Why the big fascination with First focal plane

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

I mentioned 140 yards just to emphasize that misses happen, regardless of the range. When they happen at LR, spotting shots is critical. When shooting game at LR a guy really should have a spotter, but if not, it is very possible to spot your own shots and measure the correction using your reticle. I do it all the time on steel. I spot my own shots on game, too, even if I have a spotter, since two people watching the bullet impact is better than one, but one is better than none.

Your scenario of not having a spotter is where an FFP reticle in the Shooter's scope becomes even more useful, being that he is his own spotter

If the thought of having to shoot again, using a correction based on missing a shot, even entered my mind, I wouldn't attempt that shot on an animal.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the thought of having to shoot again, using a correction based on missing a shot, even entered my mind, I wouldn't attempt that shot on an animal.

You must not shoot very many animals.

R.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Rman

You must not shoot very many animals.

R.

I have shot my share, I jusr didn't take any shots, while planning on a second shot.

[Jordan Smith]

Rman,

Exactly. If we only ever took shots, regardless of the distance, that we were 100% sure were going to hit the mark, we would all take VERY few shots. Unless your muzzle is sticking in the ribs of the critter, you can never be 100% sure that you're going to make a hit. If you're relying on technology for success, there is a chance of failure. Even at 200 yards, your scope could have gotten bumped some time prior to the shot, you could have accidentally thrown a squib load, the animal could move at the last second, etc, etc. Misses happen. We have to accept that risk when we choose to hunt. I just prefer to prepare for whatever misses I can prepare for, by having a spotter there to give me a correction if needed. And for the record, I've never missed an animal that I've shot at LR yet (knock on wood!), but I like to practice with a spotter, and have a spotter when I'm hunting where a LR shot is likely, for the same reason that I like to use a magazine-fed rifle with 3 or 4 rounds in the mag- I usually just need 1, but I like to have the other 2 or 3 just in case I ever need them.

Even when you're 98% confident that a shot will be a hit, whether 250 yards or 750, there is still a 2% chance that you'll miss, need to make a correction, and take a second shot.

It comes down to the old Scout motto: "Be prepared".

[Rman]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have shot my share, I jusr didn't take any shots, while planning on a second shot.

I don't think anyone wants to take a second shot, but if you're not even planning about it, you should be...

R.

[tchardy1972]

You boys are preaching to deaf ears. Elkhunter 11 never misses, he never screws up, and he is never wrong. The man is practically god. At least in his eyes.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

you boys are preaching to deaf ears. Elkhunter 11 never misses, he never screws up, and he is never wrong. The man is practically god. At least in his eyes.

amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[marxman]

i hear ya elk the whole scenario is clumsy and far fetched especially if the animals are not in front of a berm i wouldnt even plan for it ffp for what it is not for pie in the sky

[Jordan Smith]

I guess in some people's eyes, if they can't do something, then nobody else should be able to either. Sorry marxman, that's just not how it works. I'm sorry that you're not able to take advantage of the technology and hardware available, but some people can. What seems "clumsy" and "far fetched" to you, is a stark reality for those who prepare and put in the time/money to pop the requisite number of primers so that LR shots are just as plausible as short range ones. And some hardware is better for that purpose than other hardware. FFP reticles are useful at short range as well (larger, bolder reticle when shooting in failing light), not just LR.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

You boys are preaching to deaf ears. Elkhunter 11 never misses, he never screws up, and he is never wrong. The man is practically god. At least in his eyes.

Of course I miss from time to time, but I only take high percentage shots on animals, to keep the misses to an absolute minimum. I would rather pass up a lower percentage shot, than plan on making a second shot based on where the first shot impacted. If you purchase your equipment,based on making a follow up shot after a miss on an animal, then you must be accepting the fact that you take shots at animals where misses happen more regularly than is acceptable to many people.

[twofifty]

Seems like FFP would be just the ticket to make immediate 2nd shot corrections on long range target work - paper, steel, prairies dogs - where the ground is dry enough to show the fall of shot. Or for big game under the same dry soil conditions.

[Jordan Smith]

elk,

So I guess you only buy single-shot rifles? Otherwise, you're buying gear based on making a follow-up shot after a miss.

