What a Mess

[pikergolf]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iraq-la...says-1.3085549

[Selkirk]

If the Iraqis would fight like the Kurds, that ^ wouldn't have happened!

Mac

[Redfrog]

Read the article twice, looking for a surprise. Could not find one.

[harmagedon]

He who fight and run away lives to fight another day.. Sadly they left there weapons behind..

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by harmagedon

He who fight and run away lives to fight another day.. Sadly they left there weapons behind..

He who fights and runs away, Lives to run away another day.

[rugatika]

Iraq is doing for France what Obama did for Carter.

[masalma]

So they are sending them anti-tank missiles to destroy the tanks they gave them and they left behind? Wow

[harmagedon]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

He who fights and runs away, Lives to run away another day.

Is that so?

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by harmagedon

Is that so?

Can you refute the logic of Red's statement? If you cannot, it's best to not use the slap across the face smiley.

[harmagedon]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

He who fights and runs away, Lives to run away another day.

Is that so?

[Grizzly Adams]

Third world rule of thumb, when it comes to Combat. Better for Americans die, than us.

Grizz

[bison]

Obama is smiling, everything is going as planned

[silverdoctor]

Say the people sitting safely in their homes on Canadian soil. 2 US invasions, civil wars, Isis...

Try living thru it, then see if you're still willin to fight. Couldn't imagine livin in a War zone.

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by bison

Obama is smiling, everything is going as planned

You've read the Yinon plan as well?

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Say the people sitting safely in their homes on Canadian soil. 2 US invasions, civil wars, Isis...

Try living thru it, then see if you're still willin to fight. Couldn't imagine livin in a War zone.

isn't that the truth.

but then again i guess it's not our women and children getting sold as sex slaves or our neighbors getting slaughtered for their religious beliefs

[Fisherpeak]

Originally Posted by harmagedon

He who fight and run away lives to fight another day.. Sadly they left there weapons behind..

Come on, who leaves a perfectly good tank behind? I`d fight my self out, I HATE walking. They need some good old fashioned country boys on their side.
ISIS will rule the middle east very soon. That whole place has been a disaster for 2000 years.Should just high fence it and let `em go crazy. Nuke the winners. And don`t send any of our good men and women over to fix the unfixable mess. And pull the passports of any teen age idiots that go over there.Leave and never get to come back. Aperantly Alberta has a high recruitment for ISIS. You gotta take them hunting and fishing more. Lose the laptops, buy a quad.

[ctd]

If your country has no will to fight then we should have no will to assist them.
We should bomb every tank, truck, weapons cash we gave them. Then pull out of the country. If they want to defend themselves they will. What we have seen over the past few years is a slap in the face to the Western World.

I have always said, if you attack my country, I will defend it.
Right now I feel the will of the City people in Iraq is faded. They do not care to protect themselves. Yet they have no issues with bullying those who cannot help themselves. Or allowing Western Troops to defend them.

The big question is when is enough enough. Some of the Top War planners said if the Iraqi will to fight dies, so does the war. Yet we have bread within ourselves a War fighting mentality for the past 15 years that says we need to be there and we need to kill the enemy.
All is lost if the will of the people is gone. I fear the will is not there, I doubt it was ever fully there.

Right now we need to recruit who wants to fight, (the traditionally oppressed) train them, arm them and support them. We need to be careful with how we arm them. If they have the will to defend themselves then we need to help them. If they want to lay down their arms and walk away, we need to walk away.

When you look at how much the Saudi and area is building up their forces, one has to wonder how much of this is orchestrated or what do they know we don't?

Right now Western Civilization is reacting based on pictures of starving women and children who are being forced from the homes. What we need to be basing our support on is the possibility of helping them to rebuild their country to where they can live safe.
Fighting a war based on emotion is a failure, fighting it based on facts of what can and cant be done is the right way.
As Kenny Rogers said, "know when to hold them, know when to walk away".

Military we need to know when we have accomplished our mission, and those we are supporting need to know when we have accomplished our mission.

Promising to be their until the enemy is wiped out is a false promise and will never happen. Militarily that is a failure form the Line of Departure.

How do we fix the problem? We don't, the locals need to fix the problem, we need to choose if we can or will support them.

[score]

^ The Iraqis are unable to fight ISIS. They are afraid and incapable and no match no matter how much training or weapons they acquire. At best some would be supplemental to allied forces. What is lacking is the will of the free world and Arab nations. The absolute failure of Obama's foreign policy is playing out. Though much more complex, if the Iraqi military were to have any chance at all, they need special ops and forward operators along with close air support.

As well, the Kurds/Peshmerga (our second best ally in the ME) have been begging for support, aid and weapons for a long time to no avail. They are good and willing combatants.

Iran is and will happily fill the void in Iraq.

This mess is totally on the Obama administration. But the rest of the world watches and does nothing. It's a shameful disgrace. Very sad indeed.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by ctd

If your country has no will to fight then we should have no will to assist them.

Wow, Western imperialism created this mess - and many others. But the west shouldn't help clean up the mess they made?

Trying to wrap my head around this...

