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  #121  
Old 04-07-2015, 02:01 AM
sikwhiskey sikwhiskey is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
There is more than one version of the C-8.Thankfully, the police get a semi auto version.

From that same Coltcanada site.
Doesn't really matter to me, only gripe I have is the regular joe would have his RPAL disappear as well as the rest of his restricted, registered guns.
Full auto is next to useless, unless suppressing Fire needs to be laid down. A gun is a gun is a gun, regardless..,AR's should be none restricted.
It's nieve to think FA's are oh so much more dangerous than grandpa's sniper rifle, they are not.
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  #122  
Old 04-07-2015, 05:11 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by sikwhiskey View Post
Doesn't really matter to me, only gripe I have is the regular joe would have his RPAL disappear as well as the rest of his restricted, registered guns.
Full auto is next to useless, unless suppressing Fire needs to be laid down. A gun is a gun is a gun, regardless..,AR's should be none restricted.
It's nieve to think FA's are oh so much more dangerous than grandpa's sniper rifle, they are not.
Even though full auto is useless in most situations, that would not stop some officers from panicking and resorting to a spray and pray mentality, when they get into a pressure situation. I believe that it is safer for the public, if they don't have that option.
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  #123  
Old 04-07-2015, 07:34 AM
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I wonder how many drinks he was planning / did have at that bar and grill ? Cops, Drinking and driveing !
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  #124  
Old 04-07-2015, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by sikwhiskey View Post
Doesn't really matter to me, only gripe I have is the regular joe would have his RPAL disappear as well as the rest of his restricted, registered guns.
.
Really? Do we even know if this guy breached any firearms regulations? I posted them a page back. Which provisions do we know he violated?
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  #125  
Old 04-07-2015, 08:52 AM
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Really? Do we even know if this guy breached any firearms regulations? I posted them a page back. Which provisions do we know he violated?
If I reported that I had a restricted rifle stolen from my vehicle that was parked outside of an "eatery" at midnight.....I would definitely have some explaining to do
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  #126  
Old 04-07-2015, 08:55 AM
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If I reported that I had a restricted rifle stolen from my vehicle that was parked outside of an "eatery" at midnight.....I would definitely have some explaining to do
What part of the regulation do we know that he violated? What part of the law would you have violated? Lot of people throwing around "If I had done that I would have been charged". Having a gun stolen in transport is not in itself a crime.
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  #127  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:01 AM
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Here's the skinny,

The arguement or case will be based on 1 major factor, "Was the Officer in possession of the firearm as a part of his normal duties?"

So, are the CPS Members authorized to take home their service firearms to practice with them and clean them? Was it common knowledge that they could or couldn't. Is there specific CPS regulations forbidding the Members from taking their Carbines home for cleaning or practice?

If the Member argues that he considered himself on duty when transporting the Carbine home because his intentions were to complete work related duties such as cleaning, then they may find in favor of the the Officer. If so, there will be no criminal charges in relation to the regulations as Peace Officers on duty are exempt from all firearms act regulations. That is why they can possess a firearm without a PAL, open carry without a permit, discharge in a prohibited location, and leave a loaded shotgun in an unattended vehicle.

But, if he is found to be on duty they could still consider a "Careless Use" charge if the circumstances warrant it.

Regardless, if he is cleared of Criminal Code charges the Officer we still be subject to internal discipline for failing to secure the carbine case with the locking cabel. NOTE: This securing with a cable is internal CPS policy only as it is not required under the Fireram Act.


Now, if CPS rules that he was not on duty then the file will most likely be forwarded to crown for charges which could included:

Careless Use
Unsafe Transport
Unathorized Possession
Unauthorized Possession in a Motor Vehicle
Unathorized Possession of Restricted Firearm with Ammunition. (3 year minimum)

But, given recent case law out of Ontario where it was ruled that a Peace Officer does not lose there Peace Officer status by merely going "off duty" it may be difficult to convict the Member on any Criminal Code charges other then the Careless Use.

I am actual shocked by the article that the Supervisor came straight out and said that termination of employment was a possibility.

One thing for sure, if CPS did not have policy in place prior, it is being written as we speak.
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  #128  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post
Is there specific CPS regulations forbidding the Members from taking their Carbines home for cleaning or practice?

