Why the big fascination with First focal plane

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Highlander44

Mine works out to 151 fps difference between 10F and 90F- at 500 yards that 2.3 MOA or approx 11.5". I have verified this at several ranges and temperatures... What are you guys getting for temp variation? And has anyone verified this with a chrono? Maybe we should start a new thread here and not hijack this one...lol

Nope, just looked at my quikload for the lapua.
Temperatures ranged from +30 to about +5 with two different rifles.
We were never off the mark that far at 1,000.
With my irons riufles I have also never been that far off using the 155 Palma bullets in my 308's either, come to think of it.

Cat

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by Highlander44

Mine works out to 151 fps difference between 10F and 90F- at 500 yards that 2.3 MOA or approx 11.5". I have verified this at several ranges and temperatures... What are you guys getting for temp variation? And has anyone verified this with a chrono? Maybe we should start a new thread here and not hijack this one...lol

Many times with several rifles. A 100 fps difference is about the most I'll tolerate.

[Highlander44]

What powder are you using? My wife has a .308 I've set up for her shooting 175gr Sierra Matchkings. I used RL15 while I could find it, and now IMR 4064, both had minimum of 150 fps difference?? And I'm too busy to find Varget......

[Jordan Smith]

I'm using various chamberings, but some of the powders are TAC, H4350, IMR7828ssc, Varget, IMR4350, etc.

With that load you might consider CFE223, Ramshot TAC, or RS Big Game.

[Ivo]

Originally Posted by Highlander44

Ivo it sounds like you are an expert so I don't know why I have to explain??? And sorry- I'll run spell check for you next time..... My point is the when I use my mildot reticle for ranging on my 2nd focal plane scope it only accurately estimates at full magnification (or where the scope manufacturer sets it) which I only use for longer distances- so I want the magnification jacked up anyways. When using FFP scopes ( and yes I've used many) you can accurately estimate range on a known target size at any magnification setting- but the crosshairs cover more of the target ( more than a 2nd focal plane).
Don't get me wrong- I like using mildot's as a back up to a rangefinder. (I have had rangefinders fail on me also). I stated the military likes FFP as they can accurately range using any scope magnification setting- because they don't want to use LRF's for fear they will be detected-yes I know the lazer/laser (whatever) can't be seen with the human eye- there ARE detectors..... With a hunter, getting caught by the enemy isn't an issue- so is it worth having a FFP scope that is twice as much $$$- when you can just put it on full magnification and get the same results with a finer crosshair on the target. We were out doing some target practice not that long ago at 300 yards if I remember correctly at a hardball sized target and with his front focal plane vortex-I could not even see the target.
You are right evo-that is the problem with the Internet, anybody can post what they "think" they know...... instead of spending time being ignorant on Alberta outdoorsman forums maybe you should spend that time to take some marksmanship courses every year like I do- And go and practice using the mildot reticle at different ranges and at different targets.

The reticle does not cover more of the target, as the magnification is increased, the target and reticle grow in size at the same rate! So if the Gen 2 XR reticle in my Premier Reticles scope covers 0.025 mil at 5x it covers 0.025 mil at 25x. Therefore, if the target isn't covered at 5x it will not be covered at 25x either. So next time you are out using your friends Vortex take note of this!

The mildot reticle was used in service for ranging, windage, lead and recon far before laser rangefinders were issued to the foot soldier. Most military issue LRFs now are both eyesafe and not detected by other militaries equipment.

Not all reticles are created equal. Your friends EBR in the Vortex is much thicker than the S&B P4F, PR Gen 2 XR, GAP G2 and many more. Most of these reticles in fact are thinner than many SFP reticles(not the ultrafine target reticles of course). At 300m my P4F and Gen 2 XR can quarter a 1" target dot. I don't know the dimensions off hand about the EBR reticle but I would think at 300y it still shouldn't cover a baseball.

I'm not aware of a FFP scope on the market that costs twice as much as a similar SFP. In fact FFP scopes are actually cheaper to build so I don't know why they are more expensive to begin with.

So maybe instead of running your mouth you should pick up a book and learn the difference between ffp and sfp and how to use your reticle BEFORE you go to your marksmanship courses.

[Skytop B]

I have a few year old Leupold 4.5-12 with the Varmint reticle, SFP. Don't use it on any of my big rifles so decided to put it on a 10-22. Sighted in dead on at 40 yards with intentions of using the lower subtensions for hold-over. Was able to reach out to 140 yards with those. This is leaving it on 4.5x, as soon as you change magnification everything changes, what a POS, I did not know any better when I purchased this scope for a grand about five years ago. FFP all the way for me, don't have to think about which magnification setting you are on. Like I said before milling reticles in a SFP scope is a USELESS SALES GIMMICK.