[qwert]

Originally Posted by wild&free

you've read the yinon plan as well?

bingo

[ctd]

I am not sure how you assume the Iraqis are incapable of fighting ISIS.
ISIS is made up of some of the most organized well trained higher Echelon the Middle East has seen in years. They came from their own Countries. To whom they are attacking. They have the ability to be well trained they choose not to.

The once mighty Iraqi Army can fight back but they choose not to. Simple as that. What they need is the will to defend their land. They have non.

Kurds/Peshmerga have been armed time and time again. They are great fighters but they are loyal to themselves. That creates a internal power struggle. That many are not willing to support now a days due to fighting a war based on emotions not facts.

We do have close air support, we do have special operators working alongside these forces.
Wars are not won by airpower and special operations units alone. They are won by soldiers on the ground supported in a all arms combined battle.

The Iraqi Army along with the Kurds/Peshmerga have the ability to provide the ground troops needed. We have the remainder of the combined arms to support their effort.
But without the Iraqi Army supporting the Battle 100% we can not succeed in providing the support needed.

"Western imperialism created this mess"
this mess was there long before the west was even known about. We tried to help over the past few decades to no avail.

If the will of the people is not there the fight is lost.

We could send in 100,000 Special Operations soldiers, 1000 Front line support aircraft and arm the living death out of the Kurds/Peshmerga, but they still need the support of the Iraqi Army to win the war. Then continue to retain control in the future.

All that will happen in the above instance without the Iraqi Army doing their part is we will eliminate and secure objectives. Things will calm down, when we leave someone else will take over. we will back at square one again.

The will of the people needs to be there before we will ever succeed in helping the, secure their country.

[bison]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Wow, Western imperialism created this mess - and many others. But the west shouldn't help clean up the mess they made?

Trying to wrap my head around this...

Nope.
Islam has created that mess as it has created countless messes since the day Moohamed invented that cult 1400 years ago.
The west should only help to get the Christians out and let them mooslims kill each other off.( i only feel sorry for the women and girls there cause it ain't their fault that their men behave like rabid dogs).
We don't need Arab oil either, so quit buying it..let them drown in it

And for Pete's sake stop importing them mooslims NOW!!

[score]

Originally Posted by ctd

I am not sure how you assume the Iraqis are incapable of fighting ISIS.
ISIS is made up of some of the most organized well trained higher Echelon the Middle East has seen in years. They came from their own Countries. To whom they are attacking. They have the ability to be well trained they choose not to.

The once mighty Iraqi Army can fight back but they choose not to. Simple as that. What they need is the will to defend their land. They have non.

Kurds/Peshmerga have been armed time and time again. They are great fighters but they are loyal to themselves. That creates a internal power struggle. That many are not willing to support now a days due to fighting a war based on emotions not facts.

We do have close air support, we do have special operators working alongside these forces.
Wars are not won by airpower and special operations units alone. They are won by soldiers on the ground supported in a all arms combined battle.

The Iraqi Army along with the Kurds/Peshmerga have the ability to provide the ground troops needed. We have the remainder of the combined arms to support their effort.
But without the Iraqi Army supporting the Battle 100% we can not succeed in providing the support needed.

No doubt it's complex with corruption, incompetence, in-fighting tribes, etc. and the list goes on and on. And while there are likely some good fighters, these guys aren't the old Republican Guard. They are volunteers and some are willing but without support cannot stand up to ISIS. It's a disorganized mess. The air campaign is extremely limited and ineffective. There is no close air support and as far as I know, no forward operators to assist and light up targets. They have no chance without help and leadership. Again, Obama's strategy is 110% useless. Contrary to typical history, I believe that the Gulf region countries are ready to provide ground troops if they felt that Obama could be relied upon for leadership. It's him and his phantom 60 country coalition's will that's lacking IMO. No doubt it's super complex and while we don't know all that's going on, on the ground and politically, we do know that the plan being employed at present isn't working. While I agree that involvement and cooperation by Iraq and neighbouring nations is crucial, no progress will be made without a firm resolve and leadership from the US and the rest of the free world to wipe these animals out and free the innocent. It's sad.
And again, Iran will fill the void and another blood bath is sure to ensue.

More has to be done to help the Kurds and I think Canada has done some good work there.
Yep it is a complicated mess and there is lots of terrible suffering going on. I'll stop there. It makes me sick to see the world watch and do nothing.

[ctd]

The West has provided air support and they have provided the Ground support required to engage targets. Just because they are not carpet bombing the area does not mean they are not supporting.

They have not passed over control of identifying and lasing targets to the people on the ground. Because they are trying to limit the collateral damage.
Keep the people from carrying out their own agendas.

Does the West want to commit ground troops. NO.
Have they committed Forward Air Controllers and Special Operation Troops? Yes.
Are they being cautious as to what where and when they bomb stuff? Yes.

Are we going to expand the commitment? I think so.

Again we Blame the US for the initial problem, then we blame them again and again, for not having the solution.
If the Middle Eastern States were actually interested in Securing Iraq for Iraqis then they would have already deployed their own troops. They don't need Leadership from President Obama to do this.

Blame the West for the problems in the Middle East. or blame the Middle East for their own problems.