I further suppose that you never shoot at moving, much less running, game, never take shots near dusk, and never shoot beyond 200 yards where the wind can begin to play havoc? You must also never shoot if there is more than a faint lick of wind? A 50 yard rested shot is a much higher-percentage shot than a 150 yard shot from kneeling. Does that mean that you would pass up a 150 yard shot from the kneeling position at a deer or elk because shooting from a rested position at 50 yards has a higher chance of success? How many guys would pass up that shot and stalk closer until they get within 50 yards? Or why stop there, why not stalk to 20 yards? If we're going for the highest-probability shot possible?

I would venture to say that a 550 yard shot with no wind and good conditions is a higher-probability shot for some guys on here, than a 75 yard shot at running game is for most, or even a 300 yard shot at still game in a moderate wind. Somehow we never talk about passing up shots at moving game, or shots in a moderate wind, in the interest of keeping misses to a minimum?

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by twofifty

Seems like FFP would be just the ticket to make immediate 2nd shot corrections on long range target work - paper, steel, prairies dogs - where the ground is dry enough to show the fall of shot. Or for big game under the same dry soil conditions.

Yup. But seeing the impact signature isn't even required when you or your spotter can watch the vapour trail and determine POI that way.

[twofifty]

Now that you mention it, I've spotted at smallbore metallic silhouette matches and have clearly seen -under slanting sunlight- the glint of 40gr rounds falling into the target area.

[elkhunter11]

So I guess you only buy single-shot rifles? Otherwise, you're buying gear based on making a follow-up shot after a miss.

Actually there are other possibilities, as in a follow up shot after a fatal hit, just to stop the animal sooner. There is also the possibility of multiple animals. The other possibility, is that many rifles, are only available as repeaters.

I would venture to say that a 550 yard shot with no wind and good conditions is a higher-probability shot for some guys on here, than a 75 yard shot at running game is for most, or even a 300 yard shot at still game in a moderate wind.

If you consider the shot to be high probability, then would a a miss not be extremely unlikely, just as unlikely as having to make a correction, in order to take a follow up shot? If it's that unlikely, then why would you choose your equipment based on that extremely low possibility?

I see plenty of people making corrections based on misses when shooting targets at the range, I do it myself when shooting targets, with my lighter recoiling rifles because I see it as a valuable learning technique. However I don't use this technique on live animals. As well, my big game rifles produce too much recoil to keep the scope on the target when fired. For those reasons, a FFP scope is of little value to me.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

I would venture to say that a 550 yard shot with no wind and good conditions is a higher-probability shot for some guys on here, than a 75 yard shot at running game is for most, or even a 300 yard shot at still game in a moderate wind. Somehow we never talk about passing up shots at moving game, or shots in a moderate wind, in the interest of keeping misses to a minimum?

What difference does it make what the distance is or if the animal is moving or stationary? If we are taking shots that there is a low percentage of hitting the animal maybe it shouldn't be shot at, doesn't matter if it is a mile away or 25 yds running. I know guys who will never take a shot at a running animal up close, yet are comfortable shooting a stationary one at 600 yds, then there are those who are pretty darn good at hitting a running animal up close but wouldn't dream of shooting one standing at 400 yds. I think Elkhunter is saying to take shots that are pretty much guaranteed, shots your are comfortable with and within your ability to make the majority of the time. Ethics and empathy for the animal go a long way in most hunters circles.

Yes these people ARE interested in keeping misses to a minimum. There are lots of hunters that pass up shots all the time, in fact these people are the majority of hunters out there, and when they tell you they passed up a shot on a walking 200" B&C buck at 200 yds they just may be telling the truth. Some folks don't comprehend passing up such a shot but people do it all the time. We owe it to the animal to stack the odds pretty highly in favor of making a successful humane shot. Otherwise pass on the shot. Nobody's perfect but some try harder than others. There are far too many people out there just itching to unload rounds no matter their abilities, just hoping if they shoot at enough animals sooner or later they will actually hit one.