[urcayuse]

image.jpguse a plumb bob and an eagles feather if it makes you happy

[Ivo]

Originally Posted by Skytop B

I have a few year old Leupold 4.5-12 with the Varmint reticle, SFP. Don't use it on any of my big rifles so decided to put it on a 10-22. Sighted in dead on at 40 yards with intentions of using the lower subtensions for hold-over. Was able to reach out to 140 yards with those. This is leaving it on 4.5x, as soon as you change magnification everything changes, what a POS, I did not know any better when I purchased this scope for a grand about five years ago. FFP all the way for me, don't have to think about which magnification setting you are on. Like I said before milling reticles in a SFP scope is a USELESS SALES GIMMICK.

FFP and SFP both have their place in shooting, it's just picking the right tool for the job is all. If I had a dedicated F class rig, I'm sure it would be wearing a SFP scope but as it is, all of my shooting is done in field conditions at different location in different weather so it's FFP for my use.

I will definitely agree though, any milling reticle or a reticle with any subtensions in SPF makes no sense but I guess if they sell, who am I to argue!

[D-Dub]

So if I'm using a 4x12x40 duplex reticle second focal plane scope and site my gun in at 2 inches high at 100 yards on say 6x. If I then go to 10x, shooting that same target at 100 yards, Will the point of impact change from where the bullet hit at 6X?

[twofifty]

They obviously sell. The counter clerk just doesn't tell the customer that the milling feature only works at a given magnification.

The customer's eyes are going ga-ga over the big textured clicking knobs and the giant objective with the sexy lens coatings. There's no time to ask about the limitations of a mil-dot reticle on a SFP scope.

[twofifty]

Originally Posted by D-Dub

So if I'm using a 4x12x40 duplex reticle second focal plane scope and site my gun in at 2 inches high at 100 yards on say 6x. If I then go to 10x, shooting that same target at 100 yards, Will the point of impact change from where the bullet hit at 6X?

No. The point of impact remains the same at all magnifications, provided the scope is of decent quality.

edit: this holds true for both SFP and FFP reticles, provided you aim with the reticle's centre point.

[Skytop B]

Well if we can save one guy from learning this the hard way, ie wasting $1K. I admit, I have only been aware of FFP scopes for the last three years or so. The amount I wasted on several cheap scopes over the last few years I could have had a S&B 5-25 paid for and just switched it between rifles. Get a good mounting system on a pic rail and a scope swap only takes a couple rounds to confirm it's on target. Keep your dope in a data book and you are good to go.

[wally338]

Originally Posted by Skytop B

Well if we can save one guy from learning this the hard way, ie wasting $1K. I admit, I have only been aware of FFP scopes for the last three years or so. The amount I wasted on several cheap scopes over the last few years I could have had a S&B 5-25 paid for and just switched it between rifles. Get a good mounting system on a pic rail and a scope swap only takes a couple rounds to confirm it's on target. Keep your dope in a data book and you are good to go.

Iam in the same boat Skytop, it's amazing how dead simple the FFP scopes are to use.

[Ivo]

Originally Posted by Skytop B

Well if we can save one guy from learning this the hard way, ie wasting $1K. I admit, I have only been aware of FFP scopes for the last three years or so. The amount I wasted on several cheap scopes over the last few years I could have had a S&B 5-25 paid for and just switched it between rifles. Get a good mounting system on a pic rail and a scope swap only takes a couple rounds to confirm it's on target. Keep your dope in a data book and you are good to go.

This is true and I only had to go through 1 Leopold MK4 6-20x50, 3 Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 and 1 Nightforce 3-15x50 to figure out that there was a better option out there for my type of shooting.. My wife was happy I figured that out before I spent too much money, LOL.

[marxman]

Originally Posted by Skytop B

? All my FFP scopes have parallax adjustment, still needs to be adjusted for different distances. (S&B / Leupold Mark IV)

thats right and theres quite a bit of hooey in this thread on both sides

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by Skytop B

? All my FFP scopes have parallax adjustment, still needs to be adjusted for different distances. (S&B / Leupold Mark IV)

I realize that. FFP scopes eliminate parallax with adjustment. Some of my SFP scopes do not entirely remove parallax error.

[Skytop B]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

I realize that. FFP scopes eliminate parallax with adjustment. Some of my SFP scopes do not entirely remove parallax error.

Sorry, misread your post, thought you were saying you don't have to adjust for parallax with a ffp scope, my mistake.

