None of these options solve anything. Some people are just disrespectful but others are actually oblivious that they are causing others grief because no one speaks up.

Speak up without being a jerk and see where it goes. You might find a reasonable compromise. If not you will know the guy is a jerk. You can then blow off some steam and make sure he knows he is an idiot at least

People seem to have forgotten how to work out their issues

Well said

[Jims83cj5]

Originally Posted by 270person

He had more right to be at the range yep. Not to be a
jerk but, I paid to be there too. He didn't have the right to do what he did. Had 4 other benches he could have used where he wouldn't have bothered anyone. Thats what courteous ppl would have done. At my range he would have been asked/told to move since he was last to show.

Think of it as the highway. Truckers pay more than I do to drive them. Doesn't give them the right to throw common sense and courtesy out the window. Besides, I didn't do anything wrong and didn't have to get into a verbal confrontation. No rules against touching off a shot just prior to others doing so. He obviously lacked concentration powers.

I’ll say this then I’m done with it, you said you did it on purpose to watch his moustache twitch, I would say this guy did not realize his noise offended you or was leaving space for groups to come after him, you did not talk to him because you didn’t want a confrontation, then don’t talk to him in a way that would cause one, you were a guest and purposefully did something to aggravate a member, you don’t know if he had disregard for you as you did not ask him, as a guest maybe you could of moved if you are scared to talk to people. I don’t care if you were there first or not, talk to the guy with respect or move if your scared that you can’t do that without having an argument. Unless the club says no brakes then he has every right to use one whenever wherever he wants.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

So did anyone go up to any of these people and try to respectfully explain your issues in hopes of working out a solution? If the person is a jerk after attempting this go ahead be chocked and do as you need to after this

The problem with most issues theses days people don’t even attempt to work out the situation. Instead they grumble to themselves, complain to others later or post it on the internet. None of these options solve anything. Some people are just disrespectful but others are actually oblivious that they are causing others grief because no one speaks up.

Speak up without being a jerk and see where it goes. You might find a reasonable compromise. If not you will know the guy is a jerk. You can then blow off some steam and make sure he knows he is an idiot at least

People seem to have forgotten how to work out their issues

true...engage and have an adult conversation and maybe point out the range rules if they are in violation....if the range rules don't apply to them as in nothing saying anything about rifle breaks and usage then you have choices to make stay and go through the shock wave therapy or leave and bring it up to the range managers that there could be a better way to accommodate all shooters and minor adjustments can/should be done to do so but we have all run into the entitled jerk(s) and they need to be removed so respectful people can enjoy a day at the range.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

So did anyone go up to any of these people and try to respectfully explain your issues in hopes of working out a solution? If the person is a jerk after attempting this go ahead be chocked and do as you need to after this

The problem with most issues theses days people don’t even attempt to work out the situation. Instead they grumble to themselves, complain to others later or post it on the internet. None of these options solve anything. Some people are just disrespectful but others are actually oblivious that they are causing others grief because no one speaks up.

Speak up without being a jerk and see where it goes. You might find a reasonable compromise. If not you will know the guy is a jerk. You can then blow off some steam and make sure he knows he is an idiot at least

People seem to have forgotten how to work out their issues

The fact is, that every member has the right to intervene, if a violation of the range rules occurs, but many people are too intimidated to approach other people that they don't know at a range. Even some executives of the ranges are hesitant to approach offenders, unless it is a blatant safety violation that requires immediate attention. The result is that some people get used to doing what they want, until the executive receives complaints, and has to act to resolve the situation. Then the executive has to review video, and speak with witnesses, and follow up from there, all of which takes up time, that is limited for most range volunteers. Our club is relatively small, less than 1000 members, so complaints are not all that common, in fact most violations are actually observed by executive members while present to shoot, or to do range maintenance. But we do act on all violations we are aware of in a timely manner, usually with an explanation of the range rules, and a warning if deemed necessary. And that applies to all members including law enforcement and even executive members. We even had to remove a range officer a few years ago, because of his behavior towards other members, and because he was making up his own range rules. And for serious or repeat violations, we aren't going to deal with the offenders again, their membership will be revoked, and if they enter our facility again, they are considered trespassers.