[Bergerboy]

If you take shots that you have practiced and are competent that you can make, do 'em. If its something you have not done....don't. There is no rule of thumb of what should be taken and what should not as the skill level between different shooters varies quite a bit. This is why some people choose to hone their skills at longer ranges than they expect to shoot and do things like put targets in tires, roll them down hills for practice estimating lead.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

What difference does it make what the distance is or if the animal is moving or stationary? If we are taking shots that there is a low percentage of hitting the animal maybe it shouldn't be shot at, doesn't matter if it is a mile away or 25 yds running. I know guys who will never take a shot at a running animal up close, yet are comfortable shooting a stationary one at 600 yds, then there are those who are pretty darn good at hitting a running animal up close but wouldn't dream of shooting one standing at 400 yds. I think Elkhunter is saying to take shots that are pretty much guaranteed, shots your are comfortable with and within your ability to make the majority of the time. Ethics and empathy for the animal go a long way in most hunters circles.

Yes these people ARE interested in keeping misses to a minimum. There are lots of hunters that pass up shots all the time, in fact these people are the majority of hunters out there, and when they tell you they passed up a shot on a walking 200" B&C buck at 200 yds they just may be telling the truth. Some folks don't comprehend passing up such a shot but people do it all the time. We owe it to the animal to stack the odds pretty highly in favor of making a successful humane shot. Otherwise pass on the shot. Nobody's perfect but some try harder than others. There are far too many people out there just itching to unload rounds no matter their abilities, just hoping if they shoot at enough animals sooner or later they will actually hit one.

Exactly my point. Take only the shots on animals that you feel very confident that you can make, regardless of the distance, or the conditions. If you want to impress someone with how far you can hit something at, use a target to do this, not a live animal.

If you take shots that you have practiced and are competent that you can make, do 'em.

And if you are so confident that you can make the shot, you shouldn't be planning the second shot, before taking the first shot.

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

What difference does it make what the distance is or if the animal is moving or stationary? If we are taking shots that there is a low percentage of hitting the animal maybe it shouldn't be shot at, doesn't matter if it is a mile away or 25 yds running. I know guys who will never take a shot at a running animal up close, yet are comfortable shooting a stationary one at 600 yds, then there are those who are pretty darn good at hitting a running animal up close but wouldn't dream of shooting one standing at 400 yds. I think Elkhunter is saying to take shots that are pretty much guaranteed, shots your are comfortable with and within your ability to make the majority of the time. Ethics and empathy for the animal go a long way in most hunters circles.

Yes these people ARE interested in keeping misses to a minimum. There are lots of hunters that pass up shots all the time, in fact these people are the majority of hunters out there, and when they tell you they passed up a shot on a walking 200" B&C buck at 200 yds they just may be telling the truth. Some folks don't comprehend passing up such a shot but people do it all the time. We owe it to the animal to stack the odds pretty highly in favor of making a successful humane shot. Otherwise pass on the shot. Nobody's perfect but some try harder than others. There are far too many people out there just itching to unload rounds no matter their abilities, just hoping if they shoot at enough animals sooner or later they will actually hit one.

This is exactly my point. My questions were largely rhetorical to illustrate the fact that distance isn't the only factor that affects hit probabilities, yet for some reason there is a small group of antagonists that dog pile on anybody who mentions shooting game at long range, but make no mention of low-percentage shots that people take, beyond their abilities, at running game, or in extremely strong wind conditions, etc. Taking shots that a guy is very confident in making, while being well prepared, through practice, for when things go wrong. Not if they go wrong, but when. A wise man once said that a man who says that he's never missed an animal, is either a liar, or he hasn't shot much game. Being prepared through proper practice for when that miss comes, is equally wise.

I've passed up my share of shots on game, for various reasons, but proper practice extends your personal comfort range, so that distances that you previously considered low percentage and unethical, become comfortable and high probability shots.

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If you consider the shot to be high probability, then would a a miss not be extremely unlikely, just as unlikely as having to make a correction, in order to take a follow up shot? If it's that unlikely, then why would you choose your equipment based on that extremely low possibility?

For the same reason that I choose to load 5 rounds in the magazine. Just in case. And also because there's no downside to using a well-designed FFP reticle. I'd rather increase my repertoire of abilities and skills through practice with the most efficient and effective equipment possible, than to choose not to.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

For those reasons, a FFP scope is of little value to me.

Fair enough. I'm not going to force feed you. Carry on using whatever makes you feel good. Just know that there are some very legitimate reasons for using FFP reticles, both on targets and on game.

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by twofifty

Now that you mention it, I've spotted at smallbore metallic silhouette matches and have clearly seen -under slanting sunlight- the glint of 40gr rounds falling into the target area.

Example. Excuse the video quality, but here is a series of shots fired at an 8" steel target. You can clearly see the bullet trace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPKuISGr184

[sikwhiskey]

Jordan, thanks for the write up.
For the rest, why is it always a ****ing match? don't like it, never needed it, then don't use it. It's a tool, used correctly can be an advantage... Or not depending upon the user.
Something else I'll add; the cross hair in a FFP scope cover then same amount of target at low power, as it does at high power. The cross hairs remain constant with the image, high or low mag, for those who get it, it's a wonder full thing especially hunting coyotes. Now if I could only find a light weight FFP scope in a 3x9x 40...... Lol

[Jordan Smith]

Not overly light weight, but it's a 3-9x42 with FFP reticle



3x



6x



9x

[raab]

Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

Rman,

Exactly. If we only ever took shots, regardless of the distance, that we were 100% sure were going to hit the mark, we would all take VERY few shots. Unless your muzzle is sticking in the ribs of the critter, you can never be 100% sure that you're going to make a hit. If you're relying on technology for success, there is a chance of failure. Even at 200 yards, your scope could have gotten bumped some time prior to the shot, you could have accidentally thrown a squib load, the animal could move at the last second, etc, etc. Misses happen. We have to accept that risk when we choose to hunt. I just prefer to prepare for whatever misses I can prepare for, by having a spotter there to give me a correction if needed. And for the record, I've never missed an animal that I've shot at LR yet (knock on wood!), but I like to practice with a spotter, and have a spotter when I'm hunting where a LR shot is likely, for the same reason that I like to use a magazine-fed rifle with 3 or 4 rounds in the mag- I usually just need 1, but I like to have the other 2 or 3 just in case I ever need them.

Even when you're 98% confident that a shot will be a hit, whether 250 yards or 750, there is still a 2% chance that you'll miss, need to make a correction, and take a second shot.

It comes down to the old Scout motto: "Be prepared".

This is my way of thinking as well. And even if your 100% confident you hit a kill shot it shouldn't matter. I've had deer shot in the lungs run 200M+ into thick bush which can make it next to impossible to find the deer. For me personally as long as the animal is standing and not in a run I'm shooting because I want to recover that animal asap after the initial shot. I don't enjoy walking around for 2 hours after sundown with flashlights to not end up finding the animal, only to come back the next morning and see that the coyotes and crows got to it.

[gopher]

Swatting a big game animal on the ground sure sounds tough would love to see all these ethics in a goose pit.

Spray and pray all day long!

[gtr]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

You boys are preaching to deaf ears. Elkhunter 11 never misses, he never screws up, and he is never wrong. The man is practically god. At least in his eyes.

He is way above God.

[marxman]

Originally Posted by gtr

He is way above God.

i dont know why the thread ran out of gas on this great point

[gtr]

I think the OP question was answered on the first page.Use your imagination.

[Ivo]

The problem with these threads is that they always get diverted from fact ie. FFP is just a tool with some benefits that may or may not be useful to your style of shooting to... somebodies ******* opinion ie. FFP is pointless or the reticle is too big blah blah blah

There are many uses for FFP that someone can take advantage of if they know how to use it. Weather somebody agrees with the ethics of those uses doesn't matter as it does not change the fact that it can be beneficial if you want it to be.

The long range hunting crowd always comes under attack when someone believes that it is not repeatable, reliable or questionable. For the guys that shoot long range, it becomes evident pretty quickly what YOUR effective range is with that particular firearm, under the conditions in which you are shooting.

When you are out hunting, it is YOUR responsibility to assess the situation weather you should attempt a shot, try to get closer(if possible) or pass. Again, most guys that practice long range shooting know before they even pull a rangefinder out weather or not that shot is a good idea or not.

[southernman]

This was a good informative thread, until Rman and couple others dragged it of by slanging off elkhunter,
Thanks Jordan for your info, I am still learning about this system, and your posts were insightfull.