[Fisherpeak]

I`m just waiting for the maniacs to take a poke at Isreal.
They don`t screw around.

[masalma]

Originally Posted by bison

And for Pete's sake stop importing them mooslims NOW!!

Hope you are aware that the first mosque built in Canada was in Edmonton, close to a 100 years ago. Muslims have been peacefully living here for a long time. And why do you feel the urge to derail every thread you come across with your stupid ignorance.

Being a racist is not a Canadian value. All are equal regardless who or what they believe in as long as they respect the laws of the land.

[score]

Originally Posted by ctd

The West has provided air support and they have provided the Ground support required to engage targets. Just because they are not carpet bombing the area does not mean they are not supporting.

They have not passed over control of identifying and lasing targets to the people on the ground. Because they are trying to limit the collateral damage.
Keep the people from carrying out their own agendas.

Does the West want to commit ground troops. NO.
Have they committed Forward Air Controllers and Special Operation Troops? Yes.
Are they being cautious as to what where and when they bomb stuff? Yes.

Are we going to expand the commitment? I think so.

Again we Blame the US for the initial problem, then we blame them again and again, for not having the solution.
If the Middle Eastern States were actually interested in Securing Iraq for Iraqis then they would have already deployed their own troops. They don't need Leadership from President Obama to do this.

Blame the West for the problems in the Middle East. or blame the Middle East for their own problems.

I think you may be misunderstanding my meaning and my opinion. I do not blame the US then or now, I wholeheartedly blame Obama and his administration and the whole of his foreign policy. I think Harper is doing fine. If anyone is providing forward ground support it's Canada as they did in Kobani.

The air campaign has been a joke and contrary to what you say you believe, there has been zero close air support for ground troops (ie Apaches, A10s, etc.) Needless to say I'm not talking about "carpet bombing" but as directed by Obama, air rules of engagement are pathetic. Again, for all intents and purposes the local ground forces are on their own apart from some rudimentary training and basic weaponry. When confronted they retreat. Ash Carter when condemning the Iraqi fighters, can say whatever he wants as a puppet for Obama. The reality is that they aren't fit to fight ISIS. They volunteer and get some training but it's either run or die in battle. More Kurdish support would be much better and although you say they are only interested in defending their territory, I think they have a vested interest in fighting ISIS wherever they are. They are willing and have been begging for help.

Overall, the West is doing the absolute minimum which is more political and ideological than an attempt to defeat these barbarians. As much as most think that the Gulf Nations should be contributing much more, history has shown that to be a pipe dream. That said however, at this point and given the circumstances, I believe they would if they could count on Obama. If we intend on waiting for the Iraqis to seriously take the initiative to take up the fight thousands more innocents will continue to be brutalize and killed.

I'm most certainly not anti-American, I'm anti-Obama, but I am equally disgusted at the rest of the free world and their lack of immediate and intense response.

Not sure if we basically agree or not but if a different strategy isn't employed immediately, we will all watch as thousands more people get savagely killed daily. I understand there is much to it and it's difficult to cover all of the aspects here. On some things we can agree to disagree.

People say Obama has no strategy in defeating Islamic terrorism. I think he does and it's playing out right now. This is what his strategy looks like. Barack Obama is the biggest problem IMO.

PS as an example, King Abdullah asked for support after the Jordanian pilot was burned to death in a cage. As far as I know, they didn't receive it.....

[SKSniper]

Originally Posted by masalma

Hope you are aware that the first mosque built in Canada was in Edmonton, close to a 100 years ago. Muslims have been peacefully living here for a long time. And why do you feel the urge to derail every thread you come across with your stupid ignorance.

Being a racist is not a Canadian value. All are equal regardless who or what they believe in as long as they respect the laws of the land.

Don't waste your time on Bison. He has lost all credentials IMO because every post I read of his is the same ignorant bashing of Muslims.

[HowSwedeItIs]

Blaming 'western imperialism' for all of the middle east's problems is a cop out. Everybody wants a simple explanation for a very complicated problem.

[bison]

Originally Posted by masalma

Hope you are aware that the first mosque built in Canada was in Edmonton, close to a 100 years ago. Muslims have been peacefully living here for a long time. And why do you feel the urge to derail every thread you come across with your stupid ignorance.

Being a racist is not a Canadian value. All are equal regardless who or what they believe in as long as they respect the laws of the land.

The Muslims that immigrated back then were secular Muslims with a different mindset than the ones that come these days.
A couple hundred Muslims don't make problems,..when it becomes a couple million things change drastically, look in Europe.(people unwittingly introduced the Europian Starling in North America as well without realizing what problems it would cause later)
I ain't derailing nothing, you just can't stand it that i don't like Islam and have the nerve to speak out against it
it is you who is the willful ignorant one when it comes to Islam and not me.

Since when is a " religion" a ...race??. As you know fully well, A Muslim is a person that practices Islam and that has nothing to do with race
I have nothing against an Iranian a turk a paki Iraqi Lebanese or whatever country of origin as long as they ain't Muslim.
True Muslims don't recognize the laws of the donor country, that is why they keeps pushing for Islamic sharia law to be implemented wherever in the world they go.