[Skytop B]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

I realize that. FFP scopes eliminate parallax with adjustment. Some of my SFP scopes do not entirely remove parallax error.

You should try one, I highly recommend the Leupold Mark 4 ERT 8.5 - 25 with TMR reticle and M5 turrets, very happy with mine and half the price of a Schmidt. I have never shot F-class but have shot 1000m plenty and you can see a 1m target clearly.

[markg]

I am seriously giving thought to having a first focal plane recticle on my next scope.

Anyone able to give some feedback on a Stiener T5xi 5x25x56 ? (its a first focal plane scope) ohh the shame after talking trash about FF planes.

Ohh well.

[Bullseyeshooter]

BDC reticle is calibrated for maximum magnifcation. For hunting you don't usually go for maximum zoom. In that case Bullet drop needs re-calibration.
When you are using a BDC reticle with a FFP scope and since the BDC reticle change with change in magnification, you do not have to correct the BDC based on the power of magnification.
Any ways there are online calculators on which you can get the bullet drops on your reticle for different magnification power

[propliner]

Originally Posted by markg

I am seriously giving thought to having a first focal plane recticle on my next scope.

Anyone able to give some feedback on a Stiener T5xi 5x25x56 ? (its a first focal plane scope) ohh the shame after talking trash about FF planes.

Ohh well.

That Steiner is a great scope with excellent reviews. If you want to save some $$ then have a look at the Burris XTR II 5-25x50 FFP with similar reticles, perfect tracking, and same parent company. The glass may not be quite as good but it's still excellent. I own one and can testify to its quality. It's the best kept secret in affordable FFP scopes IMO.

[albertabackflow]

simple easy and quick way too range and keep a consistent shot

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by albertabackflow

simple easy and quick way too range and keep a consistent shot

Provide feedback, reduced requirement for thinking, fast, always accurate, etc.

I will never own another non-FFP scope. I love my Razors.

Countless times I have seen people giving me wrong information, or them making incorrect adjustments due them not having a FFP. I can't see where they aren't better, other than maybe hunting due to needing a thick reticle for quick viewing.

[Submoa_hunter]

FFP if your shooting unknown distances. SFP if you know the distances your shooting. After lots of research finding out what I wanted I chose FFP

[hogie]

Originally Posted by twofifty

They obviously sell. The counter clerk just doesn't tell the customer that the milling feature only works at a given magnification.

The customer's eyes are going ga-ga over the big textured clicking knobs and the giant objective with the sexy lens coatings. There's no time to ask about the limitations of a mil-dot reticle on a SFP scope.

Depends on the scope. You have to some research on which scope you are buying. Not all sfp are set up for highest magnification. The Bushnell Elite 4500 6x24 is set for 12 power to be accurate for one mil. When you go to full power your one mil in the reticle becomes .5 mil. 6x goes to two mil. It uses a traditional mil dot reticle.

I have a Nightforce 5.5x22 with MLR reticle. It has .5 mil marks. When I go to 11x my .5 mark turns to 1mil. They have the 11x settings marked on the ring for that purpose.

This would apply to any sfp scope with a mil reticle. Easy to figure out if needed. Biggest factor would be to have a mil mil scope to use to full advantage.

Ffp or sfp is a personal choice. For my type of shooting Ffp would not help. I shoot known distance with no pressure to shoot. I prefer to have a mil mil scope with a good reticle. I rarely go off max power and when I do I go to 11x. I can still have my holdover and figure out settings with very little thought.

[gitrdun]

Long before I knew about such things as 1st or 2nd focal plane, I hunted with a Leopold 6x scope. After many years of pondering through such useless BS, I've reverted back to scoping my latest rifle acquisition with that very same scope and so happy with it.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Long before I knew about such things as 1st or 2nd focal plane, I hunted with a Leopold 6x scope. After many years of pondering through such useless BS, I've reverted back to scoping my latest rifle acquisition with that very same scope and so happy with it.

6X works danged well!

Cat

[Jordan Smith]

FFP or fixed for me. SFP is just one more thing to distract a guy when the pressure's on and the wind is blowing.

[markg]

I now have a FFP scope (Vortex Razor HD Gen II) with the EBRC 1 reticle. It works very well. I was able to put the first focal plane feature to the test. I shot a group then used the mills on the reticle to determine how many clicks i needed to zero. Guess what? It was bang on!

I have no desire to use it for ranging but i think there are things about the first focal plane that will be handy.

[FishHunterPro]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

I don't see the benefit of a ffp scope myself. The retical covers the target on high mag and on low mag you just can't aim tight enough.

Ya this was my thinking also when I chose sfp for target shooting .