That is what I found a little odd with the Police press conference and various statements made by the service. Official said things like "We don't do that", "That's not our practice", "Those guns are left in locked areas at the offices". But what was never said, as far as I can see, is anything like "He broke regulation X which states...". IF they have a regulation or policy one would think they would mention or quote it.
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  #129  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
That is what I found a little odd with the Police press conference and various statements made by the service. Official said things like "We don't do that", "That's not our practice", "Those guns are left in locked areas at the offices". But what was never said, as far as I can see, is anything like "He broke regulation X which states...". IF they have a regulation or policy one would think they would mention or quote it.
But at the press conference he did state it was common to take side arms home, especially if you had court the next day.

But the failure to reference any policy was very odd.

Last edited by riden; 04-07-2015 at 09:20 AM.
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  #130  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:09 AM
silverdoctor silverdoctor is offline
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Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post
I am actual shocked by the article that the Supervisor came straight out and said that termination of employment was a possibility.
Did you watch the video of the news conference? He said a few things that he'll chew on for a while.


Chances are he left it in the back seat, someone seen a hard case and grabbed it probably without knowing what was in it. I figure someone either said "oh crap" or "oh yeah!" when they opened it.

No other cars in the area were targeted as far as we know.


I suspect there is more to the story, the Sup was pretty upset.
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  #131  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by silverdoctor View Post
Did you watch the video of the news conference? He said a few things that he'll chew on for a while.


Chances are he left it in the back seat, someone seen a hard case and grabbed it probably without knowing what was in it. I figure someone either said "oh crap" or "oh yeah!" when they opened it.

No other cars in the area were targeted as far as we know.


I suspect there is more to the story, the Sup was pretty upset.
This is a more realistic scenario as compared to vehicle targeted by organized crime or a shady inside deal.
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  #132  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Even though full auto is useless in most situations, that would not stop some officers from panicking and resorting to a spray and pray mentality, when they get into a pressure situation. I believe that it is safer for the public, if they don't have that option.
I can't believe they're issued more than one cartrdige for any of their weapons.
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  #133  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:39 AM
Horse96 Horse96 is offline
 
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Police Officers have a tough job. Did he screw up? Yes. Is he owning it? It looks as though the answer is yes. Integrity for Police is everything. They are people too.

But were it me that left a restricted unattended I would have the book thrown at me. They are to be transported straight to and from the range. No stopping.
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  #134  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Horse96 View Post
Police Officers have a tough job. Did he screw up? Yes. Is he owning it? It looks as though the answer is yes. Integrity for Police is everything. They are people too.

But were it me that left a restricted unattended I would have the book thrown at me. They are to be transported straight to and from the range. No stopping.
Not true.

The law clearly indicates what steps to take when leaving a restricted in an unattended vehicle.
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  #135  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
What part of the regulation do we know that he violated? What part of the law would you have violated? Lot of people throwing around "If I had done that I would have been charged". Having a gun stolen in transport is not in itself a crime.
[QUOTE=Horse96;2792810]Police Officers have a tough job. Did he screw up? Yes. Is he owning it? It looks as though the answer is yes. Integrity for Police is everything. They are people too.

But were it me that left a restricted unattended I would have the book thrown at me. They are to be transported straight to and from the range. No stopping.[/QUOTE]

This !
At a Pub yet, not a seven eleven for 2 mins.

Who knows ? Maybe he ****ed some other members off and they took it to get him in trouble. We need all the facts.
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  #136  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:52 AM
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[QUOTE=Kim473;2792823]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horse96 View Post
Police Officers have a tough job. Did he screw up? Yes. Is he owning it? It looks as though the answer is yes. Integrity for Police is everything. They are people too.

But were it me that left a restricted unattended I would have the book thrown at me. They are to be transported straight to and from the range. No stopping.[/QUOTE]

This !
At a Pub yet, not a seven eleven for 2 mins.

Who knows ? Maybe he ****ed some other members off and they took it to get him in trouble. We need all the facts.
TRANSPORTATION OF RESTRICTED FIREARMS

11. An individual may transport a restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device;

(c) it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation; and

(d) if it is in a container described in paragraph (c) that is in an unattended vehicle,

(i) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the container is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked, and

(ii) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the vehicle, or the part of the vehicle that contains the container, is securely locked and the container is not visible from outside the vehicle.



Not everyone's ATT is to travel from ONE range to home. How do people compete in handgun matches outside their home town if that is what the law says?
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  #137  
Old 04-07-2015, 09:57 AM
silverdoctor silverdoctor is offline
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[QUOTE=riden;2792832]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim473 View Post
TRANSPORTATION OF RESTRICTED FIREARMS

11. An individual may transport a restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device;

(c) it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation; and

(d) if it is in a container described in paragraph (c) that is in an unattended vehicle,

(i) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the container is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked, and

(ii) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the vehicle, or the part of the vehicle that contains the container, is securely locked and the container is not visible from outside the vehicle.
People keep posting the legals about transport of restricted firearms. Why?