[Jims83cj5]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The fact is, that every member has the right to intervene, if a violation of the range rules occurs, but many people are too intimidated to approach other people that they don't know at a range. Even some executives of the ranges are hesitant to approach offenders, unless it is a blatant safety violation that requires immediate attention. The result is that some people get used to doing what they want, until the executive receives complaints, and has to act to resolve the situation. Then the executive has to review video, and speak with witnesses, and follow up from there, all of which takes up time, that is limited for most range volunteers. Our club is relatively small, less than 1000 members, so complaints are not all that common, in fact most violations are actually observed by executive members while present to shoot, or to do range maintenance. But we do act on all violations we are aware of in a timely manner, usually with an explanation of the range rules, and a warning if deemed necessary. And that applies to all members including law enforcement and even executive members. We even had to remove a range officer a few years ago, because of his behavior towards other members, and because he was making up his own range rules. And for serious or repeat violations, we aren't going to deal with the offenders again, their membership will be revoked, and if they enter our facility again, they are considered trespassers.

That’s a lovely infomercial elk but what’s it got to do with this post? If there is a rule about brake use in the club then certainly there is relevance but that has never been mentioned here. Are their unofficial rules being broken here? Are there such things? No where is there any mention of rules being broken. People are just whining about others using brakes. If there are rules against brakes then yes intervene if not then come to any range prepared to have a brake being used beside you.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The fact is, that every member has the right to intervene, if a violation of the range rules occurs, but many people are too intimidated to approach other people that they don't know at a range. Even some executives of the ranges are hesitant to approach offenders, unless it is a blatant safety violation that requires immediate attention. The result is that some people get used to doing what they want, until the executive receives complaints, and has to act to resolve the situation. Then the executive has to review video, and speak with witnesses, and follow up from there, all of which takes up time, that is limited for most range volunteers. Our club is relatively small, less than 1000 members, so complaints are not all that common, in fact most violations are actually observed by executive members while present to shoot, or to do range maintenance. But we do act on all violations we are aware of in a timely manner, usually with an explanation of the range rules, and a warning if deemed necessary. And that applies to all members including law enforcement and even executive members. We even had to remove a range officer a few years ago, because of his behavior towards other members, and because he was making up his own range rules. And for serious or repeat violations, we aren't going to deal with the offenders again, their membership will be revoked, and if they enter our facility again, they are considered trespassers.

It sounds like your club is doing what they can to manage the range properly but they also need to be notified by the members regarding issues to do so

As for people being intimidated I may never understand this because I was raised to deal with my issues if I want to see them change. 9 times out of 10 things are sorted out without any confrontation as long as you approach things with a reasonable attitude so I don’t see the need for feeling intimidated either

Maybe I just have a different mind set then most but I don’t get those that are bothered by others and don’t try to sort it out

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Jims83cj5

That’s a lovely infomercial elk but what’s it got to do with this post? If there is a rule about brake use in the club then certainly there is relevance but that has never been mentioned here. Are their unofficial rules being broken here? Are there such things? No where is there any mention of rules being broken. People are just whining about others using brakes. If there are rules against brakes then yes intervene if not then come to any range prepared to have a brake being used beside you.

We don't have a specific rule banning brakes, what we do have in our rules, is that if you interfere with other members, it is considered a violation of the rules. In other words, if your brake causes a blast that knocks items off of the bench next to you, you are interfering with other members. If your ejected cases, strike other members, you are interfering with other members. So basically use you are free to use your braked rifle at our range UNLESS it interferes with another member.

[Jims83cj5]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

We don't have a specific rule banning brakes, what we do have in our rules, is that if you interfere with other members, it is considered a violation of the rules. In other words, if your brake causes a blast that knocks items off of the bench next to you, you are interfering with other members. If your ejected cases, strike other members, you are interfering with other members. So basically use you are free to use your braked rifle at our range UNLESS it interferes with another member.

What if the smell of your coffee bothers someone or the colour of their clothing? If brakes are allowed then come to the range expecting brakes to be used, hot brass flying around is a safety issue not a “your bothering me” issue.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Jims83cj5

What if the smell of your coffee bothers someone or the colour of their clothing? If brakes are allowed then come to the range expecting brakes to be used, hot brass flying around is a safety issue not a “your bothering me” issue.

A person expects extra noise from brakes, but the fact is, that if the blast is knocking items off of other benches, then you are interfering with other members, and if they complain, it will be dealt with. If they don't complain, or if they decide to time their shots to match your own, as mentioned by another poster, no big deal, it's just noise, and you expect noise at a range.