Chances are very good he simply left it in the back seat for the world to see. Hard case doesn't mean there's a firearm, many things are transported in hard cases.

The big thing here for me - he shouldn't have had it in his vehicle in the first place. This isn't a sidearm, this isn't a firearm that you'll need in court the next morning.

If you take something without permission, what is that called?

If you were to take someone else's restricted firearm, and they didn't know, you leave it in your car and it's stolen. Now what is going to happen to you?
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  #138  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:00 AM
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Well, I posted it because he claimed you cannot stop when transporting a restricted. He was the 2nd poster do due that very recently.

Clearly that is not true, or requirements for that scenario wouldn't be law.


The rest of your post is complete conjecture. You know of that to be true.
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  #139  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:00 AM
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[QUOTE=riden;2792832]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim473 View Post
TRANSPORTATION OF RESTRICTED FIREARMS

11. An individual may transport a restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device;

(c) it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation; and

(d) if it is in a container described in paragraph (c) that is in an unattended vehicle,

(i) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the container is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked, and

(ii) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the vehicle, or the part of the vehicle that contains the container, is securely locked and the container is not visible from outside the vehicle.



Not everyone's ATT is to travel from ONE range to home. How do people compete in handgun matches outside their home town if that is what the law says?
Within reason... Is it reasonable for a Calgary detachment cop to stop at a Calgary restraunt on his way to his Calgary home? Or should he have went home, secured the weapon, then proceeded to restraunt for beer and wings?
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  #140  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
What part of the regulation do we know that he violated? What part of the law would you have violated? Lot of people throwing around "If I had done that I would have been charged". Having a gun stolen in transport is not in itself a crime.
I believe that I would be in contravention of the transport laws pertaining to restricted weapons. "A to B" laws which basically state that you may take the weapon from home to the range on the most direct route.

If I stopped for gas or to pick up a buddy on the way to the range, I believe I could justify that to the officer that was questioning me. If I was at an "eatery" at midnight.....it would be a tougher sell imo. There are rules and regs that need to be followed when dealing with restricted weapons.
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  #141  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:05 AM
silverdoctor silverdoctor is offline
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The rest of your post is complete conjecture. You know of that to be true.
How is it conjecture? It's not an opinion - watch the video. Superintendent is clearly upset.

I don't know what he did to be honest. But wouldn't it make sense that the officer left the hard case in the back seat? Someone saw it, grabbed it and ran without even knowing what it was? No other cars were hit that night - so what would a reasonable person think?

He wasn't supposed to have the C8 in his possession and wasn't supposed to take it home, that has been made perfectly clear. This should not have happened.
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  #142  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:15 AM
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one question: the Restricted FA is defined for a civilian, like myself and many other users on AOF. How is AR defined for CP member? Is it still restricted?


30 rounds AR mag is prohibited (for a regular shooter), but regular for a Police member.
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  #143  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey View Post
I believe that I would be in contravention of the transport laws pertaining to restricted weapons. "A to B" laws which basically state that you may take the weapon from home to the range on the most direct route.
Again, where does it say that in the law or regulation? You are allowed to stop. I can find no reference to "most direct route" in the Firearms Act or it's regulations. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd be happy to be corrected.

Last edited by Okotokian; 04-07-2015 at 10:51 AM.
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  #144  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdoctor View Post

Chances are very good he simply left it in the back seat for the world to see.
IF that is the case, then you or I would indeed have been charged. But we don't know any of the details yet. I get concerned when I read posts by gun owners (I assume), who automatically think they would be charged if a gun was stolen from their vehicle. They quote all kinds of things they think are "rules" or "laws". I suspect many have never even browsed the Firearms act or regulations.
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  #145  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
Again, where does it say that in the law or regulation? You are allowed to stop. I can find no reference to "most direct route" in the Firearms Act or it's regulations.
This was covered in the course material when taking the rpal. It was explained very clearly in the course as to what is expected of you as an owner.

The instructor referred to them as "A-B laws" and gave us his interpretation of the rules. If you are taking said firearms to a shoot out of town or a competition then you had to inform the RCMP (we don't have local cops) of the transport. If you were moving.....you had to do this as well.

Maybe it was just the instructors interpretation of the rules?? I don't know.
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  #146  
Old 04-07-2015, 10:57 AM
silverdoctor silverdoctor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
IF that is the case, then you or I would indeed have been charged. But we don't know any of the details yet. I get concerned when I read posts by gun owners (I assume), who automatically think they would be charged if a gun was stolen from their vehicle. They quote all kinds of things they think are "rules" or "laws". I suspect many have never even browsed the Firearms act or regulations.
Fully understood, i'm amazed at how many don't know the laws.

But, if he did indeed leave the hard case in the back seat for anyone to see, then would that not be classified as unsafe storage?

His was the only car robbed, he wasn't supposed to have the bloody thing in the first place, this shouldn't have happened. If this is the case, then it's no wonder the superintendent is angry.

Now, if you have an RPAL, take someone's restricted without their knowledge, leave it in your unattended vehicle in plain view - what do you think is going to happen? If your vehicle is the only one in a full parking lot that got robbed, there will definitely be some question. And some repercussions.

Either someone knew it was there - highly unlikely - or you left it in the open.

That's the issue I have.
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  #147  
Old 04-07-2015, 11:02 AM
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[QUOTE=riden;2792832][QUOTE=Kim473;2792823]
TRANSPORTATION OF RESTRICTED FIREARMS

11. An individual may transport a restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device;

(c) it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation; and

(d) if it is in a container described in paragraph (c) that is in an unattended vehicle,

(i) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the container is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked, and

(ii) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the vehicle, or the part of the vehicle that contains the container, is securely locked and the container is not visible from outside the vehicle.



Not everyone's ATT is to travel from ONE range to home. How do people compete in handgun matches outside their home town if that is what the law says?[/QUOTE]

You can get long term ATT's and short term ATT's.

I have a long term ATT which authorizes me to travel to a range anywhere in alberta and cross the US border as long as it is done in Montana...

Key is reasonable..

Would it be considered reasonable to travel from Edmonton to Calgary to compete in a match and stay over night. Yes.

Is it reasonable to take your firearm to work, go to the range, then stop at the pub for a few wobbly pops after? More than likely not.
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  #148  
Old 04-07-2015, 11:21 AM
silverdoctor silverdoctor is offline
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Blue wall coming down? Head of the Calgary Police union doesn't like the comments from the Superintendent...

Quote:
“We look at it and say this constable had the best of intentions, he was trying to maintain his assigned rifle,” said Burns. “Yes he stopped off, he probably shouldn’t have, it was an error in judgment.
Wow...

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/04/06...ice-union-boss
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  #149  
Old 04-07-2015, 11:35 AM
riden riden is offline
 
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[QUOTE=NEWB;2792910][QUOTE=riden;2792832]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim473 View Post
TRANSPORTATION OF RESTRICTED FIREARMS

11. An individual may transport a restricted firearm only if

(a) it is unloaded;

(b) it is rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device;

(c) it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation; and

(d) if it is in a container described in paragraph (c) that is in an unattended vehicle,

(i) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the container is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked, and

(ii) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the vehicle, or the part of the vehicle that contains the container, is securely locked and the container is not visible from outside the vehicle.



Not everyone's ATT is to travel from ONE range to home. How do people compete in handgun matches outside their home town if that is what the law says?[/QUOTE]

You can get long term ATT's and short term ATT's.

I have a long term ATT which authorizes me to travel to a range anywhere in alberta and cross the US border as long as it is done in Montana...

Key is reasonable..

Would it be considered reasonable to travel from Edmonton to Calgary to compete in a match and stay over night. Yes.

Is it reasonable to take your firearm to work, go to the range, then stop at the pub for a few wobbly pops after? More than likely not.
And it wasn't that long ago you could get a long term ATT for any range in western Canada. What could possibly be the definition of direct route out of the province?

There is soooo much gray in this, that I will have to see the statues before I believe it to be law and chargeable. How could you ever enforce a law like this? I believe it if CFO policy, and we are being strong encouraged to believe it is law. We are being taught in the CRFSC to do it, but that doesn't mean it is the law. It makes no sense to me any law was written with so many holes in it.

I should add, does anyone know why he stopped? How do we know he didn't stop for take out?
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  #150  
Old 04-07-2015, 11:38 AM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
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If your focus is on the cops mistake and not the low life crook that stole the gun the you are no better than the anti gun liberals.
No wonder we have such bad gun laws in this country when some members of a forum like this can't see the root of the problem.
Well done Wendy, the idiots are following